General Discussion

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)

146. Don't write those folks off. Remember 2000.

Thu Dec 22, 2016, 02:31 AM

Dec 2016

I do NOT want to rehash the old debate about whether to blame Nader for the Bush administration. I'll simply point to the undeniable numbers. Nader got 2.9 million votes in 2000 -- but in 2004, after four years of Bush, Nader got fewer than half a million.

Here's my interpretation of that stunning falloff: A lot of progressives bought Nader's argument that there wasn't much difference between Bush and Gore, so they thought they had no particular reason to vote for Gore if they didn't strongly support him. Bush showed them the error of their ways.

The people you're talking about this time didn't strongly support Clinton (I didn't either) and felt they had no particular reason to vote for her (which is where they went wrong). My guess is that Trump will be even more effective than Bush the Lesser was at bringing people back into the Democratic tent. I'm more ready to forgive them and welcome them back than you seem to be.

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A note to some people who are finally calling for everyone to join together [View all] MineralMan Dec 2016 OP

Amen. People who until yesterday were loudly La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2016 #1

Yep, I think that actually being a Democrat is a requirement for even being in the discussion ehrnst Dec 2016 #125

We need closed primaries and we need to get rid of causes Gothmog Dec 2016 #134

Caucuses, yes. Closed primaries serve an important purpose. ehrnst Dec 2016 #155

Post removed Post removed Dec 2016 #2

And yet, we had a choice between two candidates MineralMan Dec 2016 #4

I don't entirely disagree, but... Whiskeytide Dec 2016 #84

We offered a lot to mainstream America radical noodle Dec 2016 #121

We offer a lot to mainstream Americans mountain grammy Dec 2016 #129

Hillary Clinton hotrod0808 Dec 2016 #138

We failed to show up Ghost OF Trotsky Dec 2016 #154

So just give up then? LiberalLovinLug Dec 2016 #131

Yeah, OMalley was really screwed from the beginning :rolleyes: uponit7771 Dec 2016 #5

oh that is not how to make friends dembotoz Dec 2016 #63

Don't know what you responded to... but I was an O'Malley supporters who watched as nary a Sanders KittyWampus Dec 2016 #91

+1, right now its a trust issue... this election was way important for the pettiness that was shown uponit7771 Dec 2016 #3

The DNC flagrantly violated it's own rules to favor one candidate. Was that pettiness or just WRONG? think Dec 2016 #6

The DNC didn't keep any of the candidates from putting resources into the "southern states" so uponit7771 Dec 2016 #10

Really? Plucketeer Dec 2016 #34

Red herring, it also had nothing to do with primary candidates purposefully skipping "southern uponit7771 Dec 2016 #62

Please point to where Plucketeer Dec 2016 #71

Strawman, I'm responding to your intimation in your response in this child thread that DWS had uponit7771 Dec 2016 #74

Not to butt in, but I believe that person was responding directly to your comments. George II Dec 2016 #117

Right.... Plucketeer Dec 2016 #137

That 3 million number is so misleading. Lucky Luciano Dec 2016 #40

OK ... she won by 1 million and that's still a mile... I don't see how that helps the JPR type ... uponit7771 Dec 2016 #64

any objective person hfojvt Dec 2016 #87

I didn't say to use the caucus percentages. Lucky Luciano Dec 2016 #110

I've seen estimates of the caucus states votes, and they were just a fraction of the turnout... George II Dec 2016 #116

I agree caucuses should be eliminated. Lucky Luciano Dec 2016 #119

I don't see any reason to believe he would have won caucus states hfojvt Dec 2016 #144

Non binding primaries mean nothing. Lucky Luciano Dec 2016 #153

the Democrat? DrDan Dec 2016 #24

How dare they! DawgHouse Dec 2016 #89

The DNC allowed a lifelong 'independent' to make a serious run as a "Democrat"? yallerdawg Dec 2016 #26

And the DNC didn't hack its own firewall to steal information. One campaign did though brush Dec 2016 #43

No, they did not. George II Dec 2016 #104

They sure did,& it will be a cold day in Hell before they let an Independent sucker them again.... Hekate Dec 2016 #109

That talking point is simply false Gothmog Dec 2016 #135

This needs to be an OP and it should be bookmarked by many Hekate Dec 2016 #148

It already is' and he 's been spamming with it ever since... dionysus Dec 2016 #167

Thank you. Yes. MineralMan Dec 2016 #7

The fact that every Democrat running for Senate in a swing state, lost to the still_one Dec 2016 #8

Yes. Clearly. MineralMan Dec 2016 #12

So there were no bent voting machines of any kind in Waukesha county? Ford_Prefect Dec 2016 #54

If they Wabbajack_ Dec 2016 #58

The digital fix was only built to guarantee the White House and Senate went GOP. Ford_Prefect Dec 2016 #75

