General Discussion

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)

121. That's not the case in Scandinavia and a lot of other places.

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 05:53 PM

Jul 2017

There are a lot of progressive coalitions in Europe, especially on the level of municipal governance.

If it's the choice between trying to force all progressives into ONE party with a bland message or having a variety of parties that speak more specifically to issues during campaigns and then find common ground afterwards, I go with the second.

First-past-the-post(the system we use here for every election other than the presidential race)is always biased towards the Right, because it's usually far easier for the Right to cohere in one large party.

It's why Margaret Thatcher was able to essentially destroy workers' rights and the social welfare system in the UK, even though her party never won more than 43% in any general election.

Within the next week or so, a progressive coalition government(the New Democrats and the Greens)is going to take power in the Canadian province of British Columbia. It is pledged to a transformational program and the introduction of pr in future elections. Watch to see what happens there

I'd recommend you go to these sites to monitor developments there:

https://thetyee.ca/

http://www.straight.com/

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There are better ways to stop third-party presidential voting- [View all] Ken Burch Jul 2017 OP

Why do you start defining position with "besides screaming at people"? Eom pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #1

Good point. I've changed that line now. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #3

Maybe multiple threads calling out why the attacks on the Democratic Party is hurting us. pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #9

A vote for Nader was a vote for bush and a vote for Stein was a vote for Trump Gothmog Jul 2017 #36

well, if the shoe fits... nt TheFrenchRazor Jul 2017 #20

I think we could put punitive taxes on hard alcohol to curry favor with Prohibitionists... brooklynite Jul 2017 #2

As far as I know, they haven't flipped any states aganist us. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #4

How close to the Green Party's purity standard do we need to get? brooklynite Jul 2017 #5

The proposals I laid out in the OP don't force us into that. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #10

1. Coalition politics don't exist in the United States... brooklynite Jul 2017 #17

We haven't had the mechanism for coalition politics in this country. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #25

Yes having ten or more parties works so well for Italy and Israel Gothmog Jul 2017 #66

Sweden and Norway do well with a dozen parties each. New Zealand does well with seven. LanternWaste Jul 2017 #79

This may work in a parliamentary system but the US has an elected POTUS Gothmog Jul 2017 #88

Israel and Italy are exceptions. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #90

How will your proposal get third party voters to not vote for a third party candidate Gothmog Jul 2017 #93

They would do so by giving them an outlet other than voting for a presidential candidate. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #94

If they won't vote for a Dem president now kcr Jul 2017 #96

There is a great deal of magical thinking involved in Ken's proposal Gothmog Jul 2017 #98

Do you really believe this? Gothmog Jul 2017 #97

I live in the real world. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #106

And yet your posts speak for themselves Gothmog Jul 2017 #132

That is simply not true. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #136

Ken-how will your rather sad proposals work in the real world? Gothmog Jul 2017 #137

Every meaningful change that ever happened in tis country was originally said to be unworkable Ken Burch Jul 2017 #138

Post removed Post removed Jul 2017 #139

Terribly unfortunate when one side of a debate gets silenced. George II Jul 2017 #141

No one? LovesPNW Aug 2017 #151

Did Ken kick your puppy or something ? KTM Jul 2017 #107

Ken's posts speak for themselves Gothmog Jul 2017 #133

Yes, I've seen how you "know all that you need to know" about Ken KTM Jul 2017 #147

Did you read Ken's silly OP? Gothmog Jul 2017 #134

What is silly is assuming that we can stop third-party presidential voting by berating people for it Ken Burch Jul 2017 #140

Hacking ? Internet ? What are you on about ? KTM Jul 2017 #142

What about the UK...minority conservative rule for years. Multiple parties won't Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #115

That is because the UK has the first-past-the-post system Ken Burch Jul 2017 #119

I believe multiple parties mean minority rule usually conservative rule. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #120

That's not the case in Scandinavia and a lot of other places. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #121

Scandinavia has cut benefits lately and if you were addicted to their mysteries as I am (and TV Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #123

It is a terrible idea. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #76

In most states that is Bettie Jul 2017 #80

That is untrue...in 08, we had it all. And we need to get to work and work within the system to Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #86

So, how do you propose to entirely eliminate third parties? Bettie Jul 2017 #87

you can't eliminate stupidity...those who support third parties in a two party system are stupid... Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #116

Winning elections. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #91

Well, if you have a magic wand to make that suddenly happen Bettie Jul 2017 #102

We have to keep trying...and in order to end the gerrymander win states. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #103

