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eniwetok

(1,629 posts)

62. Getting rid of the Articles Of Confederation was also seen as impossible...

Mon Dec 19, 2016, 02:49 PM

Dec 2016

The Articles of Confederation was to be a permanent union and all states had to be unanimous in making any changes. It turned out to be a straight jacket locking in a dysfunctional and failing system. In similar fashion the current system is both dysfunctional and a straight jacket.

We can't expect any democratic reforms to ever come from the right... but when liberal Dems throw up their hands in despair... despite the fact that the system is incapable of insuring morally legitimate government, then the nation is really in deep shit. The Trump Junta may be the last nail in any number of coffins from global warming, to the war on labor, to setting in cement radical new ideas on corporate personhood and dismantling much of the New Deal and Great Society.

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Should California Threaten Secession To Abolish Electoral College? [View all] eniwetok Dec 2016 OP

I totally agree with you rusty fender Dec 2016 #1

Yes Calculating Dec 2016 #2

The EC was created to benefit whites in slave states. eniwetok Dec 2016 #4

You're correct. MovingForward2020 Dec 2016 #225

What happens to Camp Pendleton? Vandenberg? Yosemite? Redwoods? malchickiwick Dec 2016 #3

Please Note... I said THREATEN Secession... n/a eniwetok Dec 2016 #6

Wouldn't you have to answer those Qs to have said threat taken seriously?? malchickiwick Dec 2016 #7

This message was self-deleted by its author WillowTree Dec 2016 #11

So.......what? You're suggesting an empty threat that you don't intend to follow through on? WillowTree Dec 2016 #14

why would it be empty... eniwetok Dec 2016 #29

My Dear Old Dad taught me never to threaten. WillowTree Dec 2016 #36

What is really dangerously silly is this guy.. pbmus Dec 2016 #82

I didn't think Texas or the current OP is "silly". Missn-Hitch Dec 2016 #84

You cannot be serious Hekate Dec 2016 #115

I am. Missn-Hitch Dec 2016 #132

it is silly x 10 sweetapogee Dec 2016 #240

Why just California? There can be further negotiations. A divorce, not war. Missn-Hitch Dec 2016 #244

i didn't say anything sweetapogee Dec 2016 #246

My apologies. I didn't mean you were implying war. Missn-Hitch Dec 2016 #249

CA LOSES money to the federal government eniwetok Dec 2016 #315

Not entirely silly. Think about it. brush Dec 2016 #332

Military installations are federal property, Washington isn't going to just let them go... Marengo Dec 2016 #39

Nitpicking... eniwetok Dec 2016 #49

Pure fantasy, and see post 39 for most likely outcome. After defeat, CA won't have any power... Marengo Dec 2016 #61

the pure fantasy is all yours eniwetok Dec 2016 #81

LOL! Let us know when you will be speaking with Gov Brown, and what his response to your idea Marengo Dec 2016 #87

Really? MFM008 Dec 2016 #101

Are you predicting Jay Inslee will threaten secession, and if it comes to that, secession will... Marengo Dec 2016 #106

No MFM008 Dec 2016 #158

The topic of the exchange was secession if you didn't notice. Marengo Dec 2016 #239

I don't think you know the meaning of the word credible. onenote Dec 2016 #191

45.8% of California is federally owned sl8 Dec 2016 #142

Lawsuits MFM008 Dec 2016 #159

In what court? onenote Dec 2016 #193

Very important rule pipi_k Dec 2016 #22

Sure... and I never intended the word "threaten" to be an empty threat. eniwetok Dec 2016 #32

Then, back to the questions in post #3 dumbcat Dec 2016 #35

and your suggestion to abolish the EC is? eniwetok Dec 2016 #50

Nice deflect, but dumbcat Dec 2016 #57

and part of my OP was... eniwetok Dec 2016 #64

Not a bad idea LeftInTX Dec 2016 #51

You can't effectively threaten something fescuerescue Dec 2016 #65

even more importantly. You can't effectively threaten something you can't achieve. onenote Dec 2016 #192

All those things will be privatized under Trump/Republicans/Koch KittyWampus Dec 2016 #63

Vandenberg alone would be worth Uncle Sam fighting to keep Hekate Dec 2016 #114

they would be nationalized; happens all the time. nt TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #131

