General Discussion

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)

243. No dear, you are comparing

Fri Dec 30, 2011, 01:34 AM

Dec 2011

a PROTEST vote in a caucus with something that will actually matter in the nominating process.

So try to follow this outside of partisan hackery ok. This is meant to TRY TO SEND a message to DC that not everybody is happy with policies currently in place in DC. Mostly they are quite to the right of the mainstream, and people are tired of the corruption.

When it comes to the nomination process I am betting uncommitted will have no role in it, when all is said and done.

But you knew that, or at least you can pretend otherwise. This happens every election, and I do hope that the discontent is wide enough where DC will actually get the message. But affect the ACTUAL nomination process... that is the strawman you are building.

Oh and it is not working.

Nor are people critical of policies are automatically republicans... that is just another lovely strawman.

Don't worry your "friends" in partisan land who face the same in the other major party accuse those who are critical of wanting to elect democrats and being closet libs... which is quite funny actually.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

336 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Cenk is over at Daily Kos calling for a vote against Obama (updated) [View all] ProSense Dec 2011 OP

I agree surfdog Dec 2011 #1

This guy is, though! pleiadian candidate Dec 2011 #131

i wonder who he's planning on voting for? spanone Dec 2011 #2

Who do you plan to vote for? pleiadian candidate Dec 2011 #130

fucking a spanone Dec 2011 #234

You betcha! Phx_Dem Jan 2012 #327

Obama, obviously. Capitalocracy Dec 2011 #147

I knew he was an asscarrot first time I heard him NNN0LHI Dec 2011 #3

.. Richardo Dec 2011 #19

Yup... SidDithers Dec 2011 #164

Thanks for the new term flamingdem Dec 2011 #173

Do all trolls think the Constitution is pocoloco Dec 2011 #275

Just to be sure here who are you calling a troll? NNN0LHI Dec 2011 #276

Cenk is wrong in this part: Enrique Dec 2011 #4

could you imagine what Obama might do, if people weren't telling others to STFU? boston bean Dec 2011 #10

SMH Mr Dixon Dec 2011 #25

no. boston bean Dec 2011 #28

Continue to make the assumption that other democrats agree with your positions. bluestate10 Dec 2011 #210

You mean like the people telling Greenwald critics to shut up all over GD? stevenleser Jan 2012 #324

Drone attacks on innocents!?? Phx_Dem Jan 2012 #328

Sometimes I think they DO want an R to win so they can go on the offensive FarLeftFist Dec 2011 #5

Sorry... ElboRuum Dec 2011 #129

Yeah, we should have never put on those UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2011 #264

Interesting. ElboRuum Jan 2012 #314

Yes, every thinking person should have known UnrepentantLiberal Jan 2012 #317

That's the point. ElboRuum Jan 2012 #321

Yep, I should have known he is a Republican UnrepentantLiberal Jan 2012 #322

Cenk is one of those idiots surfdog Dec 2011 #6

He asked Iowa caucus go'ers to use an Occupy strategy boston bean Dec 2011 #7

Exactly right. Javaman Dec 2011 #9

This message was self-deleted by its author frylock Dec 2011 #127

Too busy writting a reponse UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2011 #265

There are people on "our side" who want to "control the message" every bit as much as Karl Rove... PassingFair Dec 2011 #17

Actually, ProSense Dec 2011 #20

what's dishonest or clowning about that? hfojvt Dec 2011 #39

So ProSense Dec 2011 #89

I agree with him. PassingFair Dec 2011 #50

I know ProSense Dec 2011 #87

no, silly, Hillary is DLC hfojvt Dec 2011 #99

Funny, ProSense Dec 2011 #110

His cabinet was almost completely comprised of DLC bigwigs. PassingFair Dec 2011 #126

I knew exactly who Obama was Sherman A1 Dec 2011 #262

You don't understand at all. PassingFair Dec 2011 #106

No ProSense Dec 2011 #109

The "choice" between "Hillary" and "Obama" was NO choice. PassingFair Dec 2011 #112

