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Ms. Toad

(38,664 posts)
87. "thimerosal was totally removed from all childhood vaccines in 2001"
Wed Jun 27, 2012, 10:58 AM
Jun 2012

is inaccurate statement, offered to shut down discussion. I'll give you that it isn't a fact

The only reason to assert that thimerosal is no longer in vaccines is to tell the speaker that, on the really, really, really, off chance that there is something to their theory, the "cause" isn't present any more. End of discussion. Except that it isn't true.

I have never personally argued that thimerosal causes anything - my beef is with stating things which are inaccurate to shut down discussion (or stating the "fact" carelessly, and then digging in when the "fact" is proven false - as happened the last time I pointed out that some childhood vaccines do still contain thimerosal).

But for the sake of discussion - you are correct that correlation does not equal causation. It is, however, one of the standard starting points for scientific inquiry. Not everyone who expresses a concern about a correlation is mistaking it for causation - but may be instead be suggesting that a particular correlation should be further explored to see if causation can be established. And not all correlations are first noticed by the scientific community. I noticed a correlation between my daughter's poultry consumption and her disease activity, and because the correlation was very strong became pretty convinced of a particular disease pathway (genetic predisposition + environmental trigger). Several years after I was convinced, the national support group for disease adopted that explanation for the disease pathway. (I'm not claiming to have had anything to do with their change - just noting that a correlation I (as a lay person) observed in a one person "study" is now accepted as causation.)

The fact that no study has established a link between autism and vaccination does not necessarily mean there is no link. GWAS studies are in their infancy (but progressing very quickly). One of the things these studies are establishing is that many diseases once thought to be homogeneous are actually heterogeneous - at times nearly custom diseases even though the manifestation is similar enough that up until now they have been thought to be a single uniform disease. I don't know if that is where autism is trending - but I do know that these disease variations are now theorized to be the cause failures of multiple drug trials for my daughter's illness. Results which looked extremely promising turned out not only to be not promising, but actually harmful - in part because the population being studied was thought to all have the same disease so the results of the small study would be scalable to a larger study (or at least not dramatically different). Because there was a different disease variation mixture in the smaller group studies than in the ones they scaled to, the results were not as predicted - they were in fact the opposite of what the smaller study predicted and at least one trial was halted because it was deemed to be unethical to continue. What is now being done, though, is to go back to those smaller group studies and to type the disease by variant to see if there is a smaller population for whom the drugs actually are useful (rather than harmful).

So, in the case of autism, where similar GWAS studies are being undertaken, we may find similar things. The studies which have been unable to establish a link autism and vaccination are equivalent to the larger drug trials done on my daughter's disease - and are almost certainly applicable to the population of people with autism as a whole, but there may well be variants of autism which are too small to make a statistically significant difference in the large population studies. And, just like my daughter's illness, we may well need to return to this question to look at subgroups of people with autism to see whether, in populations with a particular disease variation, vaccination (or something in it, like the adjuvants most vaccines contain) is the (or one of the) environmental triggers for manifestation of autism.

I don't think that means you toss vaccinations out of the window - but I do think autism is one of many diseases, most of them immune related, which may have environmental triggers, which suggest that we rethink the balance between rote vaccination for everyone and (until exome sequencing is readily available and cheap enough to be worth the investment) systematic screening for indicators of special susceptibility - as well as taking a look at our overall scheme to see whether a different implementation would strike a better balance between societal needs and the likelihood of risk to vulnerable populations (based on what we are now learning about how autoimmune disorders work).

