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Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
61. Depends on what you mean by "far left"
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 04:46 PM
Dec 2016

Syriza did get elected and re-elected(and they didn't abandon their principles, they were forced to put them aside by Merkel's arrogant stubbornness in forcing the Greek people to pay the debts incurred solely by the elites and the banks).

In Germany, the combined support for the Greens and Die Linke(BOTH of which are well to the left of the SPD)matches and sometimes exceeds the SPD's vote share.

In France, the Left Front candidate, Jean-Luc Melenchon, a former Socialist Party member(the sort who still supports socialism) is currently getting twice as much support in the polls as Manual Valls, the Blairite who's going to be the SP candidate. In the Irish Republic, Sinn Fein(yes, THAT Sinn Fein), which is committed to an anti-austerity program, is getting more than twice the support the Blairite Irish Labour Party is pulling in(Labour there is still stuck around 7% of the vote). In Spain, "Podemos", the anti-austerity party, is running even with or ahead of the PSOE(the old Spanish Socialists who haven't been remotely "socialist" since Felipe Gonzalez pointlessly yoked them to NATO and embraced "market values&quot . In Scotland, the Scottish National Party(running on a program that is anti-austerity AND anti-nuclear)all but wiped out Third Way Labour in Scottish constituencies at the 2015 UK general election.

There are many other parties to the left of the "center-left&quot and no, these parties can't be classified as "far left" in the sense that YOU would like to imply-none of them are Stalinist or apologists for North Korea or the Khmer Rouge) that have made consistent gains in most of Europe over the years.

If a party is NOT anti-austerity, if it is NOT for helping to strengthen the labor movement, if it is not for something close to peace, in what way can that party even be "center-left"? It hardly means anything that such a party might be pro-LGBTQ or antiracist, because that party can't be popular enough to get into power or stay in power long enough to preserve even those gains.

Who do you think a "center-left" party should fight FOR. steven(I use lower case for your name there because that's how YOU use it in the post)? Is it really worth even HAVING a "center-left" party if that party's program is reduced to nothing more than not being as nasty about building a more unequal society? Or about pretending that war CAN somehow still have progressive objectives?

Do you want the "center left" to be different from the right in any meaningful way? In any way that significantly helps people's lives? How can it be "center left" to say "history is over...nothing can ever really be much different than the way things are right now, and it's enough that it's US cutting your benefits and making your jobs less secure"? What can possibly be "center left" about being a pillar of the status quo?

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Most voters liked the Dem platform on economics. Wasn't number #1 issue. bettyellen Dec 2016 #1
Of course we can, elleng Dec 2016 #2
This isn't really the problem Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #3
People who know not of what they speak- shouldn't loyalsister Dec 2016 #5
You are right, of course, and thanks for the truth, but that poster won't listen. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #7
If your purpose on this planet is to breath life into the right's favorite Nixon era strawmen Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #11
What's the alternative? Are we supposed to say protest is intolerable? Ken Burch Dec 2016 #14
I am hardly fixated on this person Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #15
There's no way to "cleave away" from the left and still be different from the right. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #18
that is ridiculous Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #26
The issue is optics, there is no nuanced discussion to be had Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #9
We couldn't stand for anything progressive if we anathemized activists. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #13
We don't even have an opportunity to tailor our message in that way Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #16
There's no way to be progressive and disown the left at the same time. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #19
See: Europe Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #22
And every ''center-left" party in Europe is in long-term and irreversible decline. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #24
Who said anything about Stalinism? Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #25
There's no one to Corbyn's right who'd have Labour in a stronger place in the polls. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #36
Any Labour leader holding May firmly to account on Brexit would poll stronger Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #48
Long term and irreversible? Show us your crystal ball and we might believe that. stevenleser Dec 2016 #39
Not "an election or two"-a trend that goes back to at least 2000. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #42
No.Center Left has control of parliaments in France & Italy, part of government in Belgium & Germany stevenleser Dec 2016 #44
Hollande's party is way behind in the polls and has no chance of recovering before the next election Ken Burch Dec 2016 #45
After just winning an election in France. You can't claim what you wrote based on stevenleser Dec 2016 #46
Here is the polling in the run-up to the German election, which will happen this year: Ken Burch Dec 2016 #50
I think I have proven you wrong on all of that. But here is the bigger joke. What is the far left stevenleser Dec 2016 #59
Depends on what you mean by "far left" Ken Burch Dec 2016 #61
No, it doesn't. nt stevenleser Dec 2016 #62
No WHAT doesn't? Ken Burch Dec 2016 #64
The optics of protests tends to play into the right's narritive Trekologer Dec 2016 #31
Optics? loyalsister Dec 2016 #17
How do you propose changing that? Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #27
LBJ saw the southern strategy coming and stood on the right side of justice anyway loyalsister Dec 2016 #28
I'm not actually suggesting anything Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #29
that is probably an argument some southern Democrat made to LBJ loyalsister Dec 2016 #30
That was a very different situation Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #32
The topic was demonizing protesters loyalsister Dec 2016 #33
We don't have an opportunity to distance ourselves or demonize them Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #34
You either stand with them or you don't loyalsister Dec 2016 #37
It doesn't matter what we do, we are not a part of this. Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #38
No, the topic is, "Are protests now counterproductive?" The GOP seems to have a strategy stevenleser Dec 2016 #40
The original response I replied to was a photo demonizing a specific protester loyalsister Dec 2016 #47
Whether you choose to acknowledge this or not those types of images are a problem Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #49
So, the image of the opposition to oppress on is a problem? loyalsister Dec 2016 #51
being useful idiots for Roger Ailes is a problem Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #52
I know MU protesters personally loyalsister Dec 2016 #53
There is no progressive cause that is well served by helping elect Republicans Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #54
I think you're very confused about who helps republicans loyalsister Dec 2016 #55
I'm not the one who is confused Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #56
So what if they do loyalsister Dec 2016 #57
We're going in circles Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #60
Yes we are loyalsister Dec 2016 #63
How many threads have you spammed that post into today, Walter? Ken Burch Dec 2016 #6
You're talking about tailoring a message Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #8
Trump owns everyone on the right, most of whom are far scarier than one harmless faculty advisor. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #12
You're right, we can't gain votes doing that. We have no control of the narrative. Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #20
What were we suppose to do, have Hillary vilify the woman? Ken Burch Dec 2016 #21
I'm not suggesting we do that at all, don't even acknowledge them Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2016 #23
Surely it's possible loyalsister Dec 2016 #4
Thanks, loyalsister. elleng Dec 2016 #10
Some of us can. ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #35
Yep. And I never expected that to be advocated by a group numbering more than 1 or 2 here. nt stevenleser Dec 2016 #41
Absolutely kcr Dec 2016 #43
We've got to throw the "haves" under the bus. ileus Dec 2016 #58
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