General Discussion

JHan

(10,173 posts)

27. The problem is not that he ran..

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 08:45 PM

Dec 2016

The problem is that he chose to attack the party he wanted to nominate him.

He kept framing "the establishment" as corrupt - in the incumbent year of a Democrat President who is part of the establishment. And then he framed Clinton as corrupt. Look at the silliness over the minimum wage - If anyone didn't agree with it being $15 they weren't looking out for the people..or not in touch with the working class..

this was damaging, it understandably upset Democrats and it gave Trump more ammo to attack the same "establishment" represented by Obama. It was political fail 101.

No Democrat would use this strategy to get a nomination. And now we see the fallout - in these very forums.

When I switched my support to HRC around April, I got serious abuse from berniacs, and bernie supporters I knew. It persisted even after the convention.

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Criticizing the DLC, the Third Way and the Blue Dogs is not "bashing Democrats". [View all] Ken Burch Dec 2016 OP

?? juxtaposed Dec 2016 #1

I think there was a hidden post ToxMarz Dec 2016 #5

No, I'll just wait and see how bad this op becomes. juxtaposed Dec 2016 #14

Why the popcorn? Crunchy Frog Dec 2016 #122

Because dumbcat Dec 2016 #131

What, have we become the "Third Way Underground" now? Crunchy Frog Dec 2016 #154

Makes sense to me. nt el_bryanto Dec 2016 #2

I don't think the issue was criticizing the DLC, the Third Way and the Blue dogs. ToxMarz Dec 2016 #3

Nobody is "bashing" them. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #9

It has also been morphed... GummyBearz Dec 2016 #18

But only in one direction. Marr Dec 2016 #23

Correct (n/t) GummyBearz Dec 2016 #25

Eleven posts in, and its about Process and terminology. Democrats. Eleanors38 Dec 2016 #133

Yep jack_krass Dec 2016 #142

Posts suggesting Hillary was to some extent responsible for losing the Electoral vote vanish JudyM Dec 2016 #196

Give recent examples of third way politics over the last 8 years - what did you have in mind? JHan Dec 2016 #4

It doesn't matter whether they played a specific role in the last 8 years. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #17

I forgot Rahm existed... JHan Dec 2016 #24

The polls that show most Americans labeling themselves as "moderate" Ken Burch Dec 2016 #138

Ok, fair enough.. JHan Dec 2016 #160

If nothing else, we should make future trade proposals include public participation in the process. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #161

The goal of the DNC, DSCC and the DCCC is to nominate candidates who can win Gothmog Dec 2016 #128

No, there's nothing wrong with trying to win. We're all trying to do that. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #135

Goal, good. Results, reek. Eleanors38 Dec 2016 #136

Have you ever tried recruiting a candidate to run for office? Gothmog Dec 2016 #137

Only on ocassion have I recruited; he lost by 37 votes to the "estab" liberal... Eleanors38 Dec 2016 #141

Theres something wrong when you have to lie cheat and rig elections to win jack_krass Dec 2016 #146

The Myth of the All Powerful DNC Gothmog Dec 2016 #153

Thanks...... because if I see one more silly claim about "rigging"... JHan Dec 2016 #158

Are you also so dismissive of peoples concerns regarding the trump "victory" jack_krass Dec 2016 #164

I had to endure a year of silly accusations of millions of votes being "Rigged"... JHan Dec 2016 #165

I dont think there was election fraud. And I do think there are parallels to the GE jack_krass Dec 2016 #166

After Super Tuesday, Clinton had a delegate lead that Sanders could not over come Gothmog Dec 2016 #169

Not all powerfull, but certainly not powerless or insignificant. Somewhere in between jack_krass Dec 2016 #163

The claim that the DNC fixed the race for Sanders is wrong and was used to hurt Clinton by Trump Gothmog Dec 2016 #168

And the "rigged" myth persisted and fell neatly into Trump's claims of "rigging" .. JHan Dec 2016 #172