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Rebuttal in reverse chronology to the stupendously oversimplistic platitudes on that locked thread. proverbialwisdom Jun 2012 #1
Age of Autism? FFS... SidDithers Jun 2012 #2
Actually CNN, CBS, NPR in Boston, WNYC, and PBS are the sources for interviews with - proverbialwisdom Jun 2012 #3
Sorry, this is a stupendous pile of steaming horseshit Spider Jerusalem Jun 2012 #7
Find a source from 2012. Hint: does not exist, the field has evolved. proverbialwisdom Jun 2012 #11
I urge you to please spend some time reading this 2012 HARVARD HEALTH PUBLICATION. proverbialwisdom Jun 2012 #15
Are you a scientologist? snooper2 Jun 2012 #45
Good one. (eom) proverbialwisdom Jun 2012 #53
They must have had some evidence presented in Italian court? Ghost of Huey Long Jun 2012 #16
While I can't answer to the rest of your "debunking" 1monster Jun 2012 #36
There has never been any evidence Sgent Jun 2012 #65
Watch CNN'S interview with former CDC Chief Julie Gerberding on March 31, 2008 (post #1) . proverbialwisdom Jun 2012 #74
I think the transcript is sufficient, but for a copy of the video, instructions follow. proverbialwisdom Jun 2012 #76
Dupe. Deleted. n/t Ms. Toad Jun 2012 #80
You are wrong about the presence of thimerosol in vaccines. Ms. Toad Jun 2012 #81
well said and posters who pile on Tumbulu Jun 2012 #69
The MMR vaccine has never had thimerosal. Spider Jerusalem Jun 2012 #77
Thimerosal is still contained in some childhood vaccines Ms. Toad Jun 2012 #82
"use of inaccurate facts to shut down discussion"? Spider Jerusalem Jun 2012 #84
"thimerosal was totally removed from all childhood vaccines in 2001" Ms. Toad Jun 2012 #87
TL:DR, but the MMR vaccine (which is specifically at issue here).. Spider Jerusalem Jun 2012 #111
I did not bring up thimerosal. Ms. Toad Jun 2012 #112
The original post to which I was responding DID. Spider Jerusalem Jun 2012 #113
If you want to go that direction, Ms. Toad Jun 2012 #114
I thought they stopped using mercury a long time ago ryan_cats Jun 2012 #98
The original paper alleging a link between vaccines and autism is a proven fraud cpwm17 Jun 2012 #21
False. This is in the weeds for me, but if you are seriously interested, examine these with care. proverbialwisdom Jul 2012 #129
This message was self-deleted by its author Luminous Animal Jun 2012 #4
Unlocking. Luminous Animal Jun 2012 #5
Truthfully, posts #6 and #8 are in the weeds for me, but not for the AoA contributors, the majority proverbialwisdom Jun 2012 #9
You bet I have a personal stake SunsetDreams Jun 2012 #38
Truthfully, this subject makes me unspeakably sad and I will be stepping away for awhile. (eom) proverbialwisdom Jun 2012 #63
AoA as a source? obamanut2012 Jun 2012 #54
Post #3 describes the news aggregating function by AoA from mainstream sources. proverbialwisdom Jun 2012 #71
Good. This Italian court ruling is not a conspiracy theory. n/t lumberjack_jeff Jun 2012 #29
British Medical Journal: Science rules MMR didn't trigger autism Spider Jerusalem Jun 2012 #6
Manufacturing a controversy about the MMR vaccine SunsetDreams Jun 2012 #8
You mention Japan: their vaccines have NEVER contained mercury compounds Lydia Leftcoast Jun 2012 #20
Changing diagnoses can only explain about half of the increased prevalence. lumberjack_jeff Jun 2012 #32
Research being done SunsetDreams Jun 2012 #64
Of course its environmental toxins Drale Jun 2012 #126
I have to wonder if it's something that corporations make a lot of money off of Lydia Leftcoast Jun 2012 #128
So one locked thread over anti-vaccine bullshit wasn't enough? GarroHorus Jun 2012 #10
why did you alert on a news story from the Independent, that was a fast reaction too Ghost of Huey Long Jun 2012 #17
I have a special contempt for conspiracy theorists. n/t GarroHorus Jun 2012 #19
Pushing the antivac bullshit is killing people. Warren Stupidity Jun 2012 #33
Post removed Post removed Jun 2012 #52
I have special contempt for anti-vaxxer woo-woo. backscatter712 Jun 2012 #12
I had mumps, measles, and chickenpox as a kid GarroHorus Jun 2012 #13
+1 Chorophyll Jun 2012 #14
Amen! I had measles and chicken pox in the same year, and the secondary infections Lydia Leftcoast Jun 2012 #18
Because Vaccines have been useful in the past, we are all to now blindly believe Big Pharma Ghost of Huey Long Jun 2012 #22
Did you see my post about Japan? Lydia Leftcoast Jun 2012 #23
Maybe there is something else in it causing the problem. How can we fix it if we live in denial? Ghost of Huey Long Jun 2012 #26
just keep all your anti-vac friends away from my newborn granddaughter. n/t progressivebydesign Jun 2012 #37
Try a netti pot. tridim Jun 2012 #28
That's interesting, but remember, the Japanese as a nation eat a lot of fish... 1monster Jun 2012 #39
Every assertion about vaccines has been debunked GarroHorus Jun 2012 #24
Who has an interest in lying? Big Pharma or parents of children who have been harmed? Ghost of Huey Long Jun 2012 #25
Anti-Vaccine people are out to kill everybody. GarroHorus Jun 2012 #31
There are ingredients in vaccines causing autism, denail is a republican tactic Ghost of Huey Long Jun 2012 #34
Full debunked conspiracy theory nonsense GarroHorus Jun 2012 #35
your jury results (from juror #2) Kali Jun 2012 #43
. GarroHorus Jun 2012 #44
I was juror #3. Still trying to sufrommich Jun 2012 #47