Um ProSense Dec 2011 #115

Different names, faces, and gender TheKentuckian Dec 2011 #185

Well I caucused for Edwards, even though he had dropped out hfojvt Dec 2011 #119

Where is the dishonesty there? Did Obama NOT appoint all those Wall Street sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #137

no response to your question.... fascisthunter Jan 2012 #312

You think Cenk is a dishonest clown? A Simple Game Dec 2011 #166

Everything in those three paragraphs is 100% true. Maven Dec 2011 #197

Oh yes indeed... and it is CREEPY! fascisthunter Jan 2012 #311

Do you believe the media will see it as not against Obama? karynnj Dec 2011 #48

I love this post! "...anklebiting Republican Congressmen" YvonneCa Dec 2011 #190

Haven't they been screaming about what they want for three years? treestar Dec 2011 #58

That's my take on this as well fascisthunter Jan 2012 #308

Where exactly does it say that in the article? I just read it. Javaman Dec 2011 #8

Thanks for posting that. Union Scribe Dec 2011 #11

He's ProSense Dec 2011 #13

I think you are lost. Javaman Dec 2011 #41

Do you honestly believe that repeatedly calling someone a "moron" is an effective strategy? girl gone mad Dec 2011 #83

'Messaging'. Is that what politics is all about now? sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #139

Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #199

are you calling someone "Republican" for not supporting the President's "messaging"? CreekDog Jan 2012 #332

The headline reads "Vote Against Obama in Iowa" NNN0LHI Dec 2011 #14

so you only read headlines? Javaman Dec 2011 #44

and who will persuade the boner and mr. turtling Whisp Dec 2011 #114

I think we spend a lot of bile on the repukes. Javaman Dec 2011 #163

Certainly not the Conciliator-in-Chief. Maven Dec 2011 #198

Cenk is calling for a protest vote in Iowa. dawg Dec 2011 #12

Here's ProSense Dec 2011 #16

uncommitted in Iowa won't make Obama not the Dem nominee boston bean Dec 2011 #21

You know ProSense Dec 2011 #24

People would do better to try and understand their opponents on the left. dawg Dec 2011 #29

You're arguing with Prosense. theaocp Dec 2011 #32

Moronic! n/t ProSense Dec 2011 #42

Very clever. theaocp Dec 2011 #47

Yeah, ProSense Dec 2011 #51

Stop shouting at the mirror. U4ikLefty Dec 2011 #205

Cenk? ProSense Dec 2011 #252

Amen to that!!! truebrit71 Dec 2011 #285

I ProSense Dec 2011 #38

He's a pundit, so naturally his words are over the top, but ... dawg Dec 2011 #55

Really? ProSense Dec 2011 #62

Political brinksmanship is a game the President must be prepared to play. dawg Dec 2011 #78

Yeah ProSense Dec 2011 #93

I'm sorry, I must be too much of a red to understand what you just said there. dawg Dec 2011 #100

Well, ProSense Dec 2011 #104

Well, then that's our biggest disagreement. dawg Dec 2011 #108

Well, ProSense Dec 2011 #113

I think if he was desperate for an audience, he would have stayed at MSNBC ... dawg Dec 2011 #121

The left never listens either treestar Dec 2011 #60

I can only speak for myself, and I think I do listen. dawg Dec 2011 #69

What Senate primary was there for Feingold? hfojvt Dec 2011 #52

Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #72

Are you having fun in your fact-free world? ProSense Dec 2011 #76

+1 nt Javaman Dec 2011 #43

I never cared for him... Spazito Dec 2011 #15

Apparently, you know nothing about Cenk. theaocp Dec 2011 #35

Ummm, yeah, I do, I watched him do the rant one day.... Spazito Dec 2011 #65

I'd love to follow this up. theaocp Dec 2011 #68

LOL, thanks but no thanks, Spazito Dec 2011 #75

No worries. theaocp Dec 2011 #79

LOL, calling me dishonest... Spazito Dec 2011 #84

LOL, you're right, I am apparently rubber and you're glue. theaocp Dec 2011 #88

So? It's a primary and he's "working within the system" as the moderates advise us to do. Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2011 #18

