General Discussion

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)

476. Just so you know, I actually agree with your critique of the Greens on organizational matters

Tue Jul 10, 2012, 05:04 AM

Jul 2012

and think it was a mistake for them to ever nominate presidential candidates-they should have built more at the state and local level.

Wellstone and Kennedy NEVER won on anything in the Nineties, btw. They should have, but the always lost to the DLC. If they'd won on something, we'd have heard about it. The whole Dem agenda that decade was dictated from Little Rock. The poor, the workers, the powerless, the elderly, those who wanted peace...NONE of them mattered in the DLC era.

And we never needed to be that far to the right to win in '92 anyway. Clinton only took 43%. ANY Dem could have matched that. Even Harkin could have won if the party had got behind him. But we were essentially forced by our party leaders to check our dreams at the door in '92. And we got nothing at all for it.

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Ralph Nader: 'Cowering' Democrats face defeat [View all] cali Jul 2012 OP

Fuck Ralph Nader. HappyMe Jul 2012 #1

Jeez--great minds, look below!! MADem Jul 2012 #3

Yeah. Except he's right. russspeakeasy Jul 2012 #4

You left out a few words. TheWraith Jul 2012 #11

"the democrats should be landsliding the worst republican party russspeakeasy Jul 2012 #25

Because the Repigs Control the Tee Vee AndyTiedye Jul 2012 #204

you nailed it. It is the TV. Any Democrat that says anything rainy Jul 2012 #253

really? ret5hd Jul 2012 #529

republicans control tv? since when? capitalists control tv. HiPointDem Jul 2012 #558

"Landsliding", Indeed Iggy Jul 2012 #377

+1,000,000! The guy is a vote-suppressing, self-aggrandizing, noxious scold. MADem Jul 2012 #58

I'm sure he's done more for the American people than you have. n/t mattclearing Jul 2012 #172

Why isn't he helping now? Instead of just shooting his mouth off? He could be financially pnwmom Jul 2012 #201

+1,000,000! nt MADem Jul 2012 #206

If you really want to know what Nader is up to, mattclearing Jul 2012 #229

He doesn't ever support Dems; he criticizes them. And who does this benefit? The Rethugs. pnwmom Jul 2012 #232

He's even harder on Republicans than he is on Dems. mattclearing Jul 2012 #244

No one loves Wall Street more than Ralph--he has a very UNPROGRESSIVE stock portfolio. MADem Jul 2012 #237

Load of excrement? mattclearing Jul 2012 #243

Yes, a great big load of stinking, steaming excrement. MADem Jul 2012 #278

Condemning Nader for something Kerry did as well isn't particularly fair. mattclearing Jul 2012 #322

I am condemning Nader for herding idealists away from the Democratic ticket, to benefit his stock MADem Jul 2012 #323

You don't know me. mattclearing Jul 2012 #331

When a candidate has to fight a battle on TWO fronts, they have a harder time making gains. MADem Jul 2012 #333

"Took votes" mattclearing Jul 2012 #339

OK, fine, own this. MADem Jul 2012 #342

You could say the same things of most of the Dems in congress. mattclearing Jul 2012 #354

If you really want to do that, then start your own thread on the topic and have at it. MADem Jul 2012 #359

My only point here is that you don't subject anyone else to the same scrutiny/standards. n/t mattclearing Jul 2012 #369

If you want to talk about someone else, fire up a thread about them and let's have at it. MADem Jul 2012 #395

Nader didn't "take votes" from Gore Chisox08 Jul 2012 #423

Ah yes, "you knew some," so therefore your experience is controlling across the depth and breadth of MADem Jul 2012 #428

I never said that it applied to every Nader voter just the ones I knew Chisox08 Jul 2012 #436

So, it's anecdotal. It doesn't hold sway, then. nt MADem Jul 2012 #440

Saying every Nader voter would have voted for Gore just doesn't make sense Chisox08 Jul 2012 #466

No one has made that claim. nt MADem Jul 2012 #479

Why can't you admit that the Democratic ticket helped cause those idealists to go away Ken Burch Jul 2012 #465

No one is making anyone stay. If you don't like the party--leave. See if you can get a better MADem Jul 2012 #473

There was nothing for progressives in the Gore program in 2000 Ken Burch Jul 2012 #474

You keep replying twice to my posts. It's a bit annoying. MADem Jul 2012 #478

All "Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good" ever meant was Ken Burch Jul 2012 #481

Maybe that means that to you. Don't try to tell me what it means to me. MADem Jul 2012 #482

You assume that nobody tried working from within Ken Burch Jul 2012 #475

Name them. Everyone I've talked to -- and I mean face-to-face--talks a great game of complaints, MADem Jul 2012 #477

How many people have you talked to? Ken Burch Jul 2012 #480

Oh please. MADem Jul 2012 #484

Ralph wouldn't have won ANY votes in 2000 Ken Burch Jul 2012 #468

You keep replying more than once to a single post. Please stop doing that. nt MADem Jul 2012 #485

Sometimes it's necessary, when more than one point in your posts needs to be responded to. Ken Burch Jul 2012 #506

It's bothersome--better to edit your post instead of adding on. MADem Jul 2012 #509

I'll take your comment here under consideration. Ken Burch Jul 2012 #512

This isn't about Ralph's personal character. It's about the point he's making here Ken Burch Jul 2012 #467

Sorry, it IS about his personal character, because when you understand his personal character, you MADem Jul 2012 #472

Yup, grabbing their ankles whilst accepting the hot beef injection of Wall Street this is unreal. Jul 2012 #299

YES. Chorophyll Jul 2012 #385

You could say the same about Larry Flynt Major Nikon Jul 2012 #241

I adore larry Flynt. FarPoint Jul 2012 #259

Agreed. n/t mattclearing Jul 2012 #336

We're past 2000 now, for God's sake. Ken Burch Jul 2012 #456

Why doesn't Nader try to help the Dems beat the extremists? pnwmom Jul 2012 #200

Because he needs the spotlight and nobody will give it to him. russspeakeasy Jul 2012 #378

We shouldn't reduce ourselves to just "beating the extremists" Ken Burch Jul 2012 #492

