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In reply to the discussion: We need a new system [View all]

MineralMan

(151,155 posts)
32. Yes, they did. That was another Revolution by
Mon Jul 9, 2012, 12:31 PM
Jul 2012

followers of Marx and Lenin. Revolutions often end up causing great suffering for the people living in the countries where they happen. They also often end in establishing governments that simply substitute one ugly system for another.

As far as I'm aware, no anarchist government of a large country has ever succeeded. Getting from our current system to one you have not even defined is not something that's going to happen in your lifetime, probably. Certainly not in mine. In the meantime, there are 350 million people here who are trying to live their lives. A very small number of those people is in favor of what you're discussing, so initiating such a change is going to be extremely unpopular with those people, who have day-to-day concerns that are more important to them than the fine points of social theory.

The problem your plan faces is one that may well be unsurmountable, given the social and psychological makeup of the vast majority in this country, who, for better or worse, believe that our constitutional republic can solve the problems. There is a minority that is unemployed, underemployed, or otherwise in dire straits in the US. It is not a large minority, percentage-wise. It is not a powerful minority.

The Occupy movement, which you think I disagree with (I don't), is on the right track, but is not attracting the numbers that it needs to have a major impact on politics at this time. Will that movement grow? It might, but I'm not convinced of that. Sadly, there have been actions by Black Bloc people that most identify with the Occupy movement that piss off some of the very people who need to be in support if anything is to come of the movement. There has also been some very nasty behavior by law enforcement against the movement, but that hasn't seemed to have caused the number at Occupy actions to rise, either.

The vandalism you're suggesting might be necessary will also not swell the ranks of the Occupy movement. Rather, it will probably diminish those ranks.

Unfortunately, I think your proposal for change is too broad and undefined to capture the minds of many. And many will be needed to make changes. Keep thinking and trying to come up with concrete steps that can actually be achieved. Steps like disarming the police aren't going to happen, since people still need the police to show up when things happen. Dissolving the corporations is a good goal, but there's really no mechanism available to do that, and not enough support for it to make the changes needed to provide that mechanism.

You're thinking big. That's OK, but change doesn't happen that way, I'm afraid. There's no real support for violent revolution in this country. So, some other methods will be needed to produce change. There no real support for serious forms of vandalism, either. In fact serious vandalism will earn the enmity of vast numbers of people, rather than pointing out problems.

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We need a new system [View all] Taverner Jul 2012 OP
But what do we replace it with? LARED Jul 2012 #1
The methodology should be the Scientific Method Taverner Jul 2012 #2
I think there is some science in my idea LARED Jul 2012 #7
What system do you recommend, Taverner? MineralMan Jul 2012 #3
Like I said, take the best elements from 20th century political theory Taverner Jul 2012 #5
Ah, hodgepodgism. MineralMan Jul 2012 #9
Want exact solutions? Here: Taverner Jul 2012 #16
Sounds like way too many 'ism's to HappyMe Jul 2012 #10
Well, heck, then. Let's just have anarchy. MineralMan Jul 2012 #12
Anarchism =/= Libertarianism Taverner Jul 2012 #19
And how did Makhno's anarchist Ukraine work out? MineralMan Jul 2012 #20
Well the Red Army destroyed it Taverner Jul 2012 #25
Yes, they did. That was another Revolution by MineralMan Jul 2012 #32
Anarchism actually eschews large governments Taverner Jul 2012 #34
I can't imagine any consensus from that coalition you suggest. MineralMan Jul 2012 #39
You would think a Parliamentary system could never find a consensus then.... Taverner Jul 2012 #42
Well, I haven't seen any parliamentary systems controlled by MineralMan Jul 2012 #44
Singapore built a state utilizing multiple theories Taverner Jul 2012 #17
Singapore? Have you checked their civil rights history? MineralMan Jul 2012 #21
But, but, but the roads are good! HappyMe Jul 2012 #27
Well, there is that. MineralMan Jul 2012 #28
That wasn't my point - I never said it was optimal Taverner Jul 2012 #36
I think it should be a system for we, the people.... kentuck Jul 2012 #4
We, the people includes MineralMan Jul 2012 #11
It would still have to be decided in a democratic way... kentuck Jul 2012 #13
Ah. Well, then, there's the rub. MineralMan Jul 2012 #14
Well, if you don't like my system, then vote for the status quo.... kentuck Jul 2012 #15
Interesting subthread PETRUS Jul 2012 #41
They lack class consciousness Taverner Jul 2012 #18
OK. Education. That's always a good idea. MineralMan Jul 2012 #23
Culturejamming, Killcap, Education, Occupy Taverner Jul 2012 #24
So, post a link to adbusters.org here. MineralMan Jul 2012 #33
It's not "the system" that's broken; it's our values. "The system" is ruthlessly efficient Romulox Jul 2012 #6
I think you are right, but I would LARED Jul 2012 #8
Duthchas MichaelMcGuire Jul 2012 #22
Its not the system thats the problem Drale Jul 2012 #26
Demarchy gets rid of the politicians and money. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2012 #29
It works when it comes to juries Taverner Jul 2012 #30
Think if a Noam Chomsky or Joan Baez gets chosen. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2012 #31
This is true, but are there more Chomskys or Metzgers in the world today? Taverner Jul 2012 #35
Beats me. But, I do know that they're are a lot politicians on the take. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2012 #37
Yes, true Taverner Jul 2012 #38
I say we link the tax code for the top 1% to the unemployment rate. Ganja Ninja Jul 2012 #40
That I can get down with Taverner Jul 2012 #43
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