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eniwetok

(1,629 posts)
21. and these other forms of morally legitimate government are?
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 10:50 AM
Jan 2017

"Anyway, democracy is not the only moral basis for government, and has serious flaws of its own. This was argued out at the Constitutional Convention, and the republic we have is due to some serious disagreements among the conventioneers. Many of whom read Plato."

The US lives in a contradiction where its founding principles in 18th century republican theory are best summed up in the Declaration Of Independence...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.-- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


That People are the sovereigns who create government... and the moral legitimacy of that government is derived from the consent of the governed. Much of these core principles was compromised away in the Constitution to satisfy states and special interests while still giving lip service to those principles. Much of the American psyche revolves trying to bang square pegs into round hole... believing our antidemocratic system is still democratic... or that if we have a republic, then it doesn't need democratic principles. And the fact is our electoral system can't accurately measure the will of the People, and the political system can't implement that will.

So perhaps rather that use the term "democracy" which some have bastardized into the wolves and the sheep metaphor we should use the term democratic principles.




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That is a very tricky question to answer el_bryanto Jan 2017 #1
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner. DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2017 #2
sheep and wolves: that's the right wing meme eniwetok Jan 2017 #4
If we had a plebiscitary democracy a lot of the rights we now enjoy we would no longer have. DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2017 #7
more right wing memes... eniwetok Jan 2017 #13
So what kind of system did we have in those 3-4 years between ratification and the Bill Of Rights? DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2017 #14
you're evading the question eniwetok Jan 2017 #19
you're still not dealing with your contradictions... eniwetok Jan 2017 #20
"...then where should a citizen's loyalties be?" myohmy2 Jan 2017 #3
conversely... if eniwetok Jan 2017 #5
But is it? It's a long read, but still nobody's done it better than... TreasonousBastard Jan 2017 #6
There is a difference between democracy and liberal democracy. DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2017 #9
I think you meant "hate", but the term "democracy" has so many... TreasonousBastard Jan 2017 #12
leaving aside your strawman argument eniwetok Jan 2017 #36
and these other forms of morally legitimate government are? eniwetok Jan 2017 #21
What if "the people" decided to try out that philosopher king for a while? It's not so easy to... TreasonousBastard Jan 2017 #22
spoken like a true apologist for the system eniwetok Jan 2017 #23
We still haven't seen your better sytem. TreasonousBastard Jan 2017 #25
easy answer... some basic principles... eniwetok Jan 2017 #34
are you EVER going to explain eniwetok Jan 2017 #37
faith-based politics eniwetok Jan 2017 #24
Be as appalled as you like-- people built the system and people maintain it... TreasonousBastard Jan 2017 #26
so did YOUR god give us our system eniwetok Jan 2017 #29
No, but I still have no idea what your point could possibly be... TreasonousBastard Jan 2017 #32
RED HERRING ALERT!! eniwetok Jan 2017 #33
yours was a non-answer designed to end discussion eniwetok Jan 2017 #35
With that principle, LWolf Jan 2017 #8
Since 1789.... eniwetok Jan 2017 #10
Our system is riddled LWolf Jan 2017 #11
the Senate doesn't stop majority rule... it permits minority rule eniwetok Jan 2017 #15
And that's why LWolf Jan 2017 #16
who's the minority? eniwetok Jan 2017 #17
we were sold a bill of goods eniwetok Jan 2017 #18
In our system there is no difference between principle and the Democratic Party gulliver Jan 2017 #27
Really? eniwetok Jan 2017 #30
The principles are what matter FiveGoodMen Jan 2017 #28
Michael Parenti got it right ages ago malaise Jan 2017 #31
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