General Discussion

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)

176. Because their guardian didn't commit the assault

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 07:53 AM

Jun 2012

Seriously folks, get over this "It's always the parent / guardian's fault!" complex. I know it makes you feel good to waggle a finger at someone you consider "bad parents" - after all, don't these people read parenting magazines in the checkout like all you good, hyper-vigilant parents who keep your kids frozen in carbonite?

Three year-olds have this funny habit of being mobile. They are usually very mobile. And amazingly, cranking a kid out of your crotch, while certainly a life-changing event that is beyond my capabilities, does not grant you actual super powers. In fact it probably dulls any super-powers you have, because you're watching this toddling nightmare made of fragile meat and mouthing compulsions most of your waking day (Well, most of the KID'S waking day; all of your days are now "waking&quot . it can be tiring. Exhausting even. And surprisingly, parents are human beings, and not sitcom supermoms / wonderdads, and at times they look away. Or need to take a potty break. or simply fall over from exhaustion and the realization that their life as independent human beings is now over for another 17 years.

Cut 'em some damn slack.

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Judge: 13-year-old girl gets lighter sentence if her ponytail gets cut off [View all] tawadi Jun 2012 OP

I don't think a Gilbert & Sullivan choice is going to do the trick. no_hypocrisy Jun 2012 #1

I'm all for creative sentencing tawadi Jun 2012 #3

Weird Willard's lucky he didn't face that judge. Octafish Jun 2012 #2

so does her mother. iemitsu Jun 2012 #4

Yes, counseling would be a more appropriate ruling. eom tawadi Jun 2012 #5

Uhm, how is it that the mother/guardian/sitter isn't being held responsible Lionessa Jun 2012 #6

Good question. eom tawadi Jun 2012 #7

I too wonder where the mother was SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #8

I'm more concerned that a 13-year old is making phone calls with threats of tammywammy Jun 2012 #9

That leaped out at me too Aerows Jun 2012 #107

That's another issue entirely. Not part of the 13-yo's criminal proceedings. kestrel91316 Jun 2012 #10

Cutting of a 3yos hair is what the charge is, according to the OPs excerpt. Lionessa Jun 2012 #12

Play palace? abelenkpe Jun 2012 #15

It shouldn't, imo, and I believe there are signs specifically saying not to leave children unattende Lionessa Jun 2012 #125

Please tell me you are not that obtuse. joeglow3 Jun 2012 #135

For a 3 year old, it's not obtuse. They don't need chains, but parents should be have LOS at every Lionessa Jun 2012 #139

Great, I'll have to tell my two and a half year old not to go down the spiral slide anymore snooper2 Jun 2012 #144

Okay then be a ridiculously exaggerative poster then. Lionessa Jun 2012 #157

"should be have LOS at every moment" your words snooper2 Jun 2012 #158

Nit picking. Please define a moment. Lionessa Jun 2012 #159

Well, since I'm in telecom a moment is a pretty small period of time snooper2 Jun 2012 #161

Children are not unattended abelenkpe Jun 2012 #150

The 13 year-old committed a crime. sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #44

Age 13 is not a child, but a out of control young teenager!. My Mom always crunch60 Jun 2012 #116

Separate issue and not part of the story nadinbrzezinski Jun 2012 #58

At most partially responsible. After all, it is no defense to a crime... Honeycombe8 Jun 2012 #103

Oops. posted twice.nt Honeycombe8 Jun 2012 #104

Kids are sneaky.... blueamy66 Jun 2012 #174

Because their guardian didn't commit the assault Scootaloo Jun 2012 #176

NO. I'm tired of lazy, distracted parents getting off after not doing their jobs. Lionessa Jun 2012 #180

Know what you sound like? Scootaloo Jun 2012 #182

No, I don't. Republicans are the ones who like to fry children for criminal offenses, and send Lionessa Jun 2012 #183