Only in a narrow sense. And he has done precious little to support the case against the yellowcanine Jul 2012 #417

Can we recognize his statement as correct? Zalatix Jul 2012 #165

No, we can't. We can recognize it as quite possibly ghost written by Karl Rove. MADem Jul 2012 #283

I for one would label the Blue Dogs as cowards. Or traitors. Zalatix Jul 2012 #338

They never talked like Nader and invested like Bush, though. Nadar did exactly that. nt MADem Jul 2012 #344

Right, they talk *and* invest like Bush. Marr Jul 2012 #358

So, you're saying "Bullshit the stooges with progressive talk/invest like a Republican" is better? MADem Jul 2012 #362

Will you stop calling everyone a Nader supporter, for Christ's sake? Marr Jul 2012 #400

Ralph Nader is not a politician. He's a tool of the GOP. Politicians win the occasional contest. MADem Jul 2012 #402

Ditto, HappyMe. Fuck Ralph Nader. catbyte Jul 2012 #426

It doesn't matter that's Ralph...what matters is that it's right. Ken Burch Jul 2012 #455

They're bound and determined to avoid learning this lesson, it doesn't fit their internal Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #463

Truth hurts Eddie Haskell Jul 2012 #501

This message was self-deleted by its author bupkus Jul 2012 #526

Fuck Ralph Nader... MADem Jul 2012 #2

Oh that's right. zeemike Jul 2012 #49

To be fair to Pat Buchanan, he was the first person to sound the alarm and say that he KNEW that MADem Jul 2012 #54

Well your feelings are your own and you can blame him till you die. zeemike Jul 2012 #63

+1 nt freedom fighter jh Jul 2012 #77

Weak arguments need scapegoats to blame their failures on. 99Forever Jul 2012 #92

Not about his "right." He has every "right." It's all about his shitty, selfish JUDGMENT. nt MADem Jul 2012 #207

I don't argue with people that resort to... 99Forever Jul 2012 #246

You are dismissed? What MTV video or teen movie did you get that from? MADem Jul 2012 #273

LOL zappaman Jul 2012 #275

Ha ha ha! MADem Jul 2012 #279

I love watching old movies and recognizing future faces. zappaman Jul 2012 #284

My GAWD!!! That first film has an A List cast! MADem Jul 2012 #288

I love the DEVIL'S RAIN! zappaman Jul 2012 #292

I was in the Middle East and I'd never heard of it before today--it didn't make it over that way ... MADem Jul 2012 #295

And it's VERY satanic. zappaman Jul 2012 #296

The Mike Douglas Show!!!! MADem Jul 2012 #301

Well, we were just discussing Ernest Borgnine and now he is dead. zappaman Jul 2012 #352

Ha ha ha! Followed by a sob and some fond memories... MADem Jul 2012 #360

I will. For want of FL a Presidency was lost. nt MADem Jul 2012 #199

The Gore Apologists are Hilarious Iggy Jul 2012 #256

Yeah, what did happen, "Blogger?" MADem Jul 2012 #280

You've Got to Be Kidding Iggy Jul 2012 #375

Nader is a tool. MADem Jul 2012 #384

Gore won the election. So what exactly are you sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #107

I am blaming Nader for not putting the group before himself. MADem Jul 2012 #203

It Was Worse Than That, Nader Was Running a Spoiler Campaign ON PURPOSE AndyTiedye Jul 2012 #209

Gore pretty much spoiled it himself zappaman Jul 2012 #213

Didn't he take GOP money, as well? And wasn't there a GOP campaign to funnel money to him to keep MADem Jul 2012 #218

Why the focus on Nader, that is my question? We KNOW all the dirty tricks that sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #214

All true zappaman Jul 2012 #215

I did not know who Lieberman was back then. If I knew then what I know now sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #216

Lieberman was a principled moderate back then, with a gentler world-view. MADem Jul 2012 #220

Katherine Harris wasn't a self-proclaimed lefty. Nor was Rove. MADem Jul 2012 #217

Neither were the 300,000 Democrats who voted for Bush. sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #219

It's not my job to tell a VOTER what to do. There are plenty of "Reagan Democrats" who have been MADem Jul 2012 #224

It wasn't Gore's job to win those votes MannyGoldstein Jul 2012 #268

Ralph Nader took money from Republicans so that Republicans could defeat Democrats. MADem Jul 2012 #282

Clinton, Gore and Obama all took vast sums from bankers MannyGoldstein Jul 2012 #388

Nadar was a big problem--he gave us President Bush, and I don't think we should EVER stop blaming MADem Jul 2012 #391

Lol, yes, of course. We must protect the third way at all costs. sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #289

so much vitriol for nader, so little effort put into fighting bush's election theft. HiPointDem Jul 2012 #559

Thanks Sabrina 7wo7rees Jul 2012 #222

Your second image is a laugh riot....since Nader made his millions off of union-busting CISCO. nt MADem Jul 2012 #225

Yep a riot 7wo7rees Jul 2012 #231

And Raytheon...and McDonald's. Yeah, Ralph is a real "champion of the people." A con artist. nt MADem Jul 2012 #233

Theresa LePore was a Democrat PDittie Jul 2012 #153

That's a half truth. LaPore was a registered Republican BlueCaliDem Jul 2012 #171

+1,000 nt MADem Jul 2012 #208

The butterfly ballot was dumb graphic design.... roseBudd Jul 2012 #258

Yes. That's the official explanation. I'm not buying it. eom BlueCaliDem Jul 2012 #271

One of the grandest conspiracy theories yet on this thread. PDittie Jul 2012 #350

Gore & Clinton & Newt Gingrich Gave Us NAFTA & China MFN: Republicans All Nativo13 Jul 2012 #190

As you are a newcomer here, I will invite your attention to the TOS. MADem Jul 2012 #197

TOS is the last refuge of a scoundrel.. frylock Jul 2012 #424

No it isn't--it's a friendly notice to someone who is new, so they don't get PPR'd. MADem Jul 2012 #427

I love how you are concerned with being fair to Pat Buchanan. Comical. n/t mattclearing Jul 2012 #337

What's comical is your insistence that Ralph Nader's POV is progressive, when his conduct and MADem Jul 2012 #345