Yeah, like that time the Confederacy "nationalized" Fort Sumter. n/t malchickiwick Dec 2016 #133

things do change after 150 years. nt TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #148

Camp Pendleton pays rent to the Republic of California Merlot Dec 2016 #201

Wow. You figured it out! We sure could have used you back in 1861... malchickiwick Dec 2016 #321

Things were different then, and slavery isn't on the table. Merlot Dec 2016 #373

We take them. What are they going to do? The_Casual_Observer Dec 2016 #301

Try googling "U.S. Civil War" and you'll see what they're going to do. malchickiwick Dec 2016 #322

If you bother to read up on history.... eniwetok Apr 2017 #381

For the record: I am a professor of U.S. History malchickiwick Apr 2017 #382

I wasn't the one who resurrected this thread... eniwetok Apr 2017 #383

California and New York are probably the two states, maybe a couple of others, that ... brush Dec 2016 #331

The problem with that idea is that a lot of people in this nation... spin Dec 2016 #5

Not at first moda253 Dec 2016 #8

They would damn sure miss our tax dollars. I don't give two shits if they care. onecaliberal Dec 2016 #13

We on the west coast MFM008 Dec 2016 #104

Please be sure to acknowledge Hawaii, New Mexico, Nevada and Colorado.... Tikki Dec 2016 #167

Of course MFM008 Dec 2016 #252

I suspect you're wrong. eniwetok Dec 2016 #19

While it might work out well for some states like California to secede from the union... spin Dec 2016 #30

and this is the crux of the problem eniwetok Dec 2016 #43

I understand your point. The problem is that you have to convince those people ... spin Dec 2016 #54

Getting rid of the Articles Of Confederation was also seen as impossible... eniwetok Dec 2016 #62

You and I may agree that the Eloctoral College is dysfunctional... spin Dec 2016 #76

I suspect it's the GOPers in those states... eniwetok Dec 2016 #140

All good points. ... spin Dec 2016 #197

I worry more about the Dems! eniwetok Dec 2016 #285

They would damn sure miss our ports, food, entertainment, and high tech. DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2016 #23

Are you even sure that if California decided to leave the union ... spin Dec 2016 #40

Even the GOPers in CA would benefit... eniwetok Dec 2016 #45

Which would never happen MFM008 Dec 2016 #105

I don't have any "beef" with California. ... spin Dec 2016 #120

Almost every state is like that first map--blue in urban areas, red in the rural. yurbud Dec 2016 #328

a better way to go would be to figure out what those red district people want that fits our values yurbud Dec 2016 #329

If Texas were not in the union, Hillary would have won by 2 votes in the Electoral College. pnwmom Dec 2016 #357

I suspect many Democrats would love to see Texas secede and many ... spin Dec 2016 #366

Would they become part of Mexico? HoneyBadger Dec 2016 #9

Please stay and be a beacon of liberty and freedom for the rest of us. roamer65 Dec 2016 #10

The Catch 22 eniwetok Dec 2016 #17

Fuck yeah. The entire west coast ghostsinthemachine Dec 2016 #12

Right there with you MFM008 Dec 2016 #162

YES!!!!!!!!! ailsagirl Dec 2016 #257

Isn't some guy in Russia behind this idea? Madam45for2923 Dec 2016 #15

Well, he's living in Russia, anyway. KamaAina Dec 2016 #38

Yep! Conservative activist living in Russia and opened a CA "embassy" in Russia Madam45for2923 Dec 2016 #41

No. secessionist movements are no less stupid onenote Dec 2016 #16

Fine... and your suggestion to abolish the EC is....? n/a eniwetok Dec 2016 #18

My suggestion is that we redouble our efforts to win onenote Dec 2016 #24

So your idea is to game, not ever reform, the EC eniwetok Dec 2016 #73

And what is your realistic strategy for achieving EC reform onenote Dec 2016 #107

So you have NO suggestions for abolishing the EC. eniwetok Dec 2016 #184

You suggested nonsense. onenote Dec 2016 #189

all your red herrings have been addressed... eniwetok Dec 2016 #202

If as you admit secession isn't the point, how does threatening secession accomplish anything onenote Dec 2016 #216

