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BzaDem

(11,142 posts)
Sun Dec 11, 2016, 11:20 PM Dec 2016

The electoral college [View all]

I'm seeing many posts here arguing that we should support electors changing their votes to elect Hillary, or a non-Trump Republican, to the office of the presidency.

Presumably, everyone OK with this idea would be completely fine if Hillary won the EC, and the electors threw it to Trump regardless. (Note the chances of this prior to the election were actually higher than the chances of the reverse, given all available information.) I suppose the argument would be that the election we pretend to have is just a convenient fiction that we have, prior to the actual selection of President by 538 power-brokers that no one has ever met. What those 538 electors say is what goes, voters be damned.

But if you subscribe to that argument, I wonder what your thoughts are on the following scenario. Imagine that Hillary won enough states to put her over the top, without any electors switching their votes. But then imagine that when Congress met on January 6th to count the votes, they "miscounted", and decided that Trump actually was the victor. Note that Congress' role in counting the electoral votes is not subject to review by the judicial branch, or any other higher power. According to the Constitution, what Congress says is what goes.

You might say that this hypothetical is different. The people would rise up, to prevent our country from becoming a banana republic. Whether or not that is actually true, what makes you think anything different would happen if the no-name electors reversed the verdict of the people on November 8th?

Ultimately, when it comes to the transition of power, longstanding norms are what govern -- not arcane technical arguments. Both parties agree to be bound in advance by the result of a process that is out of their full control. The norm of following the results of the election is ultimately one that both parties have observed since the founding of this country. Both sides agree to this, in part because they realize that having a title such as "president" doesn't really mean much if people do not respect the legitimacy of a clear winner of the process everyone understood in advance. In a country where this norm is not ingrained, power would flow to the strongest, who would not be competing for our votes every fourth November.

In our system, you become president if you are the winner of the popular votes in states making up 270 electoral votes. (If the winner of one or more decisive states is not clear, the courts resolve the cases that come before them.) In this election, it is not remotely unclear who won. There is no credible evidence that any voting machines were hacked, much less enough voting machines to flip a state (much less enough voting machines to flip the three states HRC would need to win).

This does not make me happy. I am horrified by what is in store for us come January 20th. But I would be even more horrified by the result of living in a country where unambiguous election results are not respected. In fact, when comparing the two horrors, it is not even a close call. I'm sure many citizens of non-democratic countries would agree.

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The electoral college [View all] BzaDem Dec 2016 OP
This is not a typical election. duffyduff Dec 2016 #1
I'd rather worry about living in a country that overturned an "unambiguous" election result geomon666 Dec 2016 #2
What other criteria should invalidate the result of an election? BzaDem Dec 2016 #3
Our own intelligence community says Russia was involved in getting this guy elected. geomon666 Dec 2016 #5
"was involved in getting this guy elected" BzaDem Dec 2016 #6
A foreign government interfering with an election isn't a valid reason to overturn it? geomon666 Dec 2016 #7
Think this through. BzaDem Dec 2016 #11
it wasn't just the publishing of stolen emails. geomon666 Dec 2016 #16
There is no consensus that Russia orchestrated fake news. BzaDem Dec 2016 #19
"The exposure of information is not such a reason." geomon666 Dec 2016 #21
I'm not downplaying anything. BzaDem Dec 2016 #26
I never said they should decide differently. geomon666 Dec 2016 #41
If Russians assassinate someone that leads a political party Jean-Jacques Roussea Dec 2016 #30
I'm not sure about how that hypothetical relates to this thread BzaDem Dec 2016 #33
Welcome to the information age Jean-Jacques Roussea Dec 2016 #34
SMFH DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2016 #43
A realist.......Who knew?!! WillowTree Dec 2016 #4
Please understand the electors have a duty to protect our country... pbmus Dec 2016 #8
Voting against the winner of their state does exactly the opposite of protecting our country. BzaDem Dec 2016 #15
Your suppositions and assumptions are more than fatalistic.. pbmus Dec 2016 #23
I would LOVE for the electoral college to be abolished. BzaDem Dec 2016 #29
The rules that were universally acknowledged include the oath pbmus Dec 2016 #36
I'm not saying they are all legally bound to support him -- just that we will regret it if they dont BzaDem Dec 2016 #39
I totally disagree... In fact, we will regret it if they do support him.. pbmus Dec 2016 #40
Fuck that EricMaundry Dec 2016 #9
Trump is outright dangerous. Any mechanism that exists to prevent him from taking office 50 Shades Of Blue Dec 2016 #10
I don't think you really mean "any mechanism that exists." BzaDem Dec 2016 #13
An analogy is only as strong as it is on point. lapucelle Dec 2016 #12
Millions of people believe in the fantasy that HRC is not fit for office. BzaDem Dec 2016 #31
Your original question articulates a presumption about "everyone OK with this idea". lapucelle Dec 2016 #42
So which foreign power intervened on behalf of HRC? KamaAina Dec 2016 #14
Are you actually saying that any illegal publication of private information by a foreign government BzaDem Dec 2016 #17
No, I'm saying this goes far deeper than that. KamaAina Dec 2016 #18
If it were the case that a foreign government (or anyone else) caused a decisively-incorrect count BzaDem Dec 2016 #20
But flipping one state is plausible? KamaAina Dec 2016 #37
In a different, much closer election, the universe of potentially decisive events greatly expands BzaDem Dec 2016 #38
Why the electoral college should vote against Trump? kentuck Dec 2016 #22
They likely couldn't vote for Pence. They must pick from the top 3 EV vote-getters. BzaDem Dec 2016 #24
Interesting... kentuck Dec 2016 #25
Trump does not equal Clinton Jean-Jacques Roussea Dec 2016 #27
Would that be like co-Presidents?? kentuck Dec 2016 #28
Clinton doing the work and Trump being the hype man Jean-Jacques Roussea Dec 2016 #32
:)___% kentuck Dec 2016 #35
To answer your question if a foreign power installed HRC as president I could not countenance it./nt DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2016 #44
An intelligent post that sadly 99% of the people here will ignore or disagree with Lurks Often Dec 2016 #45
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