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lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)

164. No, you said that we can teach empathy.

Mon Jun 25, 2012, 05:34 PM

Jun 2012

(Setting aside the inherent premise for the moment) Everything you learn is trapped in your frontal lobes. In a conflict between recalling the empathy lessons and the impulse of wanting your 13 year old friends to laugh at your jokes, the impulse always wins.

Coming back to the basic premise, I dispute that you can learn empathy. You might learn something about others which makes you feel more or less empathetic toward them, but you don't learn the emotion, and besides, the stories about the others which were intended to make you feel more empathy toward them are still trapped behind the front-brain firewall.

Adolescence is a period in which the best case scenario is that the kids don't do something so stupid that it stays with them into adulthood, when they can reflect on their teen years and wonder what they were thinking. All you're trying to do is prevent bad behavior until age 20 or so.

If shame gets the job done, I'm okay with it.

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Judge: 13-year-old girl gets lighter sentence if her ponytail gets cut off [View all] tawadi Jun 2012 OP

I don't think a Gilbert & Sullivan choice is going to do the trick. no_hypocrisy Jun 2012 #1

I'm all for creative sentencing tawadi Jun 2012 #3

Weird Willard's lucky he didn't face that judge. Octafish Jun 2012 #2

so does her mother. iemitsu Jun 2012 #4

Yes, counseling would be a more appropriate ruling. eom tawadi Jun 2012 #5

Uhm, how is it that the mother/guardian/sitter isn't being held responsible Lionessa Jun 2012 #6

Good question. eom tawadi Jun 2012 #7

I too wonder where the mother was SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #8

I'm more concerned that a 13-year old is making phone calls with threats of tammywammy Jun 2012 #9

That leaped out at me too Aerows Jun 2012 #107

That's another issue entirely. Not part of the 13-yo's criminal proceedings. kestrel91316 Jun 2012 #10

Cutting of a 3yos hair is what the charge is, according to the OPs excerpt. Lionessa Jun 2012 #12

Play palace? abelenkpe Jun 2012 #15

It shouldn't, imo, and I believe there are signs specifically saying not to leave children unattende Lionessa Jun 2012 #125

Please tell me you are not that obtuse. joeglow3 Jun 2012 #135

For a 3 year old, it's not obtuse. They don't need chains, but parents should be have LOS at every Lionessa Jun 2012 #139

Great, I'll have to tell my two and a half year old not to go down the spiral slide anymore snooper2 Jun 2012 #144

Okay then be a ridiculously exaggerative poster then. Lionessa Jun 2012 #157

"should be have LOS at every moment" your words snooper2 Jun 2012 #158

Nit picking. Please define a moment. Lionessa Jun 2012 #159

Well, since I'm in telecom a moment is a pretty small period of time snooper2 Jun 2012 #161

Children are not unattended abelenkpe Jun 2012 #150

The 13 year-old committed a crime. sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #44

Age 13 is not a child, but a out of control young teenager!. My Mom always crunch60 Jun 2012 #116

Separate issue and not part of the story nadinbrzezinski Jun 2012 #58

At most partially responsible. After all, it is no defense to a crime... Honeycombe8 Jun 2012 #103

Oops. posted twice.nt Honeycombe8 Jun 2012 #104

Kids are sneaky.... blueamy66 Jun 2012 #174

Because their guardian didn't commit the assault Scootaloo Jun 2012 #176

NO. I'm tired of lazy, distracted parents getting off after not doing their jobs. Lionessa Jun 2012 #180

Know what you sound like? Scootaloo Jun 2012 #182

No, I don't. Republicans are the ones who like to fry children for criminal offenses, and send Lionessa Jun 2012 #183

Yes, I'm afraid you do Scootaloo Jun 2012 #184

Then be afraid, be very afraid, because you're just typing excuses for adults, Lionessa Jun 2012 #185

