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JHan

(10,173 posts)
12. The problem is these anti trade anti automation arguments barely scratch the surface...
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 10:23 PM
Jan 2017

Why I get upset with blaming trade deals: it's senseless. High tariffs and trade wars don't help people, or small business owners.

I'll just paste what I wrote elsewhere in a thread about automation/mechanization:

We can look at Germany: Germany, for example, lost less jobs than we did, despite increased automation, which is not to say they didn't lose jobs but job loss occurred at a slower pace than we experienced here. Germany is also strongly unionized.

The culture in Germany is different to ours - here, our business approach places too much stock in shareholder value, which is great for profit in the short term but terrible for sustained wealth creation. This culture permeates our approach in everything - and contributed to the spending and lending habits which led to the crash..this is why blaming Glass Steagall for the crash was always myopic and .. frankly stupid.

The problem in the U.S of A is that we don't invest in US - the people - enough. We prioritize profit above all else.

Illustrating Germany for contrast:

Germany set about enacting a range of comprehensive economic reforms to increase the competitiveness of Germany’s economy throughout the 2000s, including making its tax code more competitive, articulating The High-Tech Strategy for Germany, increasing investment in apprenticeship programs, increasing investment in its Fraunhofer network focusing on investments in industrially relevant applied R&D, and during the Great Recession introducing the Kurzarbeit (short-time work) program. Kurzarbeit helped [bGerman companies respond to the drop in global demand engendered by the Great Recession not by firing workers outright (as was too often the case in the United States), but by cutting their work to part-time and using the remaining time to retrain/reskill them (through a program collaboratively funded by German industry, labor unions, and state and federal governments) and so when global demand recovered German firms were fully staffed, and with a workforce reskilled to leverage the technologies and manufacturing processes of the future. And of course, Germany is not alone; many more of America’s competitors—including Japan, Korea, Holland, Taiwan, and even China—worked feverishly throughout the 2000s to bolster their science, technology, and innovation ecosystems that underpin the competitiveness and innovation potential of their private sector enterprises]."

We didn't adopt much of those strategies for a number of reasons - the German government controlled these initiatives for the most part, and we have to contend with sily anti-government republican thinking here.

And "Competitiveness at a crossroads" explains it more in detail:

http://www.hbs.edu/competitiveness/Documents/competitiveness-at-a-crossroads.pdf

"international firms became less invested in “the commons”—shared resources such as pools of skilled labor, supplier networks, an educated populace, and the physical and technical infrastructure on which U.S. productivity and competitiveness depend.
"


This is where the elites failed - the problem wasn't Globalization but our stupid greedy response to it (greed isn't bad but stupid greed is dumb), and the failure to protect the middle class:

"How did America respond to pressure on its middle class? Unfortunately,our society did not mobilize to invest so that the middle class could compete in the global marketplace. Instead, America and Americans maintained an illusion of growing prosperity. Abetted by lenders and government institutions, consumers with stagnant incomes borrowed more to buy houses and fund consumption.

Government itself made unsustainable promises to the middle class, pledging to cover more healthcare expenses of future retirees, to employ more individuals in government jobs, and to pay generous pensions to many in the public sector, while reducing effective tax rates across the board between 1980 and 2010. These promises, coupled with a deep recession and two wars, have left government finances in a fragile state.

As debts and unfunded liabilities have risen, federal, state, and local government expenditures that support long-run growth in productivity and competitiveness—on items such as infrastructure, training, education, and basic research—have stagnated or fallen as a portion of GDP. Moreover, a resulting need to make tough, unpalatable choices has contributed to paralysis in our political process."


Addressing some of those harmful effects was all over the democratic platform this year - even pressuring Wall St. When HRC spoke of the need for Wall St to see the value of regulation through regulating themselves she understood that public regulatory bodies cannot do everything - there has to be forms of self regulation. One of the ways to tackle it is to deal with consolidation since it hampers the ability of business to self regulate, there are other methods as well.

Hopefully I'm making sense because in a nutshell, protectionist ideas and demonizing trade deals make for great slogans but don't solve the underlying problems with management/culture. These problems require creative solutions across the board - and above all we need to acknowledge that the job market is forever changing.

2016 revealed how ill prepared we are - not a single debate question dealt with automation and mechanization - which is crazy - and HRC was the only candidate who had some semblance of a tech plan.

Even Climate Change was ignored in the Presidential Debates.

