General Discussion

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)

59. So many fallacies in such a short post

Fri Dec 30, 2011, 06:38 PM

Dec 2011

The US has decisively lost every major trade war we have ever fought. Most recently W's steel nonsense steel tariffs of 2002-2003.

In direct retaliation to the Smoot Hawley tariffs The UK imposed a 100% tariff on US exports. Spain imposed a 150% tariff on US automobiles. The French and Swiss shut-out US goods entirely and Canada scorched earth on agriculture. Other nations retaliated in other ways but in whole the rest of the world ceased trading with the United States.

The problem with launching mercantilist trade wars in the modern age is there aren't very many goods that you can only get in one place, the rules of the fur trade and silk trade don't really apply anymore. If one country imposes preposterous trade barriers the rest of the world will just take their business elsewhere.

And the US does have tariffs on a great many imports from those nations we do not have free trade agreements with or are otherwise tariff free by way of the WTO. The purpose of these tariffs is not however to be massively punitive.

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Offshoring: Should America be impoverished in order to help other populations become better off? [View all] Zalatix Dec 2011 OP

We can't impose our will or our lifestyle on the rest of the world either. Kurmudgeon Dec 2011 #1

I've no desire to impose anything on any country. Zalatix Dec 2011 #3

Thats just BS to appease the masses FreakinDJ Dec 2011 #2

Comments like that are likely to ENRAGE the masses, drive them to action. Zalatix Dec 2011 #4

Truth Hurts FreakinDJ Dec 2011 #5

No, I don't mean comments like yours, I mean comments like the one I am referring to Zalatix Dec 2011 #7

Surprise ! - Not all posters on DU are Americans FreakinDJ Dec 2011 #8

Hmmmm, really now? Perhaps therein lies the problem Zalatix Dec 2011 #9

We have Canadians here telling us America needs Free Trade FreakinDJ Dec 2011 #11

Yes I've met the type Zalatix Dec 2011 #13

Can you point me towards one of those posts? polly7 Dec 2011 #20

That would be against DU rules against "Singleing out a Poster" FreakinDJ Dec 2011 #25

ah, I see how that works. ;) polly7 Dec 2011 #40

We do it because the corporations that determine US policy mmonk Dec 2011 #6

That's really the only reason. Quantess Dec 2011 #42

I've been thinking about the opposite side of this question Tsiyu Dec 2011 #10

Indeed Zalatix Dec 2011 #12

Actually, it can work fine when they aren't poor. dawg Dec 2011 #15

Comparative Advantage doesn't work. Zalatix Dec 2011 #21

But you're comparing apples to oranges. dawg Dec 2011 #26

Poor or not, if you control manufacturing, you eventually control R&D. Zalatix Dec 2011 #28

Yes, for the product you manufacture. dawg Dec 2011 #34

Well, we are far more productive, this much is true. Zalatix Dec 2011 #35

The productivity and efficiency of the American worker ... dawg Dec 2011 #36

There are tariffs. Zalatix Dec 2011 #37

traditionally tariffs were for raising revenue for the federal government Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2011 #49

I'm generally opposed to tariffs, but ... dawg Dec 2011 #56

The problem is there are two parallel yet unharmonized trade agendas Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2011 #60

That is enlightening. dawg Jan 2012 #98

Smoot Hawley did nothing of the sort. Plus, embargoes on US exports are useless now. Zalatix Dec 2011 #57

So many fallacies in such a short post Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2011 #59

You're still pushing more fairy tales. Here are the documented facts. Zalatix Dec 2011 #61

I don't think there is any economic issue LESS in dispute Smoot-Hawley Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2011 #66

You seem to want to defend Americans losing jobs. We don't have anything to lose by losing exports. Zalatix Dec 2011 #67

If you want to advocate fighting a 17th Century trade war, go for it. Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2011 #70

The US heavy industry won't collapse if we hire Americans to build for the American market. Zalatix Dec 2011 #71

I'm not opposed to tariffs, I am opposed to punitive tariffs. Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2011 #76

More facts debunking the Smoot Hawley myth Zalatix Dec 2011 #68

Naturally imports dropped, that is what punitive tariffs do Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2011 #73

Imports dropped far more than exports. Zalatix Dec 2011 #74

So it was all the depression huh? The massive retaliatory trade barriers were just a coincidence? Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2011 #82

Trade deficits devalue the dollar naturally. Zalatix Dec 2011 #85

Oh and let me add... to hell with the WTO. Zalatix Dec 2011 #89

So if I follow you... Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2011 #90

Why do you keep spouting these uninformed opinions? You have no documentation to back them up. Zalatix Dec 2011 #93

Looking at the calendar... today is Sunday December 31st 2011 Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2011 #94