I know the 2000 election like the back of my hand, mattclearing Jul 2012 #356

I do not think you do otherwise you wouldn't have made those remarks. MADem Jul 2012 #363

This is where hypocrisy comes into play. mattclearing Jul 2012 #370

Now you are proving that you don't know a thing about that election. MADem Jul 2012 #374

Fair enough. mattclearing Jul 2012 #376

With Al Gore, we knew what we were getting--a corporate (if not friendly, not unfriendly) Democrat. MADem Jul 2012 #381

Gore didn't even win his own home state, FFS. Is that Nader's fault too? The coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #84

and yet, without Tennessee, he managed to win the election Capn Sunshine Jul 2012 #212

It's amazing how some people forget that Al Gore won the presidential election. BlueCaliDem Jul 2012 #234

This message was self-deleted by its author bupkus Jul 2012 #527

Bush Junior was selected, not elected Nativo13 Jul 2012 #187

And Nader took away enough votes to make it be closer than it should have been. uppityperson Jul 2012 #188

Welcome to DU, Nativo13! CaliforniaPeggy Jul 2012 #189

Thanks Nativo13 Jul 2012 #191

He was elected five to four, because Florida wasn't "clear." MADem Jul 2012 #205

well they cant stop fox from lying to the public so idk how they LET boner cand cantor peddle leftyohiolib Jul 2012 #5

He does have a point - we still have a DINO problem in the party. backscatter712 Jul 2012 #6

Do yu know how DINOs are like unicorns? GarroHorus Jul 2012 #16

??? sadbear Jul 2012 #100

Doubtful that the sarcasm tag was missed. mythology Jul 2012 #127

That is what we should take from this article. dtom67 Jul 2012 #20

EXACTLY....said for years they would bring us down Tippy Jul 2012 #57

And the truth is that when the public is polled on ISSUES sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #101

Don't worry -- Landreau is gone Sgent Jul 2012 #141

We don't have to nominate a right-wing Dem to win in Louisiana Ken Burch Jul 2012 #542

Bobby Jindal Sgent Jul 2012 #560

And the candidate nominated against him was undoubtedly the most right-wing Dem available Ken Burch Jul 2012 #561

Open primary Sgent Jul 2012 #565

What is the point of saying that? And are you blaming liberals for Jindal for some reason? Ken Burch Jul 2012 #567

Nader got the ball rolling when he assisted George Bush into the Presidency. pnwmom Jul 2012 #7

Bingo. TheWraith Jul 2012 #15

Not actually true. morningfog Jul 2012 #62

Yes, it's true. If all the miscast votes were allowed to stand, but the Nader voters pnwmom Jul 2012 #79

If all of the miscast votes for Buchanan had rightfully gone to Gore, Gore would have won morningfog Jul 2012 #85

+1,000,000,000 x 1,000,000,000 - Well put and definitely coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #88

So? That was a drop in the bucket compared to Nader's 95,000 votes, which he won by lying. pnwmom Jul 2012 #129

Here is my point for all the Nader haters. morningfog Jul 2012 #150

It isn't lazy to claim that. It's practical, common sense. Nader and many of his followers were pnwmom Jul 2012 #226

So, hate Nader, I have no problem with that. morningfog Jul 2012 #252

I don't give SCOTUS a free pass. What those 5 did was despicable. But that's what pnwmom Jul 2012 #293

He did nothing illegal. Katherine Harris purging black voters was a far greater offense. Selatius Jul 2012 #223

He LEGALLY helped Bush. Does that really make you feel better? That a so-called pnwmom Jul 2012 #228

A "progressive" who owned stock in Raytheon, McDonald's and union busting CISCO, for starters! MADem Jul 2012 #235

Nope. However, it was his constitutional right to run. Selatius Jul 2012 #458

Legally, yes. But he deliberately helped the Rethugs win the race. pnwmom Jul 2012 #459

With all due respect, I see no moral equivalence here. One intentionally disenfranchised thousands. Selatius Jul 2012 #469

This is a false premise. PDittie Jul 2012 #155

All Ralph had to do was endorse the Dem. MADem Jul 2012 #330

So you're mad at him for not endorsing? PDittie Jul 2012 #347

Ralph invested in war stocks, Walmart stocks, McDonald's stocks, Big Oil stocks, MADem Jul 2012 #365

Bullshit. That's nothing but an excuse. TheWraith Jul 2012 #95

So if Nader was only in it to get Bush elected, who was he trying to get A Simple Game Jul 2012 #118

Gore won the election so what is your point? sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #120

BULLSHIT! Nader did not "single handedly" get Bush elected. Shame on you for morningfog Jul 2012 #149

Please see #153 above. PDittie Jul 2012 #156

It gets too complicated for some to process deutsey Jul 2012 #371

That's because Nader made it close enough to steal. (nt) jeff47 Jul 2012 #494

I wish you hadn't mentioned Florida though hfojvt Jul 2012 #32

There could be said to be many deciding factors; but the only PROGRESSIVE who helped Bush pnwmom Jul 2012 #81

Correcting any of the other factors would have given the election to morningfog Jul 2012 #87

True. But the only PROGRESSIVE who could have made a significant difference pnwmom Jul 2012 #89

So, why place the blame on the "only progressive", when Harris and the SC were the morningfog Jul 2012 #151

Game. Set. And Match! bvar22 Jul 2012 #170

Because, in this situation, only the progressive can be said to have betrayed his own cause. pnwmom Jul 2012 #184

You're absolutely right... sunnystarr Jul 2012 #269

He is no progressive--he made sure the "winners" of the elections where he fouled the waters were MADem Jul 2012 #321

False. PDittie Jul 2012 #157

as my link points out hfojvt Jul 2012 #180

Yes it was the deciding factor. 95,000 votes versus 500. TheWraith Jul 2012 #97

I'll ask again, do you think Bush v. Gore was decided correctly? morningfog Jul 2012 #176

you apparently didn't read my link hfojvt Jul 2012 #178

300, 000 Democrats who voted for Bush. That's a hell a lot more than 95,000 sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #394

STFU Ralphie. Itchinjim Jul 2012 #8

Posts like this are why I don't want to be called a Democrat. limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #139

