General Discussion

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)

53. Collective ownership seems to be the core

Reply to coalition_unwilling (Reply #51)

Tue Jul 10, 2012, 05:30 PM

Jul 2012

The dictionary definition is:

"any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods"

In digging deeper, it seems like there are a lot of different philosophies regarding the exact structure and blend of governmental vs. worker owned entities, etc.

And that is where I start to get confused and wonder "Which kind of socialism are people advocating?" and "How specifically is the system legally, economically, and culturally formed and maintained?"

It seems that my questions and uncertainty comes off as "red baiting", since I hold no ideas, ideology, dogma, individuals, or organizations as sacred. I think EVERYTHING needs to be examined and forced to prove itself.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

140 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Mayor abruptly slashes wages to minimum for Scranton City Workers [View all] TBF Jul 2012 OP

They're flat broke. What do you suggest they do? badtoworse Jul 2012 #1

I suggest they raise taxes - TBF Jul 2012 #2

The mayor proposed that, but the people in Scranton don't want higher taxes,... badtoworse Jul 2012 #6

I don't care if rich people don't want to be taxed - TBF Jul 2012 #7

Most property owners in Scranton are not rich Freddie Stubbs Jul 2012 #10

I'm not going to get in any fights about defining the word "rich" - TBF Jul 2012 #13

Many of these 'well off' property owners are retirees on fixed incomes Freddie Stubbs Jul 2012 #26

Again, will not bite on that. Property owners who expect fire and police TBF Jul 2012 #28

$7.25/hour is not a living wage --do you suggest employees stop living? CreekDog Jul 2012 #21

Oh course not Freddie Stubbs Jul 2012 #32

OK so then the state or federal gov't will have to move some money from limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #38

Sounds easy to me. nt TBF Jul 2012 #45

Have you ever been in Scranton? How many rich people do you think live there? badtoworse Jul 2012 #12

See my post #13 - not biting. nt TBF Jul 2012 #14

I read Post No. 20. $128,000 median home price doesn't sound like a rich neighborhood to me. badtoworse Jul 2012 #27

Again, I'm not playing these republican split the people games TBF Jul 2012 #29

BTW, the mayor and the city council are Democrats badtoworse Jul 2012 #46

I realize that and I'm not surprised that you would point it out. TBF Jul 2012 #49

Yes, raise them anyway nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #9

Sometimes, democracy sucks when people don't vote right! FrodosPet Jul 2012 #36

lolol - don't even start with me TBF Jul 2012 #37

And then what? FrodosPet Jul 2012 #47

Here ya go - TBF Jul 2012 #48

I don't have that kind of money for books now FrodosPet Jul 2012 #50

Here ya go - online and free TBF Jul 2012 #58

That's it exactly. They expect to have a working socialist system......... socialist_n_TN Jul 2012 #71

how much of this can be chalked up to demonization of government workers that has CTyankee Jul 2012 #88

Simple concepts but a lot of money is spent to confuse folks - TBF Jul 2012 #92

I hope we can do that. Perhaps we get a dozen or so George Clooneys together to get our CTyankee Jul 2012 #95

Are you interested in a serious discussion about socialist remedies for the coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #51

Collective ownership seems to be the core FrodosPet Jul 2012 #53

All good socialists agree that everything needs to be examined and forced coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #62

Just a quick comparison, but it looks like they do pay something already. jtuck004 Jul 2012 #67

Personally I would look at this from a global perspective TBF Jul 2012 #68

Pay for it out of the federal income tax? n/t jtuck004 Jul 2012 #73

Yes - I would nationalize schools, services, etc... TBF Jul 2012 #78

Can the state not step in and assist? jpbollma Jul 2012 #3

There is no short term. jtuck004 Jul 2012 #74

Good post! Sterling Jul 2012 #117

why are counties states and townships broke? Becasue federal aid has been slashed repeatedly librechik Jul 2012 #4