Yes, I'm afraid you do Scootaloo Jun 2012 #184

Then be afraid, be very afraid, because you're just typing excuses for adults, Lionessa Jun 2012 #185

Fine by me. It's a choice, not a requirement. NYC Liberal Jun 2012 #11

Right, it's not like cutting off hands tawadi Jun 2012 #13

Probably not as intimidating as being a 3 year old and having two older kids cut off a chunk of hair SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #17

Would cutting off a young girls hair in a courtroom have a positive impact? tawadi Jun 2012 #22

Perhaps SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #24

Punishment is punishment. It's not rehabilitation. Sounds like a good idea to me. nt Honeycombe8 Jun 2012 #105

intimidation only applies to perps then? this kid can learn how the other side roguevalley Jun 2012 #117

I've heard that in some original, intact cultures BanzaiBonnie Jun 2012 #14

I like your attitude. ZombieHorde Jun 2012 #21

seems fair. Liberal_in_LA Jun 2012 #16

Sounds fair to me. HappyMe Jun 2012 #18

If the Eighth Amendment's prohibition against "unusual" punishments is still applicable in Utah, AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #19

Your argument is baseless SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #20

Giving a choice between an excessive punishment and an unusual one is a violation of the AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #25

Please SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #26

Under a literal reading (which you imply is the only appropriate interpretation), the 8th Amend AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #32

Is this merely your opinon, or can you cite precedent for your assertion? cherokeeprogressive Jun 2012 #27

You are right in the sense that giving a choice would raise a presumption that the second punishment AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #28

Just as I thought SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #30

Just a cursory search on google returns the following SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #39

As you observed, "Only a truly outrageous alternative sentence for a relatively minor crime would be AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #62

I didn't make the assertion, YOU did. cherokeeprogressive Jun 2012 #63

You, not I stated, "and how can it be stated without doubt that the second punishment is always AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #69

That's an awful lot of words when all you needed to say is cherokeeprogressive Jun 2012 #75

You're referring to yourself as having fun. Are you saying that you're a troll? AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #110

One doesn't need to be a troll in order to cherokeeprogressive Jun 2012 #113

Classic response to getting your ass handed to you joeglow3 Jun 2012 #137

IMO your argument would make much more ProgressiveEconomist Jun 2012 #34

You're right that the law sometimes treats the Constitutional rights of adults different than minors AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #49

That's a good point treestar Jun 2012 #67

The protection is against "cruel AND unusual punishment" not cruel OR unusual. morningfog Jun 2012 #114

What the judge did was both "cruel AND unusual." AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #115

He gave her the choice. She could have just taken the full community service time. morningfog Jun 2012 #119

A great many other people posting on this board think that the choice was given to the mother: AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #123

A little unusual yes, but certainly not cruel. When the 13 year old looks in crunch60 Jun 2012 #121

The Constitution JonLP24 Jun 2012 #134

The Supreme Court was spent a couple of centuries morningfog Jun 2012 #149

So when there was no DP JonLP24 Jun 2012 #153

I've seen many young kids from the youth authority, conventional punishment crunch60 Jun 2012 #120

Seems fair to me. blueamy66 Jun 2012 #23

I agree 100%. OrwellwasRight Jun 2012 #29

No, assaulting children is not justice. EFerrari Jun 2012 #33

Her mother cutting her hair is assault? n/t tammywammy Jun 2012 #35

What part of violence doesn't teach empathy is unclear? EFerrari Jun 2012 #38

The 13 year old cutting the 3 year old's hair was assault tammywammy Jun 2012 #42

You don't teach a kid respect for other people's boundaries EFerrari Jun 2012 #47

This kid already has plenty of problems. HappyMe Jun 2012 #52

So, giving her one more will fix her? EFerrari Jun 2012 #56

So, what? HappyMe Jun 2012 #64

I love the way defenders of shaming children as a teaching tool EFerrari Jun 2012 #65

The mother made the choice SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #71

Right, parents are never intimidated by anyone and always make good choices, EFerrari Jun 2012 #76