I feel the same emilyg Jul 2012 #166

"They?" Could your brush be any broader? MADem Jul 2012 #286

Thank you. limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #303

Will YOU make the same charge against President Obama and Citizens United? bvar22 Jul 2012 #305

I am not taking your point. MADem Jul 2012 #318

President Obama speaks in opposition to Citizens United, bvar22 Jul 2012 #367

President Obama is not an idiot. He has voiced his objection and acknowledges he has to play in the MADem Jul 2012 #373

What a total misinterpretation of Bvar's post. Your rage is becoming disturbing, frankly. sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #411

Well, Sabrina--that was both a rude and loaded comment. MADem Jul 2012 #429

You aren't "supporting Dermocrats" in THIS thread. bvar22 Jul 2012 #435

I am challenging anyone who believes that Ralph Nader, Right Wing Tool, represents "working class, MADem Jul 2012 #439

WOW. bvar22 Jul 2012 #457

See? bvar22 Jul 2012 #418

One more time--I am just not taking your point. MADem Jul 2012 #430

Oh YES!!! bvar22 Jul 2012 #437

Just because I have strong feelings about an issue does not mean I am unhappy. MADem Jul 2012 #438

+1. That's gonna leave a mark. Tarheel_Dem Jul 2012 #556

Well, why don't you make some nice tea for Ralph? aquart Jul 2012 #314

Not sure what ya mean limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #319

Well said. The only thing that keeps me in the Dem Party right now, are the people I know sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #410

I just think the anger against Nader is really misplaced. limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #419

Agreed. The vitriol expressed towards Nader seems to be unmatched by the same posters re Republicans AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #503

I don't think you are the only one who feels that way sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #514

Then why are you on DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND? If you're not a Democrat, then leave! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2012 #450

It's open to independents who vote for Dems. limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #451

Ralph Nader just needs to STFU. Brigid Jul 2012 #9

Maybe if extremest fuckwads weren't constantly dividing our party we would Motown_Johnny Jul 2012 #10

Precisely. It's not like he needs the money, he's a one percenter and a hypocrite about the source MADem Jul 2012 #294

Cheer up Ralph ProSense Jul 2012 #12

Fuck Ralph Nader. GarroHorus Jul 2012 #13

+4 tawadi Jul 2012 #396

Thank you for posting this! n/t Dalai_1 Jul 2012 #14

Fuck Ralph Nader Lochloosa Jul 2012 #17

Nader's own post shows that he wants Republicans, not Democrats, to be defeated AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #18

Nader acknowledges that corporatists have taken the Democratic party too upi402 Jul 2012 #19

Of course this is the truth, woo me with science Jul 2012 #257

Reflexive Shit Talk is easier whatchamacallit Jul 2012 #21

Nader is talking out of the side of his mouth. GarroHorus Jul 2012 #26

There he goes with the Holder vote again... TreasonousBastard Jul 2012 #31

I always ask, would you rather have the Blue Dogs and a Speaker Pelosi right now, Ikonoklast Jul 2012 #36

That's a pretty simple concept that too many of the puritopians fail to grasp...nt SidDithers Jul 2012 #44

Did you know that the old 'puritan' talking point went out with sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #105

None of the Blue Dogs HAD an "80% voting with me" record. Ken Burch Jul 2012 #507

Well the real point is. zeemike Jul 2012 #59

That depends - do you trust his words or his actions. jeff47 Jul 2012 #495

Was in Wisconsin when I voted for Nader in 2000. shcrane71 Jul 2012 #22

No ProSense Jul 2012 #23

umm... yeah. It is my experience; therefore it is accurate. shcrane71 Jul 2012 #263

Absolutely. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #264

You are correct. The only Dems I've ever met who hate Nader are political sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #412

Just say "Nader" and the Vichy-Dems go nuts. Wilms Jul 2012 #24

You're saying we exterminate Jews, gays, gypsies DevonRex Jul 2012 #27

Not at all. Wilms Jul 2012 #30

And either you know how insulting Vichy Dems is or you don't, DevonRex Jul 2012 #33

Believe me I'm aware how insulting Vichy-Dems are. Wilms Jul 2012 #46

Aww. Bless your heart. You can't help it. DevonRex Jul 2012 #86

hey, it's Christmas in July.. doddering 'ol ralph has provided a day's worth of fun for the resident dionysus Jul 2012 #64

The guy Godwined his own post! DevonRex Jul 2012 #83

how is the estate these days? wadsworth is spending a fortune keeping the grounds green lately. dionysus Jul 2012 #96

We have a vole who's eating all the snow in summer. DevonRex Jul 2012 #104

What a despicable comparison. You should be ashamed of yourself. nt MADem Jul 2012 #238

I'm crushed. Wilms Jul 2012 #249

I think shame would be the more appropriate reaction. MADem Jul 2012 #272

You've said as much. Wilms Jul 2012 #290

You're defending a 1 percenter who's all about himself, and using an offensive reference to do so. MADem Jul 2012 #297

You've mistaken me for someone defending him. Wilms Jul 2012 #306

The OP is all about Ralph conning the sheep-masses. I suggest you take your own advice. MADem Jul 2012 #312

Not my read on it. Wilms Jul 2012 #316

It's not about his First Amendment Rights. MADem Jul 2012 #320

I find your argument as compelling as your link-less assertions. Wilms Jul 2012 #324

Unlike you, apparently, I have read the entire thread. MADem Jul 2012 #326

Gee. Wilms Jul 2012 #334

That was before the war made it worth millions. MADem Jul 2012 #341

I'm pretty much done with your off-topic-ness. Wilms Jul 2012 #348

Keep supporting Ralph. By so doing, you are supporting a GOP candidate and making Ralph rich. MADem Jul 2012 #351

It's about DINOs. Wilms Jul 2012 #353

Repeatedly bellowing a falsehood does not make it true. Check the OP. MADem Jul 2012 #366

. Wilms Jul 2012 #368

.? What does that mean? Here's some light reading for you re: Progressive Ralph... MADem Jul 2012 #401

Anti-Union Ralph Nader fools the gullible sooo easily. They keep his little family-run empire in Ikonoklast Jul 2012 #34