The goalposts seem to be pipi_k Dec 2016 #217

Just wondering... pipi_k Dec 2016 #223

and give repubs a head start on every singe presidential election? no thanks. nt TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #154

So how do you achieve electoral college reform u onenote Dec 2016 #177

EC reform is the unobtainable goal; red states will NEVER go for it, because it benefits them, TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #274

Every single presidential election. Except four of the preceding six. onenote Dec 2016 #294

reading comprehension; didn't say we can't ever win or haven't ever won; what i said TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #299

And we get a "head start" in places like New York and California onenote Dec 2016 #309

um, yes, because we have more HUMAN democratic voters there; small states get more EC votes per HUMA TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #338

We could have won by 5 million votes and still lost the electoral college. pnwmom Dec 2016 #359

In case you don't remember the courts dismantled the voting rights act in 2013. pnwmom Dec 2016 #358

gerrymandering wasn't a factor in Trump vote, voter suppression certainly was. eniwetok Dec 2016 #369

The US pays social security to American citizens living abroad Merlot Dec 2016 #206

I think replacing Social Security and Medicare would be more easily accomplished if CA left nbsmom Dec 2016 #296

Yes, particularly if they can take Oregon and Washington with them. avebury Dec 2016 #20

How will those states pay for things like social security. onenote Dec 2016 #26

If Trump wants the use of the west coast ports avebury Dec 2016 #60

Where would your power come from? oneshooter Dec 2016 #121

possession is 9/10 of the law, and what "grid" are you talking about? sure, there would need TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #160

California gets a LOT of it's power from other states. oneshooter Dec 2016 #170

ok, well, they better start building some power plants. it's not impossible. nt TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #275

And will take between five and ten years to bring on line. n/t oneshooter Dec 2016 #287

i fully understand that; it's not going to happen tomorrow, but it is possible. nt TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #300

And as as a newly minted country your credit to fund such projects is extreamly limited. oneshooter Dec 2016 #318

CA loses money to federal government eniwetok Dec 2016 #323

Post removed Post removed Dec 2016 #339

The Western power Grid oneshooter Dec 2016 #172

where did you go to law school? onenote Dec 2016 #190

you seriously think the law matters in this country? it's might makes right, unfortunately. in any c TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #277

Naive. onenote Dec 2016 #293

whatever; gee how do small countries ever survive? nt TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #302

Gee. Small countries wouldn't survive if they were subject to trade embargoes. onenote Dec 2016 #308

maybe YOU need to get out more eniwetok Dec 2016 #324

well, that's a big "if." i suppose we could just nuke small countries tomorrow... maybe trump will.. TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #340

and your plan for abolish the EC is what? eniwetok Dec 2016 #83

Maggot MFM008 Dec 2016 #165

California gives more to the Federal government than it gets back NobodyHere Dec 2016 #266

You've got to be kidding. onenote Dec 2016 #268

you're the one who's got to be kiiding; you think CA is a free-loader on this country? nt TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #279

I think you have no idea what would be involved in creating onenote Dec 2016 #292

Ummm, no. California wouldn't have to come up with any funds. nbsmom Dec 2016 #297

Even more so with the east coast states like NY. duffyduff Dec 2016 #276

So California sarisataka Dec 2016 #21

I hope so pintobean Dec 2016 #205

No Proud Liberal Dem Dec 2016 #25

Glad you raised the point about the Democrats NobodyHere Dec 2016 #97

Nobody should *want* any state to secede Proud Liberal Dem Dec 2016 #98

And your ideas for abolishing the EC are? eniwetok Dec 2016 #100

Republicans would happily let CA go. former9thward Dec 2016 #27

What if it encourages the the rest of the West Coast and blue East Coast to secede? DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2016 #28

No most industry is in the middle, not the coasts. former9thward Dec 2016 #31

If you remove the GDP DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2016 #34

We could debate this all day but it doesn't work that way. former9thward Dec 2016 #48

i think it would be great; are you seriously worried that we wouldn't be "the greatest" anymore? TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #280