No, The Systems Not Totally Rigged. But That Idea Sure Helped Donald Trump. Gothmog Dec 2016 #193

agreed /nt JHan Dec 2016 #194

The DNC favored HRC over BS, and attempted to swaw/rig/influence the result of the primary jack_krass Dec 2016 #177

Denial is not just a river in Africa Gothmog Dec 2016 #178

The DNC favored HRC over BS, and attempted to swawrig/influence the result of the primary jack_krass Dec 2016 #180

Do you really believe this? The math says that you are wrong Gothmog Dec 2016 #181

In the real world that claim has no merit Gothmog Dec 2016 #199

Never said the DNC was all powerfull, I said the DNC favored HRC and rigged the primary in her favor jack_krass Dec 2016 #202

Again, that claim has no merit in the real world Gothmog Dec 2016 #203

Never claimed the DNC decided the outcome. I said the DNC favored HRC and rigged the primary in her jack_krass Dec 2016 #204

That supposed favoritism did not exist and did not play a role in Sanders' defeat Gothmog Dec 2016 #205

The superdelegates were a kind of rigging. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #192

Again your attempt at analysis is simply wrong and the facts do not back your assertions up Gothmog Dec 2016 #195

Sure, the fight over the ACA Warpy Dec 2016 #59

...that was grinder politics.. JHan Dec 2016 #61

You asked, I supplied Warpy Dec 2016 #64

The point is.. JHan Dec 2016 #67

On support for Obama: I found it nearly impossible to support him on ACA... Eleanors38 Dec 2016 #139

You're not the first I've heard describe it that way... JHan Dec 2016 #157

What you say is true, but worse, he should have appealed to his supporters... Eleanors38 Dec 2016 #179

Criticizing sanders with facts is not "bashing the Dems". Cha Dec 2016 #6

i see what you did there lol JHan Dec 2016 #7

Right.. it goes both ways. I know he's considered one on this Cha Dec 2016 #10

Criticize all you want. When he dies, do his ideas die as well? Eleanors38 Dec 2016 #143

That's because Sanders is not a Dem meow2u3 Dec 2016 #8

Yes, but I didn't mean it that way.. he's considered in Cha Dec 2016 #12

Criticizing him isn't...treating him as an enemy that the party should try to crush IS, though. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #11

Criticizing him with facts is not bashing. Cha Dec 2016 #13

There were no "facts" that made his candidacy illegimate. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #22

Criticizing BS with FACTS is not "bashing". Cha Dec 2016 #44

Cha, what exactly are those FACTS you speak of? hedda_foil Dec 2016 #89

No worries.. you can insult me all you want.. it Cha Dec 2016 #91

Really? Where? Gothmog Dec 2016 #130

What is not good are sweeping generalizations Justice Dec 2016 #145

Yeah he did Ken.. he did, he played his part in dividing the party.. JHan Dec 2016 #15

He couldn't have stayed out of the race when millions were begging him to run. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #21

The problem is not that he ran.. JHan Dec 2016 #27

It bothered SOME Democrats-not "Democrats" as a group. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #35

Corruption is being used too loosely where I've lost track of its meaning.. JHan Dec 2016 #48

People objected to the constant refrain mcar Dec 2016 #54

Right! JHan Dec 2016 #62

Yep mcar Dec 2016 #78

Sanders attacks on Clinton were really unneeded and hurt the party Gothmog Dec 2016 #132

He drove a wedge in the party by smearing Dems and allies ONLY because they did not support him... bettyellen Dec 2016 #28

Millions were begging him to run??? NanceGreggs Dec 2016 #55

I didn't call him "the LAST great hope"...And I'm not disputing Hillary's popular vote margin Ken Burch Dec 2016 #84

Your own words, Ken ... NanceGreggs Dec 2016 #88

OK...to start with Ken Burch Dec 2016 #92

I'm done here, Ken. NanceGreggs Dec 2016 #93

I meant that it would have been HIM having to give up. Not everyone else. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #94

"What other options existed, other than just vanishing? " NastyRiffraff Dec 2016 #99