Actually, in the OP Nader IS attacking republicans and their policies. Wilms Jul 2012 #47

And on the other hand, he's whining at CISCO because his stock has fallen in value; he wants a MADem Jul 2012 #239

+1 Le Taz Hot Jul 2012 #38

nader is the one who aided the fascists, making him the vichey progressive arely staircase Jul 2012 #48

Really? I thought it was Clinton/Gore pushing WTO/NAFTA. Wilms Jul 2012 #98

no it was nader taking money from the gop to defeat the democrats arely staircase Jul 2012 #109

Are you saying offshoring is OK if your a DINO? Wilms Jul 2012 #115

no im saying ralph nader deserves much of the credit for the dystopia that was the cheney years arely staircase Jul 2012 #130

Well, you're not alone. I'll give you that. Wilms Jul 2012 #143

gore would not have invaded iraq nt arely staircase Jul 2012 #144

I hope he wouldn't have. Wilms Jul 2012 #147

Well, Ralph had stock in Halliburton, General Dynamics, and Raytheon, for starters. MADem Jul 2012 #300

In one or 2 sentences, please state the democrats vision/agenda for America. thank you :-) nt msongs Jul 2012 #28

here you go arely staircase Jul 2012 #55

"Not as bad" and "The Lesser of Two Evils" Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2012 #80

Health care/social safety net/equality. GOP? Rich get richer, fuck you poor folks. NT MADem Jul 2012 #327

The worst thing that Nader did... kentuck Jul 2012 #29

Gee, Ralph...maybe you should enter the race. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2012 #35

But..but..caving to the Repugs is "smart politics". Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2012 #37

Nuck Fader. How many elections has he won? NashvilleLefty Jul 2012 #39

Let me add my UnrepentantLiberal Jul 2012 #40

I like Ralph Nader Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #41

FUCK NADER!!! Odin2005 Jul 2012 #42

Fuck Ralph Nader...nt SidDithers Jul 2012 #43

+1 treestar Jul 2012 #52

what a sad little man nader has become arely staircase Jul 2012 #45

Think about the millions he has in union-busting CISCO stock--that'll tamp down those pangs, too. nt MADem Jul 2012 #210

We should landslide in Nov.. otherone Jul 2012 #50

Sure hope so... Kyad06 Jul 2012 #56

Fuck Ralph Nader! aikoaiko Jul 2012 #51

This is all your fault, Nader Gman Jul 2012 #53

The Democrats are caving to the Repugs to please Nader?? Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2012 #68

No, we would have few if any of the problems we have now Gman Jul 2012 #195

Nader ran as a Green. Not a Democrat. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2012 #196

Or to Tennessee, his own state, Le Taz Hot Jul 2012 #389

Post removed Post removed Jul 2012 #60

Post removed Post removed Jul 2012 #71

I hate to say anything good about that loser, but many of the things he says about us democrats, demosincebirth Jul 2012 #61

Does he still exist? Who knew? Orrex Jul 2012 #65

Hey Ralph, what do you care? Progressive dog Jul 2012 #66

He is correct on this Anarcho-Socialist Jul 2012 #67

I think he suffers from an inflated-ego, but HE'S RIGHT about this. They have nothing to lose. patrice Jul 2012 #69

Show me a politician who does NOT have an inflated ego with narcissistic tendencies. bvar22 Jul 2012 #302

Yep. This is why we NEED public campaign finance and instant-run-off-voting. nt patrice Jul 2012 #531

If Bernie Sanders has them, he controls them pretty well. nt patrice Jul 2012 #532

STFU, Nader! lastlib Jul 2012 #70

Re Nader: "I don't think I've ever met a bigger asshole" DinahMoeHum Jul 2012 #72

I have a link that will do. Ralph Nader was a war profiteer, steering votes to the war candidate. MADem Jul 2012 #335

+1 Tarheel_Dem Jul 2012 #340

Nader, horsefly Skidmore Jul 2012 #73

He's RIGHT!! Continued backbone failure and triangulation will lead to defeat on point Jul 2012 #74

You want a backbone? Aerows Jul 2012 #434

+1 nt MADem Jul 2012 #441

Ahh I love seeing the Nader bashers. white_wolf Jul 2012 #75

+1 DJ13 Jul 2012 #82

What's that ProSense Jul 2012 #91

Ralph Nader lied in 2000. He made possible the theft of the election. libinnyandia Jul 2012 #94

Q: Why was the 'lie' so easy to believe? girl gone mad Jul 2012 #315

Gore did not equal Bush. That was a lie. And can you tell me why Nader ran again in 2004 and libinnyandia Jul 2012 #357

Gore won the election, so it's funny to see anyone who is a Democrat sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #106

+1 n/t lordsummerisle Jul 2012 #159

Nader had plenty to do with the theft jeff47 Jul 2012 #496

No, he didn't. Not one serious analysis of what happened in 2000 ever sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #515

You are only assigning the literal votes for Nader as the effect. jeff47 Jul 2012 #517

Most of what you just said is merely supposition. sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #519

Why the hell do I bother? jeff47 Jul 2012 #522

You're blaming Gore treestar Jul 2012 #112

Well said. When someone tells you not to listen to Nader, shcrane71 Jul 2012 #265

I find it's much more important to watch Nader than listen to him jeff47 Jul 2012 #497

I love seeing the clueless defenders of that Hypocritical One Percenter/GOP Corporate Tool. nt MADem Jul 2012 #298

I have to agree with everyone else... FUCK Ralph Nader!!! RevStPatrick Jul 2012 #76

Fuck Ralph Nader, Democrats should cower even *more* abjectly.. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #78

You know the drill libodem Jul 2012 #90

I used to love Nader ... Now I despise him .... but HE IS RIGHT ! Trajan Jul 2012 #93

I agree except that Teamster Jeff Jul 2012 #103

I'm sorry, but what's Nader's winning percentage in elections? onenote Jul 2012 #99

More attacking the messenger, huh? sadbear Jul 2012 #102

Why? Because Dean is trying to help. What's Nader doing to help fight the Rethugs? pnwmom Jul 2012 #202

