General Discussion

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)

18. There's no way to "cleave away" from the left and still be different from the right.

Reply to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #15)

Sat Dec 17, 2016, 05:26 AM

Dec 2016

As to the "European center-left", it's been in decline for decades now. Every "social democratic" party on the European mainland is stuck below 25% and id either in opposition or in a fairly pathetic "junior partner" status in a coalition with a center-right party, other than the "center-left" governing party of Italy, which is itself certain to suffer massive losses at the next general election there, and the "center-left" party in France which not only won't make it to the second round of the presidential election but may finish behind the further left party led by a former Communist.

And those "center-left" parties are, in every single case, governing on a right-wing program-massive cuts in social services, mearures that weaken job security and make it easier to lay people off, and anti-union legislation.

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Can we craft a stronger economic justice message WITHOUT throwing anyone under the bus? [View all] Ken Burch Dec 2016 OP

Most voters liked the Dem platform on economics. Wasn't number #1 issue. bettyellen Dec 2016 #1

Of course we can, elleng Dec 2016 #2

This isn't really the problem Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #3

People who know not of what they speak- shouldn't loyalsister Dec 2016 #5

You are right, of course, and thanks for the truth, but that poster won't listen. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #7

If your purpose on this planet is to breath life into the right's favorite Nixon era strawmen Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #11

What's the alternative? Are we supposed to say protest is intolerable? Ken Burch Dec 2016 #14

I am hardly fixated on this person Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #15

There's no way to "cleave away" from the left and still be different from the right. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #18

that is ridiculous Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #26

The issue is optics, there is no nuanced discussion to be had Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #9

We couldn't stand for anything progressive if we anathemized activists. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #13

We don't even have an opportunity to tailor our message in that way Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #16

There's no way to be progressive and disown the left at the same time. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #19

See: Europe Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #22

And every ''center-left" party in Europe is in long-term and irreversible decline. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #24

Who said anything about Stalinism? Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #25

There's no one to Corbyn's right who'd have Labour in a stronger place in the polls. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #36

Any Labour leader holding May firmly to account on Brexit would poll stronger Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #48

Long term and irreversible? Show us your crystal ball and we might believe that. stevenleser Dec 2016 #39

Not "an election or two"-a trend that goes back to at least 2000. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #42

No.Center Left has control of parliaments in France & Italy, part of government in Belgium & Germany stevenleser Dec 2016 #44

Hollande's party is way behind in the polls and has no chance of recovering before the next election Ken Burch Dec 2016 #45

After just winning an election in France. You can't claim what you wrote based on stevenleser Dec 2016 #46

Here is the polling in the run-up to the German election, which will happen this year: Ken Burch Dec 2016 #50

I think I have proven you wrong on all of that. But here is the bigger joke. What is the far left stevenleser Dec 2016 #59

Depends on what you mean by "far left" Ken Burch Dec 2016 #61

No, it doesn't. nt stevenleser Dec 2016 #62

No WHAT doesn't? Ken Burch Dec 2016 #64

The optics of protests tends to play into the right's narritive Trekologer Dec 2016 #31

Optics? loyalsister Dec 2016 #17

How do you propose changing that? Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #27

LBJ saw the southern strategy coming and stood on the right side of justice anyway loyalsister Dec 2016 #28

I'm not actually suggesting anything Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #29

that is probably an argument some southern Democrat made to LBJ loyalsister Dec 2016 #30

That was a very different situation Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #32

The topic was demonizing protesters loyalsister Dec 2016 #33

We don't have an opportunity to distance ourselves or demonize them Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #34

You either stand with them or you don't loyalsister Dec 2016 #37

It doesn't matter what we do, we are not a part of this. Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #38

No, the topic is, "Are protests now counterproductive?" The GOP seems to have a strategy stevenleser Dec 2016 #40

The original response I replied to was a photo demonizing a specific protester loyalsister Dec 2016 #47

Whether you choose to acknowledge this or not those types of images are a problem Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #49

So, the image of the opposition to oppress on is a problem? loyalsister Dec 2016 #51

being useful idiots for Roger Ailes is a problem Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #52

I know MU protesters personally loyalsister Dec 2016 #53

There is no progressive cause that is well served by helping elect Republicans Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #54

I think you're very confused about who helps republicans loyalsister Dec 2016 #55

I'm not the one who is confused Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #56

So what if they do loyalsister Dec 2016 #57

We're going in circles Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #60

Yes we are loyalsister Dec 2016 #63

How many threads have you spammed that post into today, Walter? Ken Burch Dec 2016 #6

You're talking about tailoring a message Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #8

Trump owns everyone on the right, most of whom are far scarier than one harmless faculty advisor. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #12

You're right, we can't gain votes doing that. We have no control of the narrative. Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #20

What were we suppose to do, have Hillary vilify the woman? Ken Burch Dec 2016 #21

I'm not suggesting we do that at all, don't even acknowledge them Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #23

Surely it's possible loyalsister Dec 2016 #4

Thanks, loyalsister. elleng Dec 2016 #10

Some of us can. ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #35

Yep. And I never expected that to be advocated by a group numbering more than 1 or 2 here. nt stevenleser Dec 2016 #41

Absolutely kcr Dec 2016 #43

We've got to throw the "haves" under the bus. ileus Dec 2016 #58