Fine by me. It's a choice, not a requirement. NYC Liberal Jun 2012 #11

Right, it's not like cutting off hands tawadi Jun 2012 #13

Probably not as intimidating as being a 3 year old and having two older kids cut off a chunk of hair SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #17

Would cutting off a young girls hair in a courtroom have a positive impact? tawadi Jun 2012 #22

Perhaps SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #24

Punishment is punishment. It's not rehabilitation. Sounds like a good idea to me. nt Honeycombe8 Jun 2012 #105

intimidation only applies to perps then? this kid can learn how the other side roguevalley Jun 2012 #117

I've heard that in some original, intact cultures BanzaiBonnie Jun 2012 #14

I like your attitude. ZombieHorde Jun 2012 #21

seems fair. Liberal_in_LA Jun 2012 #16

Sounds fair to me. HappyMe Jun 2012 #18

If the Eighth Amendment's prohibition against "unusual" punishments is still applicable in Utah, AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #19

Your argument is baseless SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #20

Giving a choice between an excessive punishment and an unusual one is a violation of the AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #25

Please SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #26

Under a literal reading (which you imply is the only appropriate interpretation), the 8th Amend AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #32

Is this merely your opinon, or can you cite precedent for your assertion? cherokeeprogressive Jun 2012 #27

You are right in the sense that giving a choice would raise a presumption that the second punishment AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #28

Just as I thought SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #30

Just a cursory search on google returns the following SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #39

As you observed, "Only a truly outrageous alternative sentence for a relatively minor crime would be AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #62

I didn't make the assertion, YOU did. cherokeeprogressive Jun 2012 #63

You, not I stated, "and how can it be stated without doubt that the second punishment is always AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #69

That's an awful lot of words when all you needed to say is cherokeeprogressive Jun 2012 #75

You're referring to yourself as having fun. Are you saying that you're a troll? AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #110

One doesn't need to be a troll in order to cherokeeprogressive Jun 2012 #113

Classic response to getting your ass handed to you joeglow3 Jun 2012 #137

IMO your argument would make much more ProgressiveEconomist Jun 2012 #34

You're right that the law sometimes treats the Constitutional rights of adults different than minors AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #49

That's a good point treestar Jun 2012 #67

The protection is against "cruel AND unusual punishment" not cruel OR unusual. morningfog Jun 2012 #114

What the judge did was both "cruel AND unusual." AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #115

He gave her the choice. She could have just taken the full community service time. morningfog Jun 2012 #119

A great many other people posting on this board think that the choice was given to the mother: AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #123

A little unusual yes, but certainly not cruel. When the 13 year old looks in crunch60 Jun 2012 #121

The Constitution JonLP24 Jun 2012 #134

The Supreme Court was spent a couple of centuries morningfog Jun 2012 #149

So when there was no DP JonLP24 Jun 2012 #153

I've seen many young kids from the youth authority, conventional punishment crunch60 Jun 2012 #120

Seems fair to me. blueamy66 Jun 2012 #23

I agree 100%. OrwellwasRight Jun 2012 #29

No, assaulting children is not justice. EFerrari Jun 2012 #33

Her mother cutting her hair is assault? n/t tammywammy Jun 2012 #35

What part of violence doesn't teach empathy is unclear? EFerrari Jun 2012 #38

The 13 year old cutting the 3 year old's hair was assault tammywammy Jun 2012 #42

You don't teach a kid respect for other people's boundaries EFerrari Jun 2012 #47

This kid already has plenty of problems. HappyMe Jun 2012 #52

So, giving her one more will fix her? EFerrari Jun 2012 #56

So, what? HappyMe Jun 2012 #64

I love the way defenders of shaming children as a teaching tool EFerrari Jun 2012 #65

The mother made the choice SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #71

Right, parents are never intimidated by anyone and always make good choices, EFerrari Jun 2012 #76

Intimidated by what? SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #81

Where was the parent of the 13 year old while she was lopping off blueamy66 Jun 2012 #128