Criticizing Dems for not being pure enough sadbear Jul 2012 #248

"Glowering" Nader faces obscurity Kolesar Jul 2012 #108

"Twelve percent of Florida Democrats (over 200,000) voted for George Bush" -San Francisco Chronicle Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2012 #110

Ok, and how many of those did so because "there's no difference between Bush and Gore"? jeff47 Jul 2012 #498

So, maybe Gore should have set out to prove enough of difference and captured the Left. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2012 #505

And it was Nader's call to go after the left jeff47 Jul 2012 #516

Why would it have been Nader's job to help his opponent win? Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2012 #524

By your logic, it's Nader's fault. (nt) jeff47 Jul 2012 #578

Hate on Nader if you will, but he is right. AnOhioan Jul 2012 #111

Thanks for facillitating ShrubCo you dweebie fuck orpupilofnature57 Jul 2012 #113

If Dems are so afraid of challenges from the left... limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #114

Naw. They'd rather blame the voters than appeal to them. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2012 #117

HaHahaHA. Because grumpy old Nader appeals to SO many!! DevonRex Jul 2012 #119

Well, grumpy old Nader wrecked the election according to some. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2012 #146

Well, make up your mind. He is either the most powerful man in America sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #313

Nader would STILL have run and used the same right-wing talking points, NYC Liberal Jul 2012 #135

Anybody should be allowed to run. The point is he would not have had any support. limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #142

It has nothing to do with being "allowed" to run. NYC Liberal Jul 2012 #152

We learned very different lessons from the 2000 election I guess. limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #168

"defeat" is something he is an expert in. Bluerthanblue Jul 2012 #116

Nader is a copy cat. bvar22 Jul 2012 #121

Oh great. Now you're running the risk that they are going to trash Truman and Wellstone. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #175

He is a wealthy, secretive, lawbreaking liar who gambles with his non-profit money and doesn't pay MADem Jul 2012 #398

Bingo RN got it in one, If the Democratic candidates would campaign on a Progressive Populous Vincardog Jul 2012 #122

Renewable energy is enough for me Kolesar Jul 2012 #124

I'm still waiting for the definitive Democratic Party branding campaign ... Auggie Jul 2012 #123

I disagree with the "cowering" but I don't think we're doing enough. :( nt gateley Jul 2012 #125

Punxsutawney Ralph. AtomicKitten Jul 2012 #126

Nader needs to stay under his rock he only comes out to bite. gordianot Jul 2012 #128

Another GOP Hack (Nader) Quoted In A GOP Rag (Politico)... stlsaxman Jul 2012 #131

What Nader fails to recognize is a large demographic in this country are made up of racist right still_one Jul 2012 #132

Why blame nader instead of the people who voted for him? limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #136

I blame Nader, I also blame Gore, the supreme court, and the ballots the confused many people still_one Jul 2012 #173

He's right. BE the fucking Democratic party again. MrSlayer Jul 2012 #133

Fuck scum Nadir. n/t BlueToTheBone Jul 2012 #134

Good to see Ralph sticking up for the Republicans NYC Liberal Jul 2012 #137

wasn't he on 'happy days' ? spanone Jul 2012 #138

Good article. Nader is right Autumn Jul 2012 #140

The Ground Hog sees his shadow, posts an article, then goes back to sleep. JoePhilly Jul 2012 #145

Spoken like someone who's won a lot of elected offices. Oh, wait. He hasn't won ANY! nt Honeycombe8 Jul 2012 #148

Do you ever criticize Repubs, Ralph, or do you just silently take their money? great white snark Jul 2012 #154

"Craven and cruel corporatist Republicans" sounds like it might possibly be a criticism... Fumesucker Jul 2012 #158

F Nader richmwill Jul 2012 #160

Ralph Nader can go jump in a lake. Arkana Jul 2012 #161

"Craven and cruel corporatist Republicans" sounds like it might possibly be a criticism... Fumesucker Jul 2012 #174

The guy has a point, in that it would be great to have a real liberal/progressive party in quinnox Jul 2012 #162

FU RN. Nt stevenleser Jul 2012 #163

Mr. Nader is correct Skittles Jul 2012 #164

Ditto. emilyg Jul 2012 #167

well.....he`s right madrchsod Jul 2012 #169

Perhaps one of the reasons that Nader is hated by so many here Bonobo Jul 2012 #177

+1 nashville_brook Jul 2012 #179

That must be it! Tarheel_Dem Jul 2012 #181

Oh thanks for reminding me --there's another possibility... Bonobo Jul 2012 #182

That assessment gets my vote. bvar22 Jul 2012 #453

100%. One of the last that changed the world for the better, and he is reviled for it. Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #192

I'm pretty sure a lot of people just see him as a useful idiot for the right. joshcryer Jul 2012 #221

Useful to the GOP and no idiot--his war profiteering stocks made him wealthy. nt MADem Jul 2012 #343

"Real" progressives take cash from GOP donors and own stock in Raytheon, etc? Who knew?? nt MADem Jul 2012 #240

No, we hate him because we watch what he does, not just what he says. jeff47 Jul 2012 #500

I started wondering about him when he stiffed a crowd of several hundred several years ago patrice Jul 2012 #530

Great! Tips from the "liberal" asshole who called my president an Uncle Tom. Tarheel_Dem Jul 2012 #183

Very well said! Bravo! nt MADem Jul 2012 #211

Agree. + The words "liberal" and "conservative" are practically meaningless anymore. Reclaim them??? patrice Jul 2012 #533

Folks like Ralph Nader have perverted the term "liberal", which is why I no longer claim it. Tarheel_Dem Jul 2012 #536

Geez is that tool still alive? n/t progressivebydesign Jul 2012 #185

Like so many others have said... SkyDaddy7 Jul 2012 #186

While cowering isn't the word I would use.. SomethingFishy Jul 2012 #193

Man, the mention of the N word really sets a blaze. JoeyT Jul 2012 #194

Why isn't Nader sending his troops to help Dems in the fight for progressive values? pnwmom Jul 2012 #198

Because Faux won't pay him those sweet appearance fees to tout for the left side of the equation. MADem Jul 2012 #227

Nader makes more money for his organization when the Rethugs are in power. pnwmom Jul 2012 #230