I've been fantasizing about "Cascadia" MrModerate Dec 2016 #33

I agree, too lake loon Dec 2016 #37

If you recall sarisataka Dec 2016 #42

It's a different scenario now lake loon Dec 2016 #47

I bet that is what sarisataka Dec 2016 #52

Don't fall for this ruse! Right wing activist living in Russia started this Madam45for2923 Dec 2016 #44

NONSENSE! eniwetok Dec 2016 #55

LOL! Again: From His Home in Russia, #Calexit Leader Plots California Secession Madam45for2923 Dec 2016 #70

This message was self-deleted by its author Madam45for2923 Dec 2016 #71

Yep, that's the ticket. billh58 Dec 2016 #46

How would citizenship work? HeartachesNhangovers Dec 2016 #53

No. It should culturally annex Arizona, however. Hortensis Dec 2016 #56

Hell no ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #58

Don't they teach about the "Civil War" in schools anymore? n/t PoliticAverse Dec 2016 #59

And your ideas are? eniwetok Dec 2016 #67

Never knew John Calhoun was held in such high regard on DU hardluck Dec 2016 #90

RED HERRING ALERT!! eniwetok Dec 2016 #99

If the shoe fits... hardluck Dec 2016 #110

so we can't walk and chew gum at the same time? eniwetok Dec 2016 #116

Yes hardluck Dec 2016 #117

Gee... why do you think I called for desperate measures??? eniwetok Dec 2016 #141

Nope sarisataka Dec 2016 #69

yeah! and the Soviet Union will never break up either!! nt TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #149

I guess now that the Electoral College is voting, some people will need a new fantasy idea... brooklynite Dec 2016 #66

with that kind of small thinking, we would still be a part of great britain. nt TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #147

Call me what you like. Oakenshield Dec 2016 #283

Infrastructure is too inter-connected for there to be a split. Calista241 Dec 2016 #68

and your idea for abolishing the EC is? eniwetok Dec 2016 #75

How about we run a campaign that takes there electoral college Calista241 Dec 2016 #78

Of COURSE the EC is at fault eniwetok Dec 2016 #93

"....protect itself from Mexico who would probably sacrifice a LOT to annex California." EX500rider Dec 2016 #80

All of which is owned and run by the Federal Government. oneshooter Dec 2016 #122

I bet a lot of National Guard units would defect, equipment and all. EX500rider Dec 2016 #124

I would doubt it. oneshooter Dec 2016 #135

Not necessarily true....when the Soviet Union broke up everyone kept what was on their soil.. EX500rider Dec 2016 #134

i think that's exactly what would/should happen. nt TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #163

The premise isn't about a break up of the US. Calista241 Dec 2016 #209

Cal exit opens "embassy" in Russia Madam45for2923 Dec 2016 #72

Wow... you LOVE red baiting, don't you! eniwetok Dec 2016 #77

I don't see it the same way you do! This is a good to know fact! Madam45for2923 Dec 2016 #86

That's now SIX red baiting posts. eniwetok Dec 2016 #88

You are talking about California Secession also! Am mentioning facts about the leader of Cal-exit Madam45for2923 Dec 2016 #89

That's now SEVEN red baiting posts eniwetok Dec 2016 #92

WITH TWELVE, DO YOU GET EGGROLLS? N/T oneshooter Dec 2016 #123

Not egg rolls.... opiate69 Dec 2016 #214

Sure -- Oregon and Washington too. KPN Dec 2016 #74

Hear, hear! I like the way you think. Missn-Hitch Dec 2016 #79

Yahoo! Lets do it! eom KPN Dec 2016 #198

Perfectly happy to have CA join the Cascadia movement Kilgore Dec 2016 #128

You are very rare up here indeed. KPN Dec 2016 #199

The electoral college is not the problem in this election trc Dec 2016 #85

sure voter suppression played a factor.... BUT eniwetok Dec 2016 #91

The game is rigged though Calculating Dec 2016 #95

the entire system is unfixable eniwetok Dec 2016 #288

agreed, especially since the system benefits repugs and they know it. nt TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #341

the EC *is* the problem; it gives repubs a built in advantage, and that is not going to change. TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #281

The ec victory is the result of republican voter suppression trc Dec 2016 #286

you are totally missing my (and others') point; yes, voter suppression, russian interference TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #298

We agree then: apportionment favors small states, trc Dec 2016 #304

i'm not willing to just accept a permanent disadvantage; repubs will NEVER accept any modification o TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #306