Cenk is an Asshat. nt MineralMan Dec 2011 #22

Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #37

I voted "against Obama" in the last primary. Iggo Dec 2011 #23

Hey, don't muddy the water with Facts. bahrbearian Dec 2011 #27

Yeah, ProSense Dec 2011 #31

This appears to be a vote of no confidence. theaocp Dec 2011 #40

"how would it hurt him now?" MilesColtrane Dec 2011 #107

No calling out JustAnotherGen Dec 2011 #26

Or Republicans treestar Dec 2011 #64

this is when the opposition becomes a threat bigtree Dec 2011 #30

Poor Cenk ... "ReformedRepublican" ... now "Born Again Liberal" JoePhilly Dec 2011 #33

The spectrum of what defined a Republican has shifted. theaocp Dec 2011 #45

read #12. Javaman Dec 2011 #46

I read it. JoePhilly Dec 2011 #189

and Democrats used to be to the left fascisthunter Jan 2012 #315

I hope this doesn't get a lot of traction. LiberalAndProud Dec 2011 #34

Well, ProSense Dec 2011 #71

And you posted it here. LiberalAndProud Dec 2011 #118

I like Cenk but think he and others are offbase abelenkpe Dec 2011 #36

Please reread what you wrote. A Simple Game Dec 2011 #184

You're right he would have pushed to keep abelenkpe Dec 2011 #186

Here's the Primary Calendar for 2012 Zorra Dec 2011 #49

Cenk is over at Daily Kos Bobbie Jo Dec 2011 #53

Cenk's a loser. I mean, he's on a network that reaches 10's of homes, nationwide. Tarheel_Dem Dec 2011 #54

As long as we're speculating, theaocp Dec 2011 #56

I'll stop beating them when Cenk gives back his Koch Bros. check. Tarheel_Dem Dec 2011 #66

Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #70

Yours is a "personal attack", which will likely be hidden. Mine was an attack on a public figure. Tarheel_Dem Dec 2011 #85

Alert away. n/t theaocp Dec 2011 #91

Nope, I won't do it because I like folks to see how thin skinned Cenk loyalists are. Tarheel_Dem Dec 2011 #92

Right. theaocp Dec 2011 #94

"usual suspects". "You guys". You just can't stop, can you? Tarheel_Dem Dec 2011 #101

The high standard we place on ourselves... LanternWaste Dec 2011 #143

You mean like the "vulgarity" constantly aimed at the president? Is Cenk off limits? Tarheel_Dem Dec 2011 #149

He's a YouTube success story, though. girl gone mad Dec 2011 #116

! Tarheel_Dem Dec 2011 #117

I take it you don't like YouTube? girl gone mad Dec 2011 #303

So why is anyone worried about him then? sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #145

And you're a hater it seems slay Dec 2011 #183

Help! I'm under attack! Cenk's ENTIRE viewing audience has swooped down upon me! Tarheel_Dem Dec 2011 #230

If this is the way you wish to conduct yourself on this site I have genuine pity for you slay Dec 2011 #232

Your self appointed board monitor status notwithstanding, save your pity for Cenk! Tarheel_Dem Dec 2011 #240

you know what - forget it slay Dec 2011 #244

Well don't go away mad. Tarheel_Dem Dec 2011 #248

Hey. You know you wanted to say Number23 Dec 2011 #299

#23, I was trying to be nice. Now, you went & spoiled it. Tarheel_Dem Dec 2011 #304

That's pretty damn funny, actually Number23 Dec 2011 #235

I had four very angry responses. Count 'em FOUR (4)! I was pretty scared there for a minute. Tarheel_Dem Dec 2011 #242

Way to win fellow DU members over - by mocking them and acting like a jerk slay Dec 2011 #245

I have absolutely no interest in trying to "win you over". Quite honestly, like you said.... Tarheel_Dem Dec 2011 #249

He used to be a Repuke. Are you surprised? MjolnirTime Dec 2011 #57

That's my biggest problem with Cenk, Ed & Arianna. How does one go from hard right... Tarheel_Dem Dec 2011 #67

Oh, lordy, you think people become progressive for the money? Bucky Dec 2011 #153

The present Democratic SoS was a Goldwater Girl TheKentuckian Dec 2011 #193

No surprise from a guy who voted for Bush. JTFrog Dec 2011 #59

At least be honest about which one. theaocp Dec 2011 #63

What difference does it make? JTFrog Dec 2011 #74

Clarification is a good thing. theaocp Dec 2011 #77

Technically, you don't vote in a caucus toddaa Dec 2011 #61

He sarcastically uses the phrase "the big, bad Republicans" as if they're not so bad. Let's see how jenmito Dec 2011 #73