If we had individual post rec you'd be racking up the numbers!! nt MADem Jul 2012 #236

Nader is an ass... sendero Jul 2012 #242

Ralph doesn't care about your hate. the other one Jul 2012 #245

"A democratic may be different from a republican, but both parties are the same" Tarheel_Dem Jul 2012 #346

Ralph Nader, writing the same article over and over for decades Democat Jul 2012 #247

Hey, Ralph Nader knows a thing or two about........... Amaril Jul 2012 #250

If this is Nader's tilt on reverse psychology, no_hypocrisy Jul 2012 #251

Nader is irrelevant excrement. MjolnirTime Jul 2012 #254

Not according to the majority of posters in this thread. bvar22 Jul 2012 #270

Where do you get that crap? Nader is a whining spoiler who managed to fuck over progressives MADem Jul 2012 #274

The NERVE! bvar22 Jul 2012 #308

While investing in WAL MART, where he benefitted from those regulation changes! MADem Jul 2012 #311

Can you name a single Democratic Politician... bvar22 Jul 2012 #328

You are deliberately being obtuse. Nader decried the government war machine, he pretended to be in MADem Jul 2012 #332

Hey Ralph. Eat some shit and die NNN0LHI Jul 2012 #255

Why would Nader care? He hates the Democratic Party. libinnyandia Jul 2012 #260

We LOVE us some "ex" Republicans, though. Just change your letter, Ralph--those Romulox Jul 2012 #261

I mean, some guy posted a long OP the other day from a guy who "converted" to an "ex" Pub--in 2007! Romulox Jul 2012 #262

Not trying to inconvenience you but any chance do you have a link to that OP? NNN0LHI Jul 2012 #266

Here ya go: "Ex" (circa 2007!) Republican calls for "purity", stifling of dissent. 108 DUers agree! Romulox Jul 2012 #285

Now THAT is a classic! bvar22 Jul 2012 #452

You know, some people do see that as prioritizing a dynamic process, not stifling, because some patrice Jul 2012 #534

Ralphie Boy! Long time no see! How come you only visit every four years? JHB Jul 2012 #267

Never mistake collusion for cowering. woo me with science Jul 2012 #276

This is right limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #361

I respected Ralph Nader about 20 years ago. Cary Jul 2012 #277

He's absolutely correct. matmar Jul 2012 #281

One thing so sad about 2000 is that Al Gore seems to have learned so little from it. He still Romulox Jul 2012 #287

Daring to be "more progressive?" Not by his stock portfolio, he wasn't!!!! MADem Jul 2012 #304

Al Gore's portforlio was/is no more progressive. girl gone mad Jul 2012 #317

Al Gore wasn't playing the scold. Nader was scolding the Dems while holding a GOP stock portfolio. MADem Jul 2012 #325

Al Gore is worth $100 million, a good deal of which was made via gov't connections. nt Romulox Jul 2012 #413

Yes, and Al never pretended to be a po'boy, living in a rooming house with a bathroom down the hall, MADem Jul 2012 #432

Al is an environmental scold who uses more energy than 10 average families. He also SELLS carbon Romulox Jul 2012 #447

And this is known about him. For years. So what? MADem Jul 2012 #461

It's contemptible, hypocritical behavior that completely vitiates Al's ability to scold others. nt Romulox Jul 2012 #490

Al never wore sackcloth and ashes. He never played the poor boy. MADem Jul 2012 #513

LOOK everybody! A Ralph Nader post. Everybody dog pile on Ralph. Hotler Jul 2012 #291

It's not a "dog pile" to call a one-percenter hypocrite for what he is. MADem Jul 2012 #307

Can you name a politician who is NOT a 1%er? sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #379

Ralph is the only one I know who plays poor boy while raking in the millions. MADem Jul 2012 #383

I have never heard him call himself 'a poor boy' nor have I ever heard him sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #386

Am I the only one here who is old enough to know about the cult of Ralph? MADem Jul 2012 #392

It's very possible that he was once not a wealthy man. sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #397

He has been wealthy since he started insider trading in the seventies--and maybe earlier. MADem Jul 2012 #399

Sorry, but the Nader hatred while interesting, still has zero to do with the theft of the sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #403

I differ as do many others. I invite your careful attention to that sourced document I provided to MADem Jul 2012 #404

I have read many expert analysis of the theft of the 2000 election and Nader barely sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #405

Well, that's nice. I don't agree with your experts and I am not alone. MADem Jul 2012 #407

In the end, one thing caused the loss of what was a win for Gore, the USSC. sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #408

I have all those stocks in my portfolio now also. Does that make me a bad person too.?? Hotler Jul 2012 #380

I take my anger to the voting booth, and I bring voters with me every election. MADem Jul 2012 #382

I welcome ANYBODY who will STAND UP and say... bvar22 Jul 2012 #309

Fuck Nadar and Ann RMoney, Too we can do it Jul 2012 #310

Yes, the Democratic party Aerows Jul 2012 #329

+1,000 nt MADem Jul 2012 #406

These Nader folks Aerows Jul 2012 #433

They are very young, and/or very naive. They don't know his horrible, anti-worker, anti-union MADem Jul 2012 #443

This thread cracks me up. laundry_queen Jul 2012 #349

Well, I am a practical activist. MADem Jul 2012 #355

It's a mystery why this thread even exists. blue neen Jul 2012 #364

haha limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #387

Good! blue neen Jul 2012 #409

It's just history. limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #420

that about sums it up. Dems in party leadership seem loathe to call bullshit on the GOP yurbud Jul 2012 #372

Ralph Nader is a wolf in sheeps clothing. AJTheMan Jul 2012 #390

He's no liberal--he's an authoritarian ass who gets stock tips from his GOP pals. MADem Jul 2012 #393

If we used one-tenth of this energy generated by the vitriol expressed here for Ralph Nader amb123 Jul 2012 #414

The vitriol is directed at *people who share Nader's beliefs*. The ones who say "Fuck Nader" are Romulox Jul 2012 #415

Is there a possibility that the revulsion is for the "framers" as opposed to the "framing"? Tarheel_Dem Jul 2012 #422