He HAD done his job. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #104

Denial is not just a river in Africa Gothmog Dec 2016 #151

It wasn't obvious that Bernie wouldn't be the nominee. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #162

You are wrong again Gothmog Dec 2016 #167

+ about a million NastyRiffraff Dec 2016 #98

There were no millions begging Sanders to run Gothmog Dec 2016 #150

Exactly. n/t NanceGreggs Dec 2016 #156

I am amazed by this claim Gothmog Dec 2016 #174

"millions were begging him to run"?? He even admitted (indeed, shoved it down our throats)..... George II Dec 2016 #101

You are using facts against a silly talking point Gothmog Dec 2016 #171

Well, it's been five days so I guess you're right. George II Dec 2016 #173

I am still waiting for proof of the millions who begged Sanders to run Gothmog Dec 2016 #170

Ok, a huge number of people. There was something huge and real there. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #183

You are wrong yet again Gothmog Dec 2016 #184

I supported Hillary in the fall. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #185

Your posts do not support your amusing but wrong claims Gothmog Dec 2016 #186

It's not an answer to just keep saying "the math...the math...the math" Ken Burch Dec 2016 #187

You are totally wrong yet again Gothmog Dec 2016 #188

You are not entitled to condescend to me, or to anyone else. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #189

I have the facts backing up my position Gothmog Dec 2016 #190

Actually, you simply have interpretation. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #191

WOW-you are stilll wrong-the facts do support my claims Gothmog Dec 2016 #197

So you have no proof and we are to take your word for this? Gothmog Dec 2016 #198

Hillary had no chance, not in a year like this one. alarimer Dec 2016 #30

She lost to Obama, in her earlier "annointed" status, and couldn't carry Florida... Eleanors38 Dec 2016 #147

Bernie Sanders didn't divide the party. It has been divided since the shift right in the 1980s. Gore1FL Dec 2016 #76

Good stuff Eleanors38 Dec 2016 #144

If Bernie would have been our candidate madokie Dec 2016 #38

That your opinion. Opinions are not facts. Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Dec 2016 #46

Whatever madokie Dec 2016 #50

Right.. there was never any oppo research done on BS.. his fans Cha Dec 2016 #80

Sanders would have been killed in the general election Gothmog Dec 2016 #176

One of my all time favorite posts. NCTraveler Dec 2016 #60

The same is true with Warren. nt Gore1FL Dec 2016 #77

Fake Fact otohara Dec 2016 #119

Damm straight jack_krass Dec 2016 #155

Sanders would have been a very weak general election candidate Gothmog Dec 2016 #175

I don't think 'facts' mean what you think it means. /nt Marr Dec 2016 #20

Well said. riversedge Dec 2016 #32

Thank you, rivers.. lol@those who accuse me of not Cha Dec 2016 #40

Agreed Gothmog Dec 2016 #129

Post removed Post removed Dec 2016 #16

Well GummyBearz Dec 2016 #19

Same here. alarimer Dec 2016 #31

That is a problem for some here and also at JPR. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #26

No, it isn't and I'm getting tired of this. alarimer Dec 2016 #29

The DLC? What is this, 2004? lol Drunken Irishman Dec 2016 #33

It is when the terms have been turned into ridiculous memes ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #34

The DLC Closed in 2011 otohara Dec 2016 #36

Did then ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #42

You lump Democrats into tidy little packages and whack away KittyWampus Dec 2016 #37

I don't whack away at anyone. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #70

I hope you know the DLC disbanded on February 7, 2011 Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Dec 2016 #39

And it's effects kcdoug1 Dec 2016 #47

Your boogie man in other words Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Dec 2016 #52

Yeah, but here we have to perseverate on a non existent mcar Dec 2016 #57

The wrong-headed strategy, unfortunately, did not disband with it. Gore1FL Dec 2016 #79

Are you calling Obama DLC? Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Dec 2016 #81

He is way more moderate than I had hoped for. Gore1FL Dec 2016 #82

So's the rest of the country Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Dec 2016 #86