Good question. HappyMe Jun 2012 #136

Shaming children? blueamy66 Jun 2012 #175

Please point to the post where I said all children are innocent babies. Thanks. EFerrari Jun 2012 #178

maybe I missed something blueamy66 Jun 2012 #179

Then the mother shouldn't have done it SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #46

That's right. The mother shouldn't have done it. EFerrari Jun 2012 #53

It would appear that way SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #57

Nobody has assaulted the defendant. blueamy66 Jun 2012 #37

Having your hair cut by court order is an assault on your physical integrity. EFerrari Jun 2012 #41

The 13 year old girl assaulted a 3 year old. HappyMe Jun 2012 #45

Oh, for Christsake. Yes, get her counseling where she will have to deal with EFerrari Jun 2012 #50

Her mother chose the punishment. HappyMe Jun 2012 #55

That would be the mother of a girl who attacked a 3 year old with scissors? EFerrari Jun 2012 #60

Oh please. blueamy66 Jun 2012 #130

You seem to be admiting to poor impulse control, amy. EFerrari Jun 2012 #168

so you agree with me blueamy66 Jun 2012 #169

So I have poor impulse control. Or it could be called LOVE. blueamy66 Jun 2012 #173

Her hair wasn't cut by court order SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #48

So what would you suggest as appropriate justice for this dysfunctional duo? crunch60 Jun 2012 #122

she is 13, not 11 blueamy66 Jun 2012 #129

If it was assault to cut the 3 yos, how is it not assault to force cut the 13yos? Lionessa Jun 2012 #140

For the same reason that a prison is legal but locking someone in your basement is not (nt) jeff47 Jun 2012 #163

Sounds like an UNFORGETTABLE lesson in the Golden Rule ProgressiveEconomist Jun 2012 #31

Of course it's retribution. EFerrari Jun 2012 #36

Hurting them? SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #51

How confusing though, when she's being accused of assault for cutting hair w/out permission Lionessa Jun 2012 #142

'teach children compassion'. I don't think that's possible ProgressiveEconomist Jun 2012 #68

Wtf? All children LEARN compassion EFerrari Jun 2012 #79

great post blueamy66 Jun 2012 #40

The Golden Rule is an application of SYMMETRY ProgressiveEconomist Jun 2012 #61

Yes, I was raised that way. blueamy66 Jun 2012 #186

Contributing to social rituals bears absolutely no relation EFerrari Jun 2012 #43

You don't think she should be ashamed of what she did? n/t SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #54

It's not that. EFerrari Jun 2012 #59

I disagree cabot Jun 2012 #66

No, shame is toxic to the emotional development of human beings. EFerrari Jun 2012 #72

Children are not precious little snowflakes who will melt via shame cabot Jun 2012 #77

I was raised a girl in a Latino Catholic family so you have nothin' on me. EFerrari Jun 2012 #89

He makes them work for a particular flower shop? Does he have any ownership interest in the AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #94

WHY SHAMING DOESN'T WORK EFerrari Jun 2012 #70

We'll just have to disagree cabot Jun 2012 #73

Feeling ashamed over something you have done EFerrari Jun 2012 #74

You're conflating shame and guilt backscatter712 Jun 2012 #124

From your post SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #78

Exactly! cabot Jun 2012 #82

Being shown how others feel is not the same as EFerrari Jun 2012 #83

Trauma? SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #90

Does Shaming Children Have the Opposite Effect? EFerrari Jun 2012 #92

Feel free, post it all you want SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #93

"Little monster"? Really? EFerrari Jun 2012 #95

Yep, little monster SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #96

Yep, she is a monster. blueamy66 Jun 2012 #187

I actually agree with this article: ProgressiveEconomist Jun 2012 #80

I can and I did tawadi Jun 2012 #84

What, in your mind, would have been a proper punishment for this assault? n/t SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #87