Intimidated by what? SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #81

Where was the parent of the 13 year old while she was lopping off blueamy66 Jun 2012 #128

Good question. HappyMe Jun 2012 #136

Shaming children? blueamy66 Jun 2012 #175

Please point to the post where I said all children are innocent babies. Thanks. EFerrari Jun 2012 #178

maybe I missed something blueamy66 Jun 2012 #179

Then the mother shouldn't have done it SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #46

That's right. The mother shouldn't have done it. EFerrari Jun 2012 #53

It would appear that way SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #57

Nobody has assaulted the defendant. blueamy66 Jun 2012 #37

Having your hair cut by court order is an assault on your physical integrity. EFerrari Jun 2012 #41

The 13 year old girl assaulted a 3 year old. HappyMe Jun 2012 #45

Oh, for Christsake. Yes, get her counseling where she will have to deal with EFerrari Jun 2012 #50

Her mother chose the punishment. HappyMe Jun 2012 #55

That would be the mother of a girl who attacked a 3 year old with scissors? EFerrari Jun 2012 #60

Oh please. blueamy66 Jun 2012 #130

You seem to be admiting to poor impulse control, amy. EFerrari Jun 2012 #168

so you agree with me blueamy66 Jun 2012 #169

So I have poor impulse control. Or it could be called LOVE. blueamy66 Jun 2012 #173

Her hair wasn't cut by court order SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #48

So what would you suggest as appropriate justice for this dysfunctional duo? crunch60 Jun 2012 #122

she is 13, not 11 blueamy66 Jun 2012 #129

If it was assault to cut the 3 yos, how is it not assault to force cut the 13yos? Lionessa Jun 2012 #140

For the same reason that a prison is legal but locking someone in your basement is not (nt) jeff47 Jun 2012 #163

Sounds like an UNFORGETTABLE lesson in the Golden Rule ProgressiveEconomist Jun 2012 #31

Of course it's retribution. EFerrari Jun 2012 #36

Hurting them? SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #51

How confusing though, when she's being accused of assault for cutting hair w/out permission Lionessa Jun 2012 #142

'teach children compassion'. I don't think that's possible ProgressiveEconomist Jun 2012 #68

Wtf? All children LEARN compassion EFerrari Jun 2012 #79

great post blueamy66 Jun 2012 #40

The Golden Rule is an application of SYMMETRY ProgressiveEconomist Jun 2012 #61

Yes, I was raised that way. blueamy66 Jun 2012 #186

Contributing to social rituals bears absolutely no relation EFerrari Jun 2012 #43

You don't think she should be ashamed of what she did? n/t SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #54

It's not that. EFerrari Jun 2012 #59

I disagree cabot Jun 2012 #66

No, shame is toxic to the emotional development of human beings. EFerrari Jun 2012 #72

Children are not precious little snowflakes who will melt via shame cabot Jun 2012 #77

I was raised a girl in a Latino Catholic family so you have nothin' on me. EFerrari Jun 2012 #89

He makes them work for a particular flower shop? Does he have any ownership interest in the AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #94

WHY SHAMING DOESN'T WORK EFerrari Jun 2012 #70

We'll just have to disagree cabot Jun 2012 #73

Feeling ashamed over something you have done EFerrari Jun 2012 #74

You're conflating shame and guilt backscatter712 Jun 2012 #124

From your post SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #78

Exactly! cabot Jun 2012 #82

Being shown how others feel is not the same as EFerrari Jun 2012 #83

Trauma? SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #90

Does Shaming Children Have the Opposite Effect? EFerrari Jun 2012 #92

Feel free, post it all you want SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #93

"Little monster"? Really? EFerrari Jun 2012 #95

Yep, little monster SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #96

Yep, she is a monster. blueamy66 Jun 2012 #187

I actually agree with this article: ProgressiveEconomist Jun 2012 #80

I can and I did tawadi Jun 2012 #84

What, in your mind, would have been a proper punishment for this assault? n/t SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #87