I agree - in fact I'd go further and nationalize every TBF Jul 2012 #5

I agree 100000% truebrit71 Jul 2012 #30

Grover Norquist needs to be sentenced to life without parole in prison Woody Woodpecker Jul 2012 #33

Grover Nordquist's mother DID have an abortion! yoyossarian Jul 2012 #44

States and municipalities used to be able to proved services without federal assistance Freddie Stubbs Jul 2012 #34

You mean back when there were union jobs and folks could TBF Jul 2012 #35

+100! n/t librechik Jul 2012 #40

...because of the crash & recession, higher unemployment, and other fallout from the bubble (like HiPointDem Jul 2012 #94

What do you suggest? Gman Jul 2012 #11

I don't see any solution to this badtoworse Jul 2012 #19

If I'm the firemen and police I hold a union meeting and immediately strike - TBF Jul 2012 #31

better yet, a general strike, like they do in Europe. Followed by an emergency librechik Jul 2012 #41

Agree - folks have to be thinking in this direction TBF Jul 2012 #42

take our government back--for real librechik Jul 2012 #52

What about people who refuse to participate? FrodosPet Jul 2012 #54

My response to that is help or get out of the way. nt TBF Jul 2012 #55

I suggest the city employees declare his actions a violation of their labor agreements... Chan790 Jul 2012 #128

Then I suggest the city workers start putting in minimum effort krispos42 Jul 2012 #8

Does this include the mayor and the city council's paychecks? Fawke Em Jul 2012 #15

the headline says "workers" Enrique Jul 2012 #18

As I understand it, it's everyone, up to and including the mayor. badtoworse Jul 2012 #22

Do you have a cite for that? TBF Jul 2012 #25

Try these badtoworse Jul 2012 #39

Interesting - wonder about his family background TBF Jul 2012 #43

Yes nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #24

Looks like gross fiscal management from the mayor on down... KansDem Jul 2012 #16

that parking bond deal looks pretty corrupt to me. esp. since the parking authority people HiPointDem Jul 2012 #98

Who doesn't think it can happen to them? NNN0LHI Jul 2012 #17

Yes, I've seen your posts - TBF Jul 2012 #23

Interestingly CNNMoney ranked it as one of the TBF Jul 2012 #20

Out here fly-by-night LLCs are buying up foreclosures at auction and turning them into rentals. Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #60

that *is* interesting. HiPointDem Jul 2012 #99

Common sense says taxes simply shift private spending to government spending. jody Jul 2012 #56

I disagree with your framing - TBF Jul 2012 #59

I said nothing about "privatizing services". Do you have a solution to the problem? nt jody Jul 2012 #63

As I said, I disagree with your interpretation of the "problem". TBF Jul 2012 #69

LOL please start your own thread stating your proposed solution and I'll be delighted to read and jody Jul 2012 #109

lol I already started a thread - TBF Jul 2012 #110

My statement "taxes simply shift private spending to government spending" is based on economic jody Jul 2012 #112

No TBF Jul 2012 #113

"right-wing talking point"! Have you ever read the Kentucky & Virginia Resolutions by Jefferson and jody Jul 2012 #114

How can you call it "freedom" when an owner.......... socialist_n_TN Jul 2012 #111

Understand your anger and hostility but you do have the freedom to start your own company and jody Jul 2012 #115

You can't start companies without capital - TBF Jul 2012 #122

If you prepare a business plan, see link to SBA for help, that has promise, jody Jul 2012 #139

why are you here? i think you want the neoliberal forum. HiPointDem Jul 2012 #135

Why am I here? I'm a Yellow Dog Democrat in the Jefferson/Madison pattern, the founders of my jody Jul 2012 #138

He's here because he's socially liberal and fiscally conservative like Obama - TBF Jul 2012 #140

bullshit. HiPointDem Jul 2012 #134

Police and firefighters will move to another city Blue_In_AK Jul 2012 #57

See "Detroit". Thank you for your comment because it is the reason I took the TBF Jul 2012 #61

since this undoubtedly violates their collective bargaining agreements... mike_c Jul 2012 #64