You wrote... eniwetok Dec 2016 #310

I agree, it is reasonable trc Dec 2016 #319

of course it's reasonable, but have you met republicans lately? this country will go down in flames TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #342

Pffft, I would rather see my fine state host the capital.... Brother Buzz Dec 2016 #94

Didn't we make fun of the lunatics in Texas, Georgia and other states Calista241 Dec 2016 #96

How Is This Different? eniwetok Dec 2016 #103

speak for yourself. i have never opposed secession for any state that chooses it. nt TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #151

the OBVIOUS difference is eniwetok Dec 2016 #316

A civil war was fought to hold our union together Motley13 Dec 2016 #102

Sorry, we're not going to get through this eniwetok Dec 2016 #109

And? Will any of that change if CA tries or threatens to leave the Union? Glassunion Dec 2016 #118

leaving aside your civil war fairy tale... eniwetok Dec 2016 #146

The EC isn't going away Ronald G. Phillips Dec 2016 #207

Who was "laughing at coal miners"? DesertRat Dec 2016 #213

Was wondering the same thing. fleabiscuit Dec 2016 #229

the best fix? eniwetok Dec 2016 #254

and the US is 3 times the size it was then; it NEEDS to break up at this point. nt TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #152

Last time anybody tried that it did not end well. davsand Dec 2016 #108

And your ideas for abolishing the EC are???? eniwetok Dec 2016 #111

Why don't you try Article 5 first hardluck Dec 2016 #219

The remedy for the EC is a Constitutional Amendment. Period. davsand Dec 2016 #265

No, Putin and the like want the USA to be weaker flamingdem Dec 2016 #112

must be since I've seen this very discussion here 10-12 years ago. eniwetok Dec 2016 #145

No. But the Central Coast thanks you for asking. Hekate Dec 2016 #113

No, secession is a horrible idea. Glassunion Dec 2016 #119

red herring alert!! eniwetok Dec 2016 #144

False dilemma alert! Glassunion Dec 2016 #221

Please take NM with you. Alice11111 Dec 2016 #125

Well, there is a Russian who would like to help you WhiteTara Dec 2016 #126

The point is not to secede... it's to DEMAND REFORMS n/a eniwetok Dec 2016 #136

No. The Union. WheelWalker Dec 2016 #127

Nice sentiment... but... eniwetok Dec 2016 #137

YES!! Come join us in Cascadia!! Kilgore Dec 2016 #129

absolutely, or simply refuse to comply with fed dictates that go against the will of the people. nt TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #130

you're speaking about nullification eniwetok Dec 2016 #138

i support secession, not just the threat of it, but it seems like nullification might be more possib TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #157

What would be nullified? eniwetok Dec 2016 #173

well, that's up to the citizens of Calitopia, going forward. yes i'm sure it's unconstitutional, but TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #282

There's a bunch of folks who should take up writing sci-fi novels. There's more people in Calif.... Hekate Dec 2016 #139

never suggested that eniwetok Dec 2016 #143

Secession is always a fun academic exercise until ManiacJoe Dec 2016 #150

It's not in the Constitution... eniwetok Dec 2016 #168

I would prefer you remain a beacon of hope for the rest of us Generic Brad Dec 2016 #153

We have a better chance of being hit by lightning than this being an option.. Uggwearingdad Dec 2016 #155

and your ideas for abolishing the EC are???? eniwetok Dec 2016 #164

I don't want to abolish the EC..not sure where you got the idea I did. Uggwearingdad Dec 2016 #169

my god you certainly can miss the point. eniwetok Dec 2016 #176

I replied to the OP...and to your question Uggwearingdad Dec 2016 #178

with that kind of small thinking, we would still be a part of great britain. nt TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #166

Seriously(?)....California citizens are going to take up arms Uggwearingdad Dec 2016 #175

RED HERRING ALERT!!! eniwetok Dec 2016 #179

I not only read it....I addressed it....see my post #155... Uggwearingdad Dec 2016 #183

Sorry... eniwetok Dec 2016 #188

It's been read thourghly...it's a not well thought out idea...even a threat of leaving... Uggwearingdad Dec 2016 #196