Counseling tawadi Jun 2012 #88

So you don't believe there should be any punishment for the assault of a toddler? SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #91

Working with victims of crime is also called community service. eom tawadi Jun 2012 #99

Community service is not a punishment SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #100

I'm with you SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #85

Because there are endless ways to help the older kid empathize EFerrari Jun 2012 #86

If shame works to control behavior, that's good enough. n/t lumberjack_jeff Jun 2012 #101

It doesn't. That's the point. EFerrari Jun 2012 #126

The best you can hope for is to control negative behavior until their brains are fully formed. lumberjack_jeff Jun 2012 #138

Between letting kids practice bad behavior & shaming, there are a lot of measures that can be taken. EFerrari Jun 2012 #146

Shame is an inherent feature. lumberjack_jeff Jun 2012 #151

Shame may be inherent but shaming is not, no. EFerrari Jun 2012 #155

The brains are the same from childhood to adolescence... lumberjack_jeff Jun 2012 #160

I don't recall claiming we can reason with kids as we can with adults. EFerrari Jun 2012 #162

No, you said that we can teach empathy. lumberjack_jeff Jun 2012 #164

Actually, I said violence doesn't teach empathy. EFerrari Jun 2012 #165

Hitting with a 2x4 and a judge cutting a deal involving a ponytail are qualitatively different. lumberjack_jeff Jun 2012 #172

She probably got the idea of cutting off someones hair as a prank from Romney. Auntie Bush Jun 2012 #97

Doubtful SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #98

+1000000 L0oniX Jun 2012 #148

Whole big pieces of weird / dark context missing from this story. DirkGently Jun 2012 #102

I'm wondering why the mother hadn't already done that before they got to court. Honeycombe8 Jun 2012 #106

So, you'd teach your kid to do better EFerrari Jun 2012 #166

Yep. Nothing makes a kid realize what it feels like to be on the end of damage.... Honeycombe8 Jun 2012 #171

Sounds like my Mom. blueamy66 Jun 2012 #188

This ruling kind of reminds me of Judge Michael Cicconetti, the most bizzare judge ever AJTheMan Jun 2012 #108

Yep. He's one of the gimmicky judges who enjoys publicity and self-promotion. AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #111

Or Larry Seidlin, the judge who started weeping as the Anna Nicole Smith trial was being decided nt AJTheMan Jun 2012 #112

13 years old Daninmo Jun 2012 #109

I don't have any problem with her ponytial cut off either. LisaL Jun 2012 #133

I hate it when thirteen-year-olds act like the Republican nominee for President. Vattel Jun 2012 #118

I was going to say why not, its not mandatory clang1 Jun 2012 #127

key phrase: "Lopan and an 11-year-old friend met a 3-year-old girl at a McDonald's" SoCalDem Jun 2012 #131

Many McDonalds LisaL Jun 2012 #132

Ours had one as well, but when my boys played there SoCalDem Jun 2012 #141

I see from 2-14 in there all the time snooper2 Jun 2012 #145

This thread is full of excellent arguments against such a punishment but crim son Jun 2012 #143

That would be just repeating and re-enforcing the original trauma. EFerrari Jun 2012 #167

The Twilight wormhole tawadi Jun 2012 #190

So the punishment is assault for assault ....pffft another fucked up judge, L0oniX Jun 2012 #147

The whole idea of any kind of sentence, light or severe, for a 13 year old is ludicrous Sanity Claws Jun 2012 #152

I can see the point of people that don't agree with the ponytail being cut off SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2012 #170

Really? blueamy66 Jun 2012 #189

The mom is just as sick as the child ecstatic Jun 2012 #154

Seems like the shaming began with the release of the juvenile's identity. bluedigger Jun 2012 #156

the girl has some really deep issues that won`t be resolved by this action madrchsod Jun 2012 #177

This is screwy. xxqqqzme Jun 2012 #181