Cenk ProSense Dec 2011 #82

I bet you're right... jenmito Dec 2011 #90

Cenk worked on Sphincter's campaign in Pennsylvania. Major Hogwash Dec 2011 #86

The anti-Obama camp: ProSense Dec 2011 #95

I don't know how he can do these things and still have the full support jenmito Dec 2011 #98

As it turns out, The Young Turks are just The Young Jerks. Major Hogwash Dec 2011 #80

The Professional "Left" - GOP (ex) shills in disguise. CakeGrrl Dec 2011 #81

Actually, I think that is true of you conservative dems fascisthunter Dec 2011 #124

This is Cenk having a little fit because Dem voters have ultimately ignored anti-Obama drama magnets phleshdef Dec 2011 #96

"Dem voters have ultimately ignored anti-Obama drama magnets like himself" Tarheel_Dem Dec 2011 #103

he can call for it all he wants but it won't happen. Obama is going to win the caucus book_worm Dec 2011 #97

Cenk never met a hyperbole he didn't like. MilesColtrane Dec 2011 #102

Most of these ex-Republicans have the same problem with ideology frazzled Dec 2011 #105

another Clown Car filling up Whisp Dec 2011 #111

just as Rimjob thinks Romney is a liberal Motown_Johnny Dec 2011 #120

maybe if you all keep posting stupid accusations, new readers will believe you fascisthunter Dec 2011 #123

Why is it any different? Motown_Johnny Dec 2011 #134

Yes, it is treestar Dec 2011 #141

Vee Must Cleanse Zee left oaf all critics oaf Obama fascisthunter Dec 2011 #122

Hahahahaha!!!! Major Hogwash Dec 2011 #128

how old are you conservos, 12? fascisthunter Dec 2011 #160

I'm a 56-year old liberal. Major Hogwash Dec 2011 #176

Vee ProSense Dec 2011 #133

Kick to make a point. MineralMan Dec 2011 #125

Cenk = Moran flamingdem Dec 2011 #132

Cenk = standing up for real progressive positions. Obama, not so much. DesMoinesDem Dec 2011 #135

Well, ProSense Dec 2011 #136

No I didn't support them, DesMoinesDem Dec 2011 #138

Here's ProSense Dec 2011 #140

"Good luck, you republican hack" Tarheel_Dem Dec 2011 #151

Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #154

This poster gets special treatment around here fascisthunter Dec 2011 #161

Yeah, ProSense Dec 2011 #175

Watchout Prosense. Some here want a Michael Corleone kiss for you. :-))) nt. bluestate10 Dec 2011 #203

speshu-lllll fascisthunter Jan 2012 #307

Which ProSense Dec 2011 #174

Cenk = 'Former' Republican = Fifth Columnist Ikonoklast Dec 2011 #150

Someday you should learn to look past the person DesMoinesDem Dec 2011 #155

Someday you'll realize a really effective political strategy is to Ikonoklast Dec 2011 #157

+1!!! CherylK Dec 2011 #156

Indeed slay Dec 2011 #182

I guess it's easier and much more convenient LanternWaste Dec 2011 #142

Why ProSense Dec 2011 #144

His editorial seems much better thought out LanternWaste Dec 2011 #146

Yeah, ProSense Dec 2011 #148

Almost as much brain power as went into... LanternWaste Dec 2011 #152

So ProSense Dec 2011 #158

He's a great example of the dynamics of minor league professional leftism. gulliver Dec 2011 #159

oh please don't lump Greenwald in with Cenk tishaLA Dec 2011 #267

I think of Greenwald as a slightly more talented Cenk gulliver Dec 2011 #295

Who cares? Rex Dec 2011 #162

David Allen sucking up to said "moron". yodermon Dec 2011 #165

I ProSense Dec 2011 #167

I agree with Cenk ... Fantastic Anarchist Dec 2011 #168

I'm ProSense Dec 2011 #170

How fantastic that you're glad. Fantastic Anarchist Dec 2011 #256

but limpyhobbler Dec 2011 #301

"155 troll ratings" girl gone mad Jan 2012 #320

How did we get to know this guy's name again? DeathToTheOil Dec 2011 #169

For years he has given commentaries Hissyspit Dec 2011 #222

Cenk is being dishonest as well as trying to stir up some controversy in hopes of getting some Pisces Dec 2011 #171