US = Low productivity? Just another of the major errors in your argument Zalatix Dec 2011 #95

High US labor productivity is a modern phenomenon Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2011 #96

High US labor productivity is NOT merely a modern phenomenon - where do you get these fantasies from Zalatix Dec 2011 #97

"we must fight against the race-to-the-bottom free traders who would have our workers... LooseWilly Dec 2011 #53

I mostly mean the policy makers. dawg Dec 2011 #55

Indeed. The US trades more with the EU than with China despite China having 3 times the population. pampango Dec 2011 #91

What will China and Europe do when America becomes too poor to buy their stuff? Zalatix Jan 2012 #101

Once every American family has a decent standard of living, we can consider this. dawg Dec 2011 #14

Offshoring is a way corporations make sure everyone is in poverty lunatica Dec 2011 #16

All the interconnectivity that's occurred during the past 50 years... randome Dec 2011 #17

"resulted in better standards of living" -- not here in the US, though. DECLINING wages, standards Romulox Dec 2011 #19

America has problems. No disputing that. randome Dec 2011 #23

That's an after-the-fact justification whipped up by the plutocrats; the EXPLOITATION came first, Romulox Dec 2011 #27

Hard to afford smart phones on ZERO DOLLARS an hour. Zalatix Dec 2011 #31

Less war, more revolutions. Zalatix Dec 2011 #22

Most of the revolutions today come from a desire for democracy. randome Dec 2011 #24

And what do you call those riots in Democratic Europe? Zalatix Dec 2011 #29

I'd call them not on the same scale as the Arab Spring and other riots. randome Dec 2011 #32

It hasn't gotten to that point yet but when it pops... Zalatix Dec 2011 #33

Those standards of living will go down drastically with the rapid overuse of resources. antigone382 Dec 2011 #43

Offshoring currently moves manufacturing toward pollution-heavy countries. Zalatix Dec 2011 #45

"Free trade" with Korea was the latest neolib betrayal. nt Romulox Dec 2011 #18

Good question. Thoughts... PETRUS Dec 2011 #30

Resembles the questions over whether or not there should be progressive taxation, social wiggs Dec 2011 #38

Your case is nowhere near as strong as you imagine muriel_volestrangler Dec 2011 #39

And you are saying "America needs to become poorer" - your case is not strong at all. Zalatix Dec 2011 #41

Off-shoring doesn't really help the poor in other third world countries - it helps the corporations. haele Dec 2011 #44

Post-War prosperity was built on having bombed nearly every other industrialized nation to dust. Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2011 #46

Britain was not 'bombed to rubble' RZM Dec 2011 #47

In 1940-1941 England was flattened! Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2011 #51

No it wasn't RZM Dec 2011 #52

The Luftwaffe wanted to destroy the RAF et-al and aircraft factories Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2011 #54

The Luftwaffle wanted to, but they failed. Zalatix Dec 2011 #58

as long as US prosperity is not built on killing & ripping off other countries & nations; marasinghe Dec 2011 #48

Nope juajen Dec 2011 #50

Good question Proud Liberal Dem Dec 2011 #62

And cheap foreign labor is not cheap. Zalatix Dec 2011 #64

Right Proud Liberal Dem Dec 2011 #65

How "cheap" is it really? high density Dec 2011 #79

Outrageously false dichotomy. NAFTA, for example, screwed both sides of the border. JackRiddler Dec 2011 #63

This message was self-deleted by its author polly7 Dec 2011 #81

And to think, America would be even worse than that without welfare. Zalatix Dec 2011 #86

Better Lives for Mexicans Cut Allure of Going North pampango Dec 2011 #92

Will the Mexicans let us go there for jobs? Zalatix Jan 2012 #100

Offshoring Mission Accomplished Octafish Dec 2011 #69

It's just another way to transfer more weath upward high density Dec 2011 #72

Maybe we can force them to pack up and leave, totally Zalatix Dec 2011 #75

There needs to be a collective change in the way companies think high density Dec 2011 #80

"a family that cares about its own" grantcart Dec 2011 #77

Where's my Global Citizenship ID card? Can I move to China for a job with this ID card? Zalatix Dec 2011 #78

Apparently you cannot. grantcart Dec 2011 #87

Find someone else to sell your One World Government ideas to. I'm flippant and proud of it. Zalatix Dec 2011 #88

I see you didn't have an answer to the offshore pollution problem, eh? Zalatix Jan 2012 #102

What? unlawflcombatnt Jan 2012 #103

Let's talk about the real issue - globalists becoming vastly rich TBF Dec 2011 #83

should Americans take a good hard look at their options and their impacts on the global economy? getdown Dec 2011 #84

Had the corporations and government agencies had good intentions when they went into these jwirr Jan 2012 #99