They're filing law suits but they need to be in the streets - TBF Jul 2012 #70

Don't you know mike, contracts are only for the wealthy......... socialist_n_TN Jul 2012 #72

Did Hizzoner cut his OWN pay to minimum wage? Bake Jul 2012 #65

You bet wrong. former9thward Jul 2012 #66

Well, I'm shocked. Bake Jul 2012 #100

I have been on DU for 2 or 3 years sweetapogee Jul 2012 #75

"Someone please tell me how the pukes in Harrisburg can stop the city of Scranton from filing" Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2012 #76

great response! sweetapogee Jul 2012 #77

Harrisburg got thrown out. They did not have permission from the state. n/t jtuck004 Jul 2012 #84

that sweetapogee Jul 2012 #86

Could they not find something useful to do? That's like 'pubs voting to oust O's insurance plan jtuck004 Jul 2012 #87

I understand and appreciate your frustration. sweetapogee Jul 2012 #89

That will likely get tossed. The BK court will defer to the state. Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2012 #96

not to pick nits, really sweetapogee Jul 2012 #104

Thanks for your comments and I'm not pissed at all - TBF Jul 2012 #79

thanks!!! sweetapogee Jul 2012 #80

Well the current management can be replaced. TBF Jul 2012 #81

Bond Guarantees. New York Times article that explains some more. Not just Scranton but nc4bo Jul 2012 #83

Taibbi had a huge piece on this, too Blue_Tires Jul 2012 #91

the taxpayers weren't given a chance to vote on the bond question -- who made that decision? HiPointDem Jul 2012 #97

So it's either raise taxes to the point where it directly pays for city services jtuck004 Jul 2012 #85

I'm south of Scranton sweetapogee Jul 2012 #90

Well, let me ask you something then sweetapogee NNN0LHI Jul 2012 #101

no argument sweetapogee Jul 2012 #105

Free trade is destroying the tax base of hundreds of cities across America. reformist2 Jul 2012 #82

Yup, that's the way I see it as well - TBF Jul 2012 #93

As a government worker and union member, if my pay was cut to minimum wage because upaloopa Jul 2012 #102

Solidarity brother - TBF Jul 2012 #103

maybe I should just stop now BUT... sweetapogee Jul 2012 #106

What is going on with that general account? nt TBF Jul 2012 #107

again complicated sweetapogee Jul 2012 #108

Good point and that's your right and a governor has the power to activate the unorganized militia to jody Jul 2012 #116

As a government worker I have sworn the same oath to protect and defend. If called I would have to upaloopa Jul 2012 #118

Sorry but you misjudge me, I've been a govt. worker. I simply pointed out the power each governor jody Jul 2012 #119

Sorry about that. What most people don't understand is that we could be ordered to work for free! upaloopa Jul 2012 #121

It sounds like the problem lies with the parking authority. HooptieWagon Jul 2012 #120

No thought whatsoever toward reducing spending? OrgExp Jul 2012 #123

What spending is rampant & unchecked? aintitfunny Jul 2012 #124

Rampant & Unchecked? OrgExp Jul 2012 #126

Defense - rampant and unchecked. Close every overseas base. TBF Jul 2012 #131

Tax breaks for the wealthy nationwide-rampant and unchecked............ socialist_n_TN Jul 2012 #132

Scranton's problems did not originate in Scranton PETRUS Jul 2012 #125

Poor OrgExp Jul 2012 #129

What you said. PETRUS Jul 2012 #130

How about increasing revenue? Yeah, I mean taxes. Many municipalities, and states, cut taxes pinto Jul 2012 #133

the gropenator tried to do this to california state employees shanti Jul 2012 #127

Apparently the parking authority is sitting on a spare million and still asked for a bailout. HiPointDem Jul 2012 #136

Interesting - thank you for the update on this! nt TBF Jul 2012 #137