The President whose first action was to IMMEDIATELY end the Global Gag rule BlancheSplanchnik Dec 2011 #172

I get that know is the time that all good men get behind their leader and all that, tavalon Dec 2011 #177

Well, ProSense Dec 2011 #178

I fucking hate the IPads helpful word changes tavalon Dec 2011 #180

I agree with Cenk slay Dec 2011 #179

Well, ProSense Dec 2011 #181

Primary Obama!! Roland99 Dec 2011 #187

Asshat, Asscarrot, Asssweetpotato ... lillypaddle Dec 2011 #188

The President reaps what he has sown. nt woo me with science Dec 2011 #191

LOL, looks like Cenk is #1 Spazito Dec 2011 #192

. ProSense Dec 2011 #194

He's #1 in my book slay Dec 2011 #201

You should post that at KOS.... Spazito Dec 2011 #202

I don't post at KOS - but I could post it at LeftUnderground slay Dec 2011 #207

Hey, go for it, post it there! Spazito Dec 2011 #211

No need - someone already did slay Dec 2011 #214

Well, each to their own, it is good we can all meet on a site that... Spazito Dec 2011 #217

Well, I'm against electing Republicans for sure slay Dec 2011 #218

There you go! More commonalities than differences when we take time to .... Spazito Dec 2011 #219

If that was why he wrote it, he just got what he wanted. sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #204

Cenk and The Young Turks was new tonight - he addresses the BS "Obama is liberal" poll - Matt Taibbi slay Dec 2011 #208

Oh, thanks. I could have missed Matt Taibbi, another of my favorites, had it not been for this OP. sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #213

No prob - it was a great show - I even called my parents and told them to watch slay Dec 2011 #216

I hope you enjoy his evening rant... Spazito Dec 2011 #209

I always enjoy Cenk and all the other progressive hosts on TV. There are so few of them. sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #212

Yes, I like progressive TV very much which is why I don't watch Cenk... Spazito Dec 2011 #215

Definitely agree. Cenk is very progressive also. I really do not think it is progressive at all to sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #220

Well, your interpretation of what Cenk was 'suggesting' and mine seem to differ... Spazito Dec 2011 #221

That might be a bit bigger than just the Thursday Worst Diary Number23 Dec 2011 #237

LOL! I wonder if they have a "Greatest Hits of 2011 -best and worst"... Spazito Dec 2011 #287

Isn't Dailykos the place that trashed Kucinich and penguin7 Dec 2011 #195

I Tend To Agree With Cenk... WillyT Dec 2011 #196

I have no respect for Cenk. bluestate10 Dec 2011 #200

Cenk is an idiot LoisB Dec 2011 #206

TYT Army Is STRONG WillyT Dec 2011 #223

smelling. Major Hogwash Dec 2011 #226

Damn... You're Still In The 5th Grade, Eh ??? WillyT Dec 2011 #229

Damn . . . I'm 10 times smarter than you. Major Hogwash Dec 2011 #277

hahaha... I asked about his age too fascisthunter Jan 2012 #310

Yes, these Cenk attack posts NorthCarolina Dec 2011 #269

If the left do as Cenk suggests BklnDem75 Jan 2012 #336

Cenk still showing his Republican tendencies! TheDirectPath Dec 2011 #224

Cenk makes good points. JDPriestly Dec 2011 #225

Of course you understand that voting uncommitted in the CAUCUS nadinbrzezinski Dec 2011 #227

No ProSense Dec 2011 #233

No dear, you are comparing nadinbrzezinski Dec 2011 #243

Um, ProSense Dec 2011 #247

Actually dear, let's get this out of your chest nadinbrzezinski Dec 2011 #250

Actually ProSense Dec 2011 #251

Not a terrible idea because it helps frame Obama as a moderate maximusveritas Dec 2011 #228