Given that we are not winning Bettie Jul 2017 #105

If you are going for state elections which we need to do...you need to Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #112

What we have now can only lead to constant conservative rule. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #89

I disagree. And the non-rich can't win elections in the age of United no matter what. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #117

Sure they do. DFW Jul 2017 #135

YES they did...you want to show caring for third parties I don't get it, but whatever... Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #55

Strange but prohibition was a plank in the old Progressive movement from the Jim Beard Jul 2017 #16

True. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #26

I agree. It's better to stop third-party voting. MineralMan Jul 2017 #6

We can't just make third-party voting totally stop. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #14

There is a whole branch of the law on Ballot Access Gothmog Jul 2017 #37

So, do you propose to make third parties illegal? Bettie Jul 2017 #84

Of course not. I'd like people to stop voting for third parties MineralMan Jul 2017 #85

Fix your title maxsolomon Jul 2017 #7

Done. Thanks for catching that. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #12

There's already a bill in the House (sponsored by a Democrat) for PR and IRV. DanTex Jul 2017 #8

You don't have to win over Stein...just make common cause with some of her voters. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #11

Do you really believe that this work in the real world? Gothmog Jul 2017 #38

There's actually precedent for it working. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #49

No-do you really believe that there is any chance in the real world that these proposal would pass? Gothmog Jul 2017 #64

Let's see NEVER and NEVER! nt Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #56

These concepts have no chance of being adopted in the real world Gothmog Jul 2017 #67

When hell freezes...I have nothing to say to people who elected Donald Trump who pretend to be Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #77

This is a hail mary type plan to fight gerrymandering. Gothmog Jul 2017 #39

Independent redistricting alone Bettie Jul 2017 #82

And will go exactly nowhere. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #118

then you missing how IRV works. Voltaire2 Jul 2017 #129

So #1 is sort of a coalition government at state level? ProudLib72 Jul 2017 #13

Actually yes. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #15

I like it ProudLib72 Jul 2017 #19

I believe this to be a highly inaccurate statement. NCTraveler Jul 2017 #18

Is there anything I could EVER post on this board that you won't automatically oppose? Ken Burch Jul 2017 #24

My point is spot on. NCTraveler Jul 2017 #30

I didn't realize you had recommended any of them. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #31

This reply makes little to no sense. NCTraveler Jul 2017 #34

There WHAT is? Ken Burch Jul 2017 #41

Now you are going straight to Bernie/Clinton. NCTraveler Jul 2017 #42

I have never refought. Not once. I accepted HRC as the nominee and that put that to rest. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #44

Yeah. NCTraveler Jul 2017 #45

Yeah, indeed. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #46

Your reply here is the status quo... NCTraveler Jul 2017 #47

It's not refighting the primaries just to say those names, for God's sakes. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #48

This is an intentional distortion of what is being said. KTM Jul 2017 #108

Not even close. NCTraveler Jul 2017 #114

Sure feels like you just called me a liar there... KTM Jul 2017 #122

Incorrect outside of the first part. NCTraveler Jul 2017 #124

Hmmm KTM Jul 2017 #143

Green riffraff and our revolution won't support us...they are green riffraff because they Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #57

The Greenies and the JPR types hate the Democratic Party and will never help Gothmog Jul 2017 #68

Oh yeah, the same is true by 'our revolution' which exists to bring the Democratic Party down. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #74

agreed; so many dems act as if they are *entitled* to all left-of-center votes, instead of actually TheFrenchRazor Jul 2017 #21

No Democratic candidate has ever said they were 'entitled' to left-of-center votes emulatorloo Jul 2017 #22

The rules on this site...say support Democrats. There are plenty of other sites where you can go to Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #58

Since only those who voted for Hillary in the GE are welcome here, why does it matter if they are seaglass Jul 2017 #23

That's what I see: emotional, untrustworthy, selfish betsuni Jul 2017 #51

i agree, they can't be trusted and i question their views if they voted third party in 2016 JI7 Jul 2017 #53

+10000 Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #59

A vote for Stein was a vote for Trump Gothmog Jul 2017 #69

That cant possibly have come out as intended. KTM Jul 2017 #109

Read it for yourself, you can ask Skinner if he changed his mind. seaglass Jul 2017 #110

Hmm, forgot about that diatribe KTM Jul 2017 #111

I think it's clear as written NastyRiffraff Jul 2017 #144

Sew up that tent door KTM Jul 2017 #145

So you think that people who voted for a monster NastyRiffraff Jul 2017 #149

Those who didn't