This red-blue state dichotomy is nonsense. eniwetok Dec 2016 #289

I never once claimed it would start a Civil War...you seem to be the 1 not reading Uggwearingdad Dec 2016 #186

Yup NOTHING in your post suggested CA secession would cause a civil war eniwetok Dec 2016 #290

I'm sorry..did you miss the fact that the post you C&P'd was a QUESTION to your.. Uggwearingdad Dec 2016 #314

so... eniwetok Dec 2016 #317

No..I never did......I asked a question....based on a reference to the Revolution... Uggwearingdad Dec 2016 #335

"I completely disagree that this would start a civil war" - of course not, because like Texas... PoliticAverse Dec 2016 #211

1. other states could go with them. 2. seriously doubt red staters would risk their own lives to sto TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #273

Secession would require either a Constintutional ammendment, or a civil war. still_one Dec 2016 #156

Where is it prohibited in the Constitution? eniwetok Dec 2016 #161

It would be argued that after the Civil War the states entered into an indissoluble still_one Dec 2016 #171

One might think.... and yet... eniwetok Dec 2016 #174

Good point, but if we do it, we might want to do it while the SC is still 4 + 4 still_one Dec 2016 #180

That decision will be 8-0 against the idea... Uggwearingdad Dec 2016 #345

correct; it is not prohibited; the founding documents of this country specifically provide for the p TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #284

If they want to be selfish ass holes, sure. MadBadger Dec 2016 #181

another person who didn't bother to read the OP n/t eniwetok Dec 2016 #185

Calexit sounds just as stupid as Texit. js romanic Dec 2016 #182

I Changed The Title Of The OP Because... eniwetok Dec 2016 #187

The title and OP was read thoroughly sarisataka Dec 2016 #218

Also... pipi_k Dec 2016 #224

if you want to play number games... eniwetok Dec 2016 #234

Yeah, we get it pipi_k Dec 2016 #237

at some point PRINCIPLE matters. eniwetok Dec 2016 #245

Um...really? pipi_k Dec 2016 #263

Translation: you intend to live with more Bush and Trump Juntas... eniwetok Dec 2016 #232

I live in the real world sarisataka Dec 2016 #236

Last I heard it's not 1787... so who cares? eniwetok Dec 2016 #247

I told you how to change sarisataka Dec 2016 #258

Wou really think I haven't looked at your "approach"? eniwetok Dec 2016 #278

Your mask is slipping... sarisataka Dec 2016 #291

No... that's YOUR take... not mine. eniwetok Dec 2016 #311

Also... pipi_k Dec 2016 #264

living in it and changing it are not mutually exclusive, but thanks for the negativity. nt TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #307

Financially NobodyHere Dec 2016 #267

hey, if making threats without any intention of following through can be effective onenote Dec 2016 #194

try reading the thread... eniwetok Dec 2016 #200

I"ve read it. And I've yet to see you explain how your idea onenote Dec 2016 #215

Hey, I've got an even better one. onenote Dec 2016 #195

Are you scared? Lanius Dec 2016 #204

one person one vote is a joke.... eniwetok Dec 2016 #210

What if the Electoral College is updated? Lanius Dec 2016 #203

if we're going to change the EC formula... eniwetok Dec 2016 #208

If, IF, we ever get rid of the electoral college Calista241 Dec 2016 #212

The people, not the states or the cities, will matter if the election is by popular vote. MovingForward2020 Dec 2016 #227

Please Stop Thinking In Terms of "States" eniwetok Dec 2016 #235

Does that require a Constitutional Convention? Adsos Letter Dec 2016 #220

there's middle ground eniwetok Dec 2016 #230

Absolutely!! InAbLuEsTaTe Dec 2016 #222

Sure, Russia would love us to be the Confederate States of America tandem5 Dec 2016 #226

try reading the thread before making such statements. eniwetok Dec 2016 #231

I'm sorry... tandem5 Dec 2016 #259

Highly unlikey to happen.. AllenJordan Dec 2016 #228

If you bothered to read the Constitution... eniwetok Dec 2016 #233

Would be interesting to see it. AllenJordan Dec 2016 #270

So, having read through pipi_k Dec 2016 #238

translation... eniwetok Dec 2016 #251

You just don't get it. pipi_k Dec 2016 #260

and your ideas are? eniwetok Dec 2016 #330

I've already told you pipi_k Dec 2016 #363

Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. deaniac21 Dec 2016 #241

BE QUIET! sarisataka Dec 2016 #242

Well, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power deaniac21 Dec 2016 #255