Counseling tawadi Jun 2012 #88

So you don't believe there should be any punishment for the assault of a toddler? SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #91

Working with victims of crime is also called community service. eom tawadi Jun 2012 #99

Community service is not a punishment SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #100

I'm with you SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #85

Because there are endless ways to help the older kid empathize EFerrari Jun 2012 #86

If shame works to control behavior, that's good enough. n/t lumberjack_jeff Jun 2012 #101

It doesn't. That's the point. EFerrari Jun 2012 #126

The best you can hope for is to control negative behavior until their brains are fully formed. lumberjack_jeff Jun 2012 #138

Between letting kids practice bad behavior & shaming, there are a lot of measures that can be taken. EFerrari Jun 2012 #146

Shame is an inherent feature. lumberjack_jeff Jun 2012 #151

Shame may be inherent but shaming is not, no. EFerrari Jun 2012 #155

The brains are the same from childhood to adolescence... lumberjack_jeff Jun 2012 #160

I don't recall claiming we can reason with kids as we can with adults. EFerrari Jun 2012 #162

No, you said that we can teach empathy. lumberjack_jeff Jun 2012 #164

Actually, I said violence doesn't teach empathy. EFerrari Jun 2012 #165

Hitting with a 2x4 and a judge cutting a deal involving a ponytail are qualitatively different. lumberjack_jeff Jun 2012 #172

She probably got the idea of cutting off someones hair as a prank from Romney. Auntie Bush Jun 2012 #97

Doubtful SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #98

+1000000 L0oniX Jun 2012 #148

Whole big pieces of weird / dark context missing from this story. DirkGently Jun 2012 #102

I'm wondering why the mother hadn't already done that before they got to court. Honeycombe8 Jun 2012 #106

So, you'd teach your kid to do better EFerrari Jun 2012 #166

Yep. Nothing makes a kid realize what it feels like to be on the end of damage.... Honeycombe8 Jun 2012 #171

Sounds like my Mom. blueamy66 Jun 2012 #188

This ruling kind of reminds me of Judge Michael Cicconetti, the most bizzare judge ever AJTheMan Jun 2012 #108

Yep. He's one of the gimmicky judges who enjoys publicity and self-promotion. AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #111

Or Larry Seidlin, the judge who started weeping as the Anna Nicole Smith trial was being decided nt AJTheMan Jun 2012 #112

13 years old Daninmo Jun 2012 #109

I don't have any problem with her ponytial cut off either. LisaL Jun 2012 #133

I hate it when thirteen-year-olds act like the Republican nominee for President. Vattel Jun 2012 #118

I was going to say why not, its not mandatory clang1 Jun 2012 #127

key phrase: "Lopan and an 11-year-old friend met a 3-year-old girl at a McDonald's" SoCalDem Jun 2012 #131

Many McDonalds LisaL Jun 2012 #132

Ours had one as well, but when my boys played there SoCalDem Jun 2012 #141

I see from 2-14 in there all the time snooper2 Jun 2012 #145

This thread is full of excellent arguments against such a punishment but crim son Jun 2012 #143

That would be just repeating and re-enforcing the original trauma. EFerrari Jun 2012 #167

The Twilight wormhole tawadi Jun 2012 #190

So the punishment is assault for assault ....pffft another fucked up judge, L0oniX Jun 2012 #147

The whole idea of any kind of sentence, light or severe, for a 13 year old is ludicrous Sanity Claws Jun 2012 #152

I can see the point of people that don't agree with the ponytail being cut off SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #170

Really? blueamy66 Jun 2012 #189

The mom is just as sick as the child ecstatic Jun 2012 #154

Seems like the shaming began with the release of the juvenile's identity. bluedigger Jun 2012 #156

the girl has some really deep issues that won`t be resolved by this action madrchsod Jun 2012 #177

This is screwy. xxqqqzme Jun 2012 #181