Everything plays a role in every election. MineralMan Dec 2016 #77

well he has lost twice now hfojvt Dec 2016 #94

Yes, he has. Unfortunately, I must say. MineralMan Dec 2016 #95

I don't believe WE should have a "canidate selection process" hfojvt Dec 2016 #98

By WE, I meant the voters. MineralMan Dec 2016 #101

I'm with you, BlueMTexpat Dec 2016 #102

Absolutely Nothing will make Trump legitimate let alone qualified. randr Dec 2016 #9

Thank you MineralMan, for saying what needs to be said. (nt) Paladin Dec 2016 #11

My pleasure. Truly. MineralMan Dec 2016 #13

It will be interesting to see how you keep your bitterness fresh. Baitball Blogger Dec 2016 #14

Not bitterness, but a lesson bitterly learned. We learn from our mistakes. Nitram Dec 2016 #17

Oh, I'm sure some will give me fresh reasons for bitterness MineralMan Dec 2016 #18

Can you point to it? zipplewrath Dec 2016 #29

Sure: MineralMan Dec 2016 #30

I unsubscribed from this *because* of the lack of unity. The OP is spot on. nt LaydeeBug Dec 2016 #47

Yes. Thank you. MineralMan Dec 2016 #49

Wasn't WP the guy who refered to Obama as a used car salesman? Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Dec 2016 #78

The very same Hekate Dec 2016 #149

Yes. tecelote Dec 2016 #56

When progressives yelled about those faulty machines in 2000 and 2004, the corporate Dems yurbud Dec 2016 #65

Agreed. This is something where we can make a difference. Baitball Blogger Dec 2016 #107

If it doesn't have a way to do a manual recount, it shouldn't be used. yurbud Dec 2016 #168

Agree on all points. Baitball Blogger Dec 2016 #169

Oh bull. Blame it on faulty machines and Comey's interference. hunter Dec 2016 #81

You don't find many greens and independents in red precincts. Baitball Blogger Dec 2016 #108

What sort of "efficiency?" hunter Dec 2016 #114

Let's run elections like every vote matters. Baitball Blogger Dec 2016 #115

If every vote mattered, Clinton would be President. hunter Dec 2016 #127

That's my point. Baitball Blogger Dec 2016 #128

Amen, Brother. Nitram Dec 2016 #15

Well honestly I disagree jimlup Dec 2016 #16

I'm not angry about any primaries. We had them, and had a nominee. MineralMan Dec 2016 #19

Then I honestly don't know who you mean jimlup Dec 2016 #23

Sounds like your wife is exactly the kind of person MM is talking about. stopbush Dec 2016 #31

Because she is my wife I'm not really into talking about it here jimlup Dec 2016 #139

Every voter has a right to vote as he or she sees fit. MineralMan Dec 2016 #48

So I guess I really don't know who you mean jimlup Dec 2016 #140

The point of this thread melman Dec 2016 #160

Then you missed the point by a mile. Too bad. Hekate Dec 2016 #163

But there were many times that number blocked from voting by Bettie Dec 2016 #72

As far as unitfying against trump, I agree. However, anyone who willfully refused to still_one Dec 2016 #22

I think the current strength of the GOP is an illusion that may well fall apart quickly Fast Walker 52 Dec 2016 #70

I agree but I don't think it will end well jimlup Dec 2016 #141

k&r Liberal_in_LA Dec 2016 #20

I'm hearing you... Wounded Bear Dec 2016 #21

"Stupid" should be the word of the year. "Stupid has conquered all and made our country "stupid" world wide wally Dec 2016 #25

Well said! SnowCritter Dec 2016 #67

Without unity we will have eight years of the orange man, with unity we can limit him to four years Thinkingabout Dec 2016 #27

Thanks MineralMan. JHan Dec 2016 #28

I'm thinking that some should really be focused MineralMan Dec 2016 #32

I'm thinking they're trying a "tea party" zipplewrath Dec 2016 #41

The biggest mistake of the democrat party was to nominate Clinton zippythepinhead Dec 2016 #42

Democrat party? Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Dec 2016 #82

Republic party is controlling the language better HopeAgain Dec 2016 #106

I did not know that. zippythepinhead Dec 2016 #156

K&R mcar Dec 2016 #33

Difficult to count on people who run in the other direction when things don't go exactly their way. seaglass Dec 2016 #35

I really, really like Keith Ellison. MineralMan Dec 2016 #37

great post +10000000.. JHan Dec 2016 #38

I like Keith Ellison a lot as well NewJeffCT Dec 2016 #55

Keith Ellison is terrific. I am also willing to bet he will fail some 'purity test' once he's head emulatorloo Dec 2016 #59