If California left the US, there would never be another Dem president. Not without frankieallen Dec 2016 #243

RED HERRING ALERT!! eniwetok Dec 2016 #248

reform? the basic structure of our government? We are not a democracy, we are a representative frankieallen Dec 2016 #262

when someone objects regardless of the choices eniwetok Dec 2016 #271

I'm not going to waste my time, there is so many twisted and false points in your post, I would not frankieallen Dec 2016 #368

Fine... start some new threads and deal with one point at a time. Deal? eniwetok Dec 2016 #375

ah yes... 2004 eniwetok Dec 2016 #272

well, if ALL the blue states left, they wouldn't have much of a country to be president of. nt TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #343

Meaningless threats are useless. nt hack89 Dec 2016 #250

Absolutely not. Richard D Dec 2016 #253

Only if we get to keep Jerry Brown... forever ailsagirl Dec 2016 #256

Jerry Brown is 78 years old... yuiyoshida Dec 2016 #261

I know, I know ailsagirl Dec 2016 #269

This has to be some kind of performance piece. X_Digger Dec 2016 #295

I take the matter of morally legitimate government seriously. eniwetok Dec 2016 #312

Not so seriously pipi_k Dec 2016 #320

Gee... can it be... eniwetok Dec 2016 #325

A spark to ignite it? pipi_k Dec 2016 #364

Since you're so serious, have you contacted Gov. Brown yet? Marengo Dec 2016 #336

CONFLATION ALERT!! eniwetok Dec 2016 #346

No...not even close pipi_k Dec 2016 #361

so your bottom line is... eniwetok Dec 2016 #370

Oh, so ironic... pipi_k Dec 2016 #371

so you think you can discredit an idea by attacking the person who suggests it... eniwetok Dec 2016 #374

Has Gov. Brown responded to your secession proposal yet? Marengo Dec 2016 #372

Oh look, a logical fallacy. X_Digger Dec 2016 #349

You had a chance to enter into a substantive discussion eniwetok Dec 2016 #355

Dear, you haven't seem me pick a fight. I went easy on you, because it seemed to be unfair not to. X_Digger Dec 2016 #360

no DonCoquixote Dec 2016 #303

Red Herring Alert! eniwetok Dec 2016 #313

You keep saying that.."Red Herring Alert!"....it's you doing red herrings Uggwearingdad Dec 2016 #344

try reading for comprehension eniwetok Dec 2016 #347

Doing it again...I never compared it to the Civil war... Uggwearingdad Dec 2016 #350

Not recommended Truth321 Dec 2016 #305

leaving aside your civil war red herring... eniwetok Dec 2016 #326

Crisis? Wabbajack_ Dec 2016 #327

There is a solution. -- From the states. immoderate Dec 2016 #333

I addressed that in my OP eniwetok Dec 2016 #348

Since it works without congress, I don't think you addressed it. immoderate Dec 2016 #352

Art 1, Sec 10 eniwetok Dec 2016 #354

It's not going to happen, so why do you keep this subject going? Calista241 Dec 2016 #334

if your read my OP... eniwetok Dec 2016 #351

Have you presented this idea to Gov. Brown yet? If so, what was his response. If not, why not? Marengo Dec 2016 #365

California is pretty divided as well. Throd 2.0 Dec 2016 #337

No blue cat Dec 2016 #353

how much does your vote count for in TX eniwetok Dec 2016 #356

Why not? Astraea Dec 2016 #362

California has one of the world's largest economies. McCamy Taylor Dec 2016 #367

Should the United States yield to such a threat, sl8 Dec 2016 #376

Red states would let CA secede in order to solidify power over the remaining states. LonePirate Dec 2016 #377

The ruse is up! Madam45for2923 Apr 2017 #378

Fearless leader of Calexit absconded to Russia. Any comments? Hekate Apr 2017 #379

Sure... I proposed this idea here 13 years ago.... eniwetok Apr 2017 #380