And, it frames the current right-wing as extreme -- since they are extremists. Festivito Dec 2011 #236

reminds me of that south park episode... got root Dec 2011 #231

It's a fact! Agony Dec 2011 #238

In the middle on this thesquanderer Dec 2011 #239

He called for Iowa Democrats to vote "uncommitted" Now isn't that right? Better Believe It Dec 2011 #241

Stupid Fucking Jackass JI7 Dec 2011 #246

If my voting because I'm scared of the Big Bad Republicans is "fundamentally dishonest" - gateley Dec 2011 #253

I agree with Cenk. Progressives have a right to be disappointed and I'm sick of picking the least garybeck Dec 2011 #254

voting for uncommitted in the caucuses is the most rational alternative for progressives Douglas Carpenter Dec 2011 #255

He's supposedly a "former" Rethug JNelson6563 Dec 2011 #257

You really might want to examine highprincipleswork Dec 2011 #258

Oh good lord !!! Tx4obama Dec 2011 #259

ok, yeah, and the law, and the concerns of ordinary folks highprincipleswork Jan 2012 #329

I like her, but like I said she needs to speak up about where she stands on issues Tx4obama Jan 2012 #330

What's the harm? JVS Dec 2011 #260

I like Cenk but he's overly fixated on the president sometimes. limpyhobbler Dec 2011 #261

Where did this phuk-head... Vestigial_Sister Dec 2011 #263

He's still upset by MSNBC letting him go Sienna86 Dec 2011 #266

This OP proves to me that conservatives fear Cenk, glad to see it! nt NorthCarolina Dec 2011 #268

Cenk is not a favorite of conservative moderate centrists blue dog Democrats Better Believe It Dec 2011 #271

Tell ProSense Dec 2011 #273

You know ProSense Dec 2011 #272

I would hate for you to actually read the article but... deacon_sephiroth Dec 2011 #270

Maybe ProSense Dec 2011 #274

Why repeat it over here? WI_DEM Dec 2011 #278

He didn't repeal DADT, Congress did dsc Dec 2011 #279

Well, ProSense Dec 2011 #281

No you don't get to have it both ways dsc Dec 2011 #291

So ProSense Dec 2011 #292

I stand with Cenk...Obama has been a disaster on many, many issues... truebrit71 Dec 2011 #280

Do ProSense Dec 2011 #282

The Environment, Civil Liberties, Health Care, The War(s), Taxes, MMJ, NDAA, LIHEAP... truebrit71 Dec 2011 #283

Hmmm? ProSense Dec 2011 #284

That highlighted paragraph is a joke... truebrit71 Dec 2011 #286

Well ProSense Dec 2011 #288

Oh trust me, your posts always make me laugh... truebrit71 Dec 2011 #289

Just ProSense Dec 2011 #290

..."nothing to back up my claims"....except reality and the google on the interwebs... truebrit71 Dec 2011 #296

You know... Betty Karlson Dec 2011 #293

Well, ProSense Dec 2011 #294

..And... truebrit71 Dec 2011 #297

Your subject line is totally misleading. Matariki Dec 2011 #298

Where ProSense Dec 2011 #300

Cenk is a rethug 1stlady Dec 2011 #302

Cenk interviews Democratic Underground Co-Founder David Allen Douglas Carpenter Dec 2011 #305

I like Cenk. I don't always agree with him PA Democrat Dec 2011 #306

Your campaign to smear all critics with dishonesty is alarming fascisthunter Jan 2012 #309

It's ProSense Jan 2012 #316

Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #318

Wait ProSense Jan 2012 #319

look fascisthunter Jan 2012 #326

If I get the chance to register a primary protest vote, I will. mmonk Jan 2012 #313

Boy, talk about your flame bate, knee jerk reactor thread machines! MrMickeysMom Jan 2012 #323

With elected officials like Cenk and Greenwald, what hope do we have!? Bonobo Jan 2012 #325

I'm convinced 1stlady Jan 2012 #331

NDAA, the mandate, DOMA still on the books, GITMO and other sites still open, Bradley Manning Erose999 Jan 2012 #333

Depends on your view. mmonk Jan 2012 #334

Notice it's always the 'former conservatives' BklnDem75 Jan 2012 #335