"people who constantly railed against the Democratic Party" jack_krass Dec 2016 #85

Hear Here! druidity33 Dec 2016 #112

Ive been here since 2002. I know exactly what that means. There are people who wear their.... Hekate Dec 2016 #158

I still see posted here that "Clinton just wasn't *exciting*" or she was "the lesser of two evils". baldguy Dec 2016 #36

Focusing our attention on... LanternWaste Dec 2016 #39

What did Will Rogers say? SHRED Dec 2016 #44

Obama's elections should have been a clue... SHRED Dec 2016 #45

Yawn elmac Dec 2016 #46

Thanks for taking the time to read it, anyway. MineralMan Dec 2016 #50

I read your posts because I think you are a good writer and generally well informed... Javaman Dec 2016 #57

I, too, am a man of patience. Out of necessity. MineralMan Dec 2016 #79

zzzzzzzzzzz.... LovingA2andMI Dec 2016 #142

And the circular firing squad continues elmac Dec 2016 #51

Small correction. HassleCat Dec 2016 #130

Great post Gothmog Dec 2016 #52

Exactly. "Unity" is not the optimal choice right now. TygrBright Dec 2016 #53

He wants a wall. madamesilverspurs Dec 2016 #60

to the corporate wing of the Democratic Party, "unity" means leave the driving to us yurbud Dec 2016 #61

Why don't we all unify around issues instead of a person? Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2016 #66

Well said Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Dec 2016 #83

The whole "Democrats fall in love - Republicans fall in line" has got to stop.... Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2016 #99

For the simple reason that people's names are on the ballot, while the Party platform Hekate Dec 2016 #159

Nobody is on the ballot anymore. Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2016 #161

K&R ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #68

as much as I tend to agree with this, I think if Trump didn't unify liberals, I don't know what will Fast Walker 52 Dec 2016 #69

Well, he certainly should have, if only to prevent his election. MineralMan Dec 2016 #92

it was close and several factors appear to have swung it to Trump Fast Walker 52 Dec 2016 #100

I have no sympathy for those who have deliberately tried to divide us. anniebelle Dec 2016 #150

I hear you. Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Dec 2016 #73

Then there is only one path forward. HassleCat Dec 2016 #76

We had the election we had. We always do. MineralMan Dec 2016 #80

They only want unity liquid diamond Dec 2016 #86

It's a trojan horse. DawgHouse Dec 2016 #88

So this is what it looks like when our calm sage MinMan loses his temper Hekate Dec 2016 #90

Pretty scary, huh? MineralMan Dec 2016 #93

I have a great deal of anger that I am dealing with Gothmog Dec 2016 #133

K&R Jamaal510 Dec 2016 #96

Our way or the highway? HopeAgain Dec 2016 #97

+1 TonyPDX Dec 2016 #143

Excellent points, sir. Thank you. Off direction, but what we're seeing now reminds me of..... George II Dec 2016 #103

There are always atheists in fox holes, MineralMan Dec 2016 #105

LOL Gothmog Dec 2016 #132

K&R, obviously betsuni Dec 2016 #111

I agree brer cat Dec 2016 #113

A lot of the people calling for "unity" NastyRiffraff Dec 2016 #118

A time and place for everything. A time to build bridges. . . DinahMoeHum Dec 2016 #120

"Hillary is too stupid to be President." SixString Dec 2016 #122

Yes. That was over eight years ago. MineralMan Dec 2016 #123

One wrong statement doesn't make the "horse wobbly" gulliver Dec 2016 #124

My goodness, SixString, you came all the way out of retirement to dredge that up? Hekate Dec 2016 #162

This message was self-deleted by its author SixString Dec 2016 #164

Let me just memorialize your statement to me: "Geez, you're one stupid fuck." Hekate Dec 2016 #165

Adios. SixString Dec 2016 #166

Damn, that was one nasty comment to you. No wonder he/she self deleted it. George II Dec 2016 #171

What makes it truly special is that *I* got alerted on! Hekate Dec 2016 #172

True shenmue Dec 2016 #126

We don't have the option of not being unified if we are to survive this disastrous administration. Tatiana Dec 2016 #136

Catastrophes bring people together. Do we wait for one created by Trump? YOHABLO Dec 2016 #145

Don't write those folks off. Remember 2000. Jim Lane Dec 2016 #146

I hope that people can learn--and that they will learn from this. McCamy Taylor Dec 2016 #147

"calls for separation in the past" Martin Eden Dec 2016 #151

"I don't believe you" Roy Rolling Dec 2016 #152

Leopards don't change their spots Cary Dec 2016 #157

When the trumpsters start, I just answer them... Lady Freedom Returns Dec 2016 #170

I'm not sure if the OP is sincere or a comedy sketch. Exilednight Dec 2016 #173