We're sipping some strange kool aid when we think we will get the 50's and 60's back. We can't afford retro thinking right now.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Personally, I think it is 95+% automation. I also think our future, be it with guaranteed income or Hoyt Jan 2017 #1
Where I live it's 95% free trade hollowdweller Jan 2017 #2
There is no evidence that free trade is responsible for anywhere near that many jobs mythology Jan 2017 #7
That is the Free Traders bullshit excuse. Demsrule86 Jan 2017 #10
At the same time those jobs were supposedly shipped overseas, Honda, Toyota, Siemens, BMW, etc., Hoyt Jan 2017 #14
I don't know how many times I can see another job lost Jim Beard Jan 2017 #33
Those jobs didn't go overseas. Loss of radio stations probably has more to do with Internet and Hoyt Jan 2017 #37
This is true but because of the internet Jim Beard Jan 2017 #45
I want to add the simple invention of voice caller systems.... Jim Beard Jan 2017 #85
You said hollowdweller Jan 2017 #72
Toyota starts people at 14 an hour here I believe. hollowdweller Jan 2017 #73
Monsanto sent my friends Dad hollowdweller Jan 2017 #70
ROTF: Look at the chart below: Since the recession ended in 2009 eniwetok Jan 2017 #13
I'm with you on the guaranteed income thing. Ken Burch Jan 2017 #3
How would a foreign corporation force reduction in social spending? Hoyt Jan 2017 #5
By challenging it as a subsidy to domestic corporations Ken Burch Jan 2017 #8
Yet Canada and Trudeau are supporting TPP. I'd like to see a link to the case you cite. Hoyt Jan 2017 #11
I'm aware of a number of BainsBane Jan 2017 #29
Those provisions have been in trade agreements since at least 1959. Both Canada and Mexico are eager Hoyt Jan 2017 #34
I wasn't aware of that BainsBane Jan 2017 #43
so why don't corps just automate in the US? why do they move their factories overseas? nt TheFrenchRazor Jan 2017 #61
Razor, a lot of them do just automate here, eliminating millions of jobs. What do you have against Hoyt Jan 2017 #68
wages hollowdweller Jan 2017 #71
yeah, guaranteed income is totally going to happen. NOT. but thanks for helping get rid of our jobs. TheFrenchRazor Jan 2017 #62
Assuming you are young, I'd suggest training for jobs that are resistant to technology, outsourcing, Hoyt Jan 2017 #69
That's the line we just used in the election. hollowdweller Jan 2017 #74
What's your solution. You could have said, "All TVs will be made in America, and you can pay 3 times Hoyt Jan 2017 #77
There are benefits to automation that are hard to deny Kilgore Jan 2017 #4
Depends hollowdweller Jan 2017 #75
Automation includes technology. How many clerical and other jobs have computers eliminated? Hoyt Jan 2017 #6
it does matter if you are talking about certain jobs coming back JI7 Jan 2017 #9
People don't want "certain jobs". OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #22
but they do want "certain" jobs as seen with coal country JI7 Jan 2017 #24
Again, no. OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #41
who has made the promise before ? the only thing they have voted for was coal JI7 Jan 2017 #42
Again, no. OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #46
once again, it shows nothing about who they voted for that let them down JI7 Jan 2017 #47
Wow. Serious misunderstandings. OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #48
who made promises and broke them ? they have voted for coal everytime , coal has destroyed them and JI7 Jan 2017 #49
To repeat: OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #51
yeah, i'm the elitist and a wealthy east coat nyc white man like donald trump is the common man for JI7 Jan 2017 #52
No one is arguing for Trump. OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #53
LOL , they VOTED FOR trump . IT'S WHAT THEY WANT JI7 Jan 2017 #54
You've met every coal miner in the country and all of them voted for Trump? OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #55
i'm not disregarding them. i'm acknowledging them and their reason for voting the way they did JI7 Jan 2017 #56
In what post did you acknowledge anything about them except your OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #59
it is a fact most of them voted for Trump JI7 Jan 2017 #60
No, I am saying OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #66
He's not. He's a rich yankee. hollowdweller Jan 2017 #79
Wrong hollowdweller Jan 2017 #78
Exactly hollowdweller Jan 2017 #76
Too many people that count themselves "environmentalists" OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #84
The problem is these anti trade anti automation arguments barely scratch the surface... JHan Jan 2017 #12
Don't jump to conclusions. OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #19
It's far from perfect however: JHan Jan 2017 #28
Wow. Serious misunderstandings. OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #35
Well I never "attacked" Trumka... JHan Jan 2017 #64
No I guess you didn't read them. OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #65
Interesting post BainsBane Jan 2017 #23
Yep, no chance of that culture changing with Trump. JHan Jan 2017 #30
That's because Germany actually cares about how its citizens fare, since the Nay Jan 2017 #83
Yeah but what if we used the tarriffs to create a big gov't jobs program? hollowdweller Jan 2017 #81
Progressives embraced globalization as part of the UN Millennial Development Goals (MDG). TheBlackAdder Jan 2017 #15
Exactly. OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #17
You might remember DU OPs and posts last year, supporting sending jobs to countries to lift wages. TheBlackAdder Jan 2017 #20
And this is all reflective of the decline of American empire BainsBane Jan 2017 #21
Actually no. OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #36
The hilarious part were all the columns and posts last year OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #25
The TPP would have given China keys to the kingdom. They would be able to undercut TPP partners. TheBlackAdder Jan 2017 #26
This message was self-deleted by its author BainsBane Jan 2017 #27
Yep. OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #40
gapminder disagrees joshcryer Jan 2017 #58
Doesn't surprise me, as they promote globalization and poverty reduction measures. TheBlackAdder Jan 2017 #63
It is for defenders of corporate trade. OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #16
Automation predates trade deals BainsBane Jan 2017 #18
It's too bad you don't know that corporations did dominate trade when NAFTA was passed. OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #31
Obviously corporations did BainsBane Jan 2017 #32
You continue to misunderstand. OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #39
I am not demeaning anyone BainsBane Jan 2017 #44
I'm not insulted. OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #50
I lost two jobs at companies that moved to Mexico for cheaper labor. Buckeye_Democrat Jan 2017 #38
If it was trade deals then the jobs could come back. joshcryer Jan 2017 #57
You ignore globalization itself -- jobs were moving to cheaper places, in the US and overseas before karynnj Jan 2017 #67
My father rarely worked for corporations back in the 50's. The companies... Buckeye_Democrat Jan 2017 #82
Very well said. Nt karynnj Jan 2017 #87
Not my intent to ignore it-I see NAFTA and TPP as manifestations of globalization. Ken Burch Jan 2017 #86
Bookmarking to read later. There are some excellent arguments on both sides here. LongTomH Jan 2017 #80
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