!!!!!! dionysus Jul 2012 #445

"Speak of the devil, and he will appear..." nt Romulox Jul 2012 #446

!!!! Tarheel_Dem Jul 2012 #448

We wouldn't have had Bush in 2000 if Gore had run an anti-corporate domination campaign. Ken Burch Jul 2012 #508

Regurgitated "Naderisms" and his apologists have absolutely no effect on me. Sorry. Tarheel_Dem Jul 2012 #525

It's not a Naderism...it's the truth...Nader didn't invent that observation Ken Burch Jul 2012 #538

Okay. Thanks. Tarheel_Dem Jul 2012 #539

And you're silly "waving" smilie doesn't discredit any of my points. Ken Burch Jul 2012 #541

I agree. "Centrists" are gutless, political cowards amb123 Jul 2012 #431

UNREC. People who say FUCK RALPH NADER know that he was and continues to be a tool of the GOP. MADem Jul 2012 #442

So then Nader should be building his party of progressives that have a chance to beat Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2012 #416

He has certainly amassed a personal fortune for himself and his lobbying firms. MADem Jul 2012 #444

And that's why the Greens all but banished him from the party. Many of them realized that he was Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2012 #449

It's pretty clear that there wasn't much love there, particularly when his own VP candidate was MADem Jul 2012 #460

I agree with him 100%. Hell Hath No Fury Jul 2012 #421

If Ralphie is so brilliant and so full of civic concern, why hasn't he run mac56 Jul 2012 #425

Given that there doesn't even seem to be a third-party presidential campaign this year Ken Burch Jul 2012 #454

Yes there is. The Greens just aren't having Big Mouth Ralph ruin their reputations anymore. MADem Jul 2012 #462

Then we can assume that the existence of a Green ticket this year Ken Burch Jul 2012 #464

You never know. MADem Jul 2012 #471

Just so you know, I actually agree with your critique of the Greens on organizational matters Ken Burch Jul 2012 #476

I disagree with you re: Wellstone and Kennedy, but that is an argument for another day. MADem Jul 2012 #486

Just a little bit of info AnOhioan Jul 2012 #489

Good point. So, in EVERY state with a Democratic legislature and governor Ken Burch Jul 2012 #491

Only if you pretend turnout doesn't matter. jeff47 Jul 2012 #502

Then it's up to this party to INSPIRE turnout Ken Burch Jul 2012 #504

It would be nice if you'd bother to read a post before replying to it. jeff47 Jul 2012 #518

I did read the post Ken Burch Jul 2012 #520

You read the title. jeff47 Jul 2012 #521

I read the post Ken Burch Jul 2012 #523

+1,000 nt MADem Jul 2012 #511

You don't build turnout by silencing dissent. Ken Burch Jul 2012 #543

I know the difference between "dissent" and "flinging shit at GOP command." MADem Jul 2012 #544

The people who show up the most and vote Ken Burch Jul 2012 #545

Not in my universe, and I've been at this (when I was in USA, anyway) since the Vietnam era. MADem Jul 2012 #548

I've never insulted or disrespected the voters you're talking about there. Ken Burch Jul 2012 #550

Well, I will take you at your word, but I've seen plenty of snark--in this thread--about centrists MADem Jul 2012 #552

I'm not "cheering on Nader" or calling for Dems to recruit Nader. Ken Burch Jul 2012 #555

I am not "demanding" anything. I simply don't care to waste my time on a GOP corporate tool and MADem Jul 2012 #562

This isn't about validating Ralph as a person...why can't you see that? Ken Burch Jul 2012 #563

What this is "about" is a load of shit stirring by a GOP tool. There is no distinction to be made. MADem Jul 2012 #564

How would making our party more populist fuck with our chances? Ken Burch Jul 2012 #568

The battle this year is RMoney against the working/middle class. MADem Jul 2012 #569

Obama just ratfucked that campaign by putting Cory Booker, the Bain apologist, on the platform comm. Ken Burch Jul 2012 #570

"Ratfucked?" Karl Rove, is that you? MADem Jul 2012 #571

It goes back before Rove Ken Burch Jul 2012 #572

I know only that you're interested in touting a guy who has twice been a mouthpiece for the GOP. MADem Jul 2012 #573

I'm not touting the guy...it isn't ABOUT the guy. Ken Burch Jul 2012 #574

Oh, bullshit. You can't possibly be that gullible. nt MADem Jul 2012 #575

It's not gullibility simply to disagree with YOU. Ken Burch Jul 2012 #576

Keep arguing with yourself, then, if you'd like. nt MADem Jul 2012 #577

3 years of attacking Obama from all sides is what did it...... FrenchieCat Jul 2012 #470

Nader is like Frankenstein, they roll him out of his crypt every 4 years to try and scare everyone. Major Hogwash Jul 2012 #483

+1,000,000! nt MADem Jul 2012 #487

488. Go Ralph Go!!! the other one Jul 2012 #488

In electoral terms, Ralph's already gone. Ken Burch Jul 2012 #493

Ralph, I love ya, but STFU, OK? Taverner Jul 2012 #499

Fuck you, Ralph Nader 47of74 Jul 2012 #510

Sit on it Ralph!!! Rex Jul 2012 #528

Hmmm...looks like it's time for Ralphie to awaken from his four year slumber Downtown Hound Jul 2012 #535

I'm no fan of this particular messenger . . . markpkessinger Jul 2012 #537

I think you'll find that most people here agree with Nader's positions either a lot or some Downtown Hound Jul 2012 #547

As a member of the Democratic Party of Wisconsin/DPW I know those of you that solely blame Nader bobthedrummer Jul 2012 #540

I don't blame Nader solely but there's no question that he siphoned off votes for Gore Cary Jul 2012 #551

Welcome to DU, Cary-it was a COUP-different from November 22, 1963--friendly fascism style. n/t bobthedrummer Jul 2012 #566

Ralph, I have a message for you from the great Cee Lo Green.... Rosco T. Jul 2012 #546

+1,000,000! nt MADem Jul 2012 #549

Forget Florida -- The real Nader damage occurred in New Hampshire in 2000... VOX Jul 2012 #553

Why is this thread still here? demosincebirth Jul 2012 #554

OMG, I can't believe a Nader thread in 2012 has 566 responses. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2012 #557