Post removed Post removed Dec 2016 #90

Post removed Post removed Dec 2016 #95

I would be pleading for sympathy for this horse DFW Dec 2016 #41

Post removed Post removed Dec 2016 #43

I'm sure LWolf Dec 2016 #45

It does kcdoug1 Dec 2016 #49

When it's the big "D" LWolf Dec 2016 #96

Hell, I wonder what "Underground" means. Eleanors38 Dec 2016 #148

Criticism is not the problem ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #51

I keep asking ... JHan Dec 2016 #56

It's part of my somewhat incoherent rant above ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #58

I don't know why you can't "get" neoliberalism, LWolf Dec 2016 #97

I'm not denying reality JHan Dec 2016 #110

Bullshit. LWolf Dec 2016 #116

stick a pin in it... JHan Dec 2016 #117

lol LWolf Dec 2016 #120

So you got nothing more for me... JHan Dec 2016 #121

I've got plenty more LWolf Dec 2016 #123

So nothing then..okay. JHan Dec 2016 #124

No... LWolf Dec 2016 #125

OK...here's what it means Ken Burch Dec 2016 #105

Answered some of this here:.. JHan Dec 2016 #111

By "pro-business", I wasn't referring to policies regarding SMALL business; Ken Burch Dec 2016 #113

Yes I acknowledge corporatist hegemony but.. JHan Dec 2016 #114

I'm open to that, and I think a lot of people on the left would be. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #115

Yep, I agree with most of that...if done smart... JHan Dec 2016 #118

Then make the argument without attacking the individual. NCTraveler Dec 2016 #53

I referenced the individual because that was a thread ABOUT an individual. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #65

It's simply the standard you outlined in your op. NCTraveler Dec 2016 #66

I posted that(which I deleted already) because I had just been accused Ken Burch Dec 2016 #69

It being a response negates nothing. NCTraveler Dec 2016 #71

If an individual is the subject of a discussion, you HAVE to reference that individual Ken Burch Dec 2016 #72

No, YOU have to do it in this manner. NCTraveler Dec 2016 #73

It depends on how you do it. Sometimes it IS bashing. n/t pnwmom Dec 2016 #63

The DLC are Democrats, "Third Way" for the most part are Democrats, and Blue Dogs... George II Dec 2016 #68

You're not a Democrat if you think social spending should be cut Ken Burch Dec 2016 #106

What Democratic President has cut social spending? If you're concerned about cuts.... George II Dec 2016 #107

Carter and Clinton BOTH cut it. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #108

Well, spending was cut during their administrations, I agree. George II Dec 2016 #112

Right now, the Democratic party is very, very weak elmac Dec 2016 #74

You're right. The Party is very weak. Americans cannot abide weakness. Eleanors38 Dec 2016 #149

Seems to me as if the problem lies in making ad hominem-style attacks on a group of people. spooky3 Dec 2016 #75

I didn't care what you thought before the election and I don't care now leftofcool Dec 2016 #83

It isn't about ME as an individual. Never has been. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #85

Right, because one ought to cut off their nose to spite their face Cary Dec 2016 #87

Constructive Criticism Is Usually Needed colsohlibgal Dec 2016 #100

What another No Shit Sherlock moment FreakinDJ Dec 2016 #102

well the constant criticism is not good treestar Dec 2016 #103

Well I just had two juries hide my posts killbotfactory Dec 2016 #109

There is a vocal contingent virulently opposed to any objective analysis of the party establishment. Act_of_Reparation Dec 2016 #126

Your analysis is totally wrong and sad. Gothmog Dec 2016 #127

They just need to step aside now and let others lead the way. Rex Dec 2016 #134

The first person I think of coco22 Dec 2016 #140

Legit constructive criticism of the right, center, and the progressive wing of the party is fine. hrmjustin Dec 2016 #152

Poor horse. Nt NCTraveler Dec 2016 #159

Damn. This keeps popping up. NCTraveler Dec 2016 #182

Completely making up lies about them are La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2016 #200

Either we see a swarm of new voters in two years Eliot Rosewater Dec 2016 #201