hosts are really limited in what they can lock Kali Jun 2012 #61
delusion is another repuke trait Kali Jun 2012 #42
Wrongo obamanut2012 Jun 2012 #58
Jenny McCarthy and Andrew Wakefield and AoA obamanut2012 Jun 2012 #55
I'm sure Big Pharma makes much more on vaccines Ghost of Huey Long Jun 2012 #68
Hey, pal, it's all good! florida evans Jun 2012 #51
Why is "trusty" in scare quotes? obamanut2012 Jun 2012 #60
What precisely is preventing you from becoming infected with/by various diseases? LanternWaste Jun 2012 #66
That will have to be answered SunsetDreams Jun 2012 #67
Probably not the first time, either...nt SidDithers Jun 2012 #72
Herd immunity. Warren Stupidity Jun 2012 #78
As someone who's liver is shot. ForgoTheConsequence Jun 2012 #27
Ah jeez proud2BlibKansan Jun 2012 #30
The Italian Court got it wrong. hedgehog Jun 2012 #40
Giuliano Mignini must have been on vacation obamanut2012 Jun 2012 #56
For those going "Huh?" hedgehog Jun 2012 #59
+1 obamanut2012 Jun 2012 #62
It's amazing how some on the Left proudly claim to be MicaelS Jun 2012 #41
Just because somebody says they are left of center or a liberal doesn't mean they are smart.. snooper2 Jun 2012 #48
Nice graphic, where did you get that? n/t MicaelS Jun 2012 #49
Just did a google image search for ( political circle ) snooper2 Jun 2012 #50
Jenny McCarthy Body Count... SidDithers Jun 2012 #46
Excellent illustration. backscatter712 Jun 2012 #79
I blame the existence of this thread on MTV obamanut2012 Jun 2012 #57
I blame groupthink on a massive brainwashing effort by the corporate media manufacturing consent Ghost of Huey Long Jun 2012 #70
It is true that without vaccines there would be fewer children with autism. 4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #73
why are the rates rising so fast? Have the pro toxic vaccines people been to a public school lately? Ghost of Huey Long Jun 2012 #85
Many parents *think* they've witnessed the beginnings immediately after receiving vaccines. Posteritatis Jun 2012 #86
It wasn't classified as it's own disorder until the 1960s 4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #88
I attended school then, have you been to a school now? Ghost of Huey Long Jun 2012 #91
It's bogus conspiracy theory neo-Luddite bullshit GarroHorus Jun 2012 #92
And unfortunately they aren't going to be the ones who suffer 4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #94
your reaction proves you have no argument Ghost of Huey Long Jun 2012 #122
Your thread proves you are a conspiracy theorist GarroHorus Jun 2012 #123
This is the very definition of an anecdotal argument 4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #93
Rise in Autism proven by statistics. The rebuttle 'they didn't diagnose it' is a joke Ghost of Huey Long Jun 2012 #96
"Rise in Autism proven by statistics" 4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #103
With the millions of kids getting vaccinated every year some will be diagnosed with autism cpwm17 Jun 2012 #99
I'm sure there were people who got vaccinated, stepped outside the doctors office 4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #104
Courts, even in Italy, do not conduct MineralMan Jun 2012 #75
*facepalm* sakabatou Jun 2012 #83
If we demand that the anti-evolutionists use reasoned, scientific thought processes to refute... randome Jun 2012 #89
Do anecdotes count in place of evidence? 4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #90
Actually, anecdotes SHOULD count. If they numbered in the thousands, maybe. randome Jun 2012 #100
Ok but are we taking in to account cup size? 4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #105
I demand a scientific explanation for the rise in Autism- 'didn't diagnose it' is not scientific Ghost of Huey Long Jun 2012 #97
Global warming is on the rise. Obesity is on the rise. The price of grape jelly is on the rise. randome Jun 2012 #101
Don't give them ideas 4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #107
you might be on to something- Study Finds High-Fructose Corn Syrup Contains Mercury Ghost of Huey Long Jun 2012 #124
Groan . . . 4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #125
Can you acknowledge the fact that it was not defined as a disorder 4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #106
What we have to look forward to due to the idiot anti-vaxxers GarroHorus Jun 2012 #95
Ugh. I feel strange saying 'Thanks' for these photos. randome Jun 2012 #102
Don't understand the hostility to making sure vaccines are safe CleanLucre Jun 2012 #108
That's not really the issue 4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #110
The reality is that there are still some things we don't know Ms. Toad Jun 2012 #115
From your articles: 4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #116
You indicated we know how vaccines work. Ms. Toad Jun 2012 #119
This is the same country charging seismologists with manslaughter for not predicting an earthquake NickB79 Jun 2012 #109
Please stop calling the parents idiots! tova Jun 2012 #117
Egg allergies are the single most common food allergy for infants/toddlers. They are not a factor Godhumor Jun 2012 #118
Reaction to shots tova Jun 2012 #120
There are guidelines for who should not get them Godhumor Jun 2012 #121
Jesus mother fucking christ pscot Jun 2012 #127
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