General Discussion

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)

29. You're not going far enough. Trayvon had that right even without SYG.

Wed Dec 28, 2016, 05:56 PM

Dec 2016

The longtime law of self-defense allows a person to use deadly force against an assailant if the conditions are met -- the conditions being that the person has an actual and reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury. Two variations are:
* The "retreat rule" -- there is no privilege to use deadly force if the person could instead avoid danger by safely retreating.
* "Stand your ground" -- the person is privileged to use deadly force even if a safe retreat is available.

If the encounter had occurred in a "retreat rule" state and if Trayvon had had a gun and had used it to kill Zimmerman, then the questions for the jury would be whether Trayvon met the initial conditions and whether he could have safely retreated. With Zimmerman pointing a gun at him, yes, the conditions are met, and because they were out in the open, there was probably no safe retreat available.

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Under "Stand Your Ground" Trayvon Had The Right To Kill Zimmerman [View all] eniwetok Dec 2016 OP

I always thought that stupid law would have been on Trayvon's side if there was any justice world wide wally Dec 2016 #1

With no eye witnesses hack89 Dec 2016 #6

last man standing 'wins' spanone Dec 2016 #11

Trials are skewed towards the accused for obvious reasons hack89 Dec 2016 #13

Was it a "very weak" case or or a case of bad written law? eniwetok Dec 2016 #56

When the government witnesses undermine the government's case hack89 Dec 2016 #59

sure there was evidence... Z's OWN STATEMENTS eniwetok Dec 2016 #62

You just described a weak and poorly prosecuted case hack89 Dec 2016 #66

this is a side show.... eniwetok Dec 2016 #67

I don't believe that TlalocW Dec 2016 #23

Even if one believes Zimmerman, he still grabbed his gun, stalked and intimidated Martin, then shot Hoyt Dec 2016 #2

conversely eniwetok Dec 2016 #4

I don't think the concept of stand your ground should have applied to Zman. One shouldn't be able Hoyt Dec 2016 #7

SYG is a legal defense for gun owners... so once Z was charged... eniwetok Dec 2016 #14

SYG is too generous in a situation where a bully can grab his gun and intimidate an unarmed kid, Hoyt Dec 2016 #20

That is mercuryblues Dec 2016 #78

SYG is basically license to kill Bettie Dec 2016 #22

Z's defense didn't use SYG NobodyHere Dec 2016 #35

it didn't matter... it was still the law eniwetok Dec 2016 #48

Except he did not evoke a SYG defense hack89 Dec 2016 #43

the instructions given to the jury were consistant with SYG eniwetok Dec 2016 #49

His entire defense was that it was impossible for him to retreat hack89 Dec 2016 #51

but this becomes a catch 22 eniwetok Dec 2016 #52

Z got the benefit of the doubt because that is how justice works hack89 Dec 2016 #55

no one's ever been convicted in the death of another where there are no witnesses? eniwetok Dec 2016 #61

No. But usually the prosecutor doesn't help the accused. Nt hack89 Dec 2016 #64

you're moving the goal post... eniwetok Dec 2016 #58

There was no SYG hearing, was there? hack89 Dec 2016 #60

IT DOESN'T MATTER if SYG is part of the law... eniwetok Dec 2016 #68

So why didn't he ask for a hearing? hack89 Dec 2016 #72

ask his lawyer eniwetok Dec 2016 #76

IF Martin was on top of Zimmerman how could Zimmerman retreat? ... spin Dec 2016 #79

Who had the testosterone poisoning? eniwetok Dec 2016 #85

I think if Martin would have lived ... spin Dec 2016 #88

Zimmerman actually didn't use the SYG defense. Captain Stern Dec 2016 #54

Wrong Drumron Dec 2016 #25

You should have posted your opinion of gunners like Zman. Sorry, but the majority of gun owners, Hoyt Dec 2016 #28

Look at all those black thugs in that gun show. I can't find one. nt doc03 Dec 2016 #41

And in that last pic ... lpbk2713 Dec 2016 #42

Myself a white guy 68 years old was at a gun shop in Columbus last week. I was looking at doc03 Dec 2016 #45

You don't use apostrophes with plurals. Aristus Dec 2016 #50

Hell, if Zimmerman had stayed in his truck like the emergency operator said mythology Dec 2016 #46

I thought the evidence showed that Trayvon was not aware of the gun hack89 Dec 2016 #5

Now, how would we know that? Do you honestly think Zman -- an armed wuss -- followed Martin in dark Hoyt Dec 2016 #8

He said it was in his pocket the entire time hack89 Dec 2016 #10

I'm still trying to figure out Runningdawg Dec 2016 #26

Not sure that was what was said in court hack89 Dec 2016 #27

Z claims gun was in holster under jacket eniwetok Dec 2016 #47

He had it in a holster and he said Martin reached for his gun. Must have known, don't you think? Hoyt Dec 2016 #30

They were wrestling hack89 Dec 2016 #31

I thought he was bashing his head in at the time. Of course, he only had superficial scratches. Hoyt Dec 2016 #32

I am relying on the government eye witness hack89 Dec 2016 #33

answer the question eniwetok Dec 2016 #53

Of course he could lie hack89 Dec 2016 #57

the "witness" did not see how it started eniwetok Dec 2016 #69

It was not perverse hack89 Dec 2016 #73

but your bottom line is SYG is not to blame eniwetok Dec 2016 #77

No agenda hack89 Dec 2016 #81

and yet eniwetok Dec 2016 #86

I think you are wrong about SYG and it's role in the trial hack89 Dec 2016 #87

Trayvon WAS aware that some guy was following him csziggy Dec 2016 #15

Yet we know Trayvon lost Z hack89 Dec 2016 #17

Zimmerman told the dispatcher he had driven to the back gate csziggy Dec 2016 #19

The car was parked in the opposite direction from his house hack89 Dec 2016 #21

The transcript of Zimmerman's call says he WAS driving to the back gate csziggy Dec 2016 #36

That conversation took place at 2 on the map hack89 Dec 2016 #38

The timing does not work csziggy Dec 2016 #44

We only have Z's word eniwetok Dec 2016 #16

We have the government's witness hack89 Dec 2016 #18

Zimmerman was a typical gun nut. They dream about the day they can finally shoot someone. Oneironaut Dec 2016 #65

There are more than a few on DU who still defend the Zman as a law abiding citizen and flamin lib Dec 2016 #3

Yep. Worse, they count Zman's murdering TM as a justified use of a gun for defense. Deplorable. Hoyt Dec 2016 #9

At least "Florida Man" Michael Dunn was finally convicted (during a retrial) for murdering tblue37 Dec 2016 #12

Yes. This has always been the case, and the reason why this is usch a travesty. nt LaydeeBug Dec 2016 #24

You're not going far enough. Trayvon had that right even without SYG. Jim Lane Dec 2016 #29

pointing a gun eniwetok Dec 2016 #71

There are two separate issues here. Jim Lane Dec 2016 #74

This message was self-deleted by its author Skittles Dec 2016 #34

Zimmy was bird dogging Trayvon. lpbk2713 Dec 2016 #37

Unfortunately, only Zimmerman had murder on his mind Greybnk48 Dec 2016 #39

If Travon was white they would have burned anyone with a hispanic name or any doc03 Dec 2016 #40

Here's why SYG is a bad law - It doesn't care about what happened before the shooting. Oneironaut Dec 2016 #63

self defense.... eniwetok Dec 2016 #70

I agree and thank you. Martin responsibly feared for his life. Oneironaut Dec 2016 #75

a young black male has no ground to stand on. bullimiami Dec 2016 #80

Florida statitics disagree with you. ManiacJoe Dec 2016 #83

Silly wabbit, Stand Your Ground is for white people! backscatter712 Dec 2016 #82

+1 uponit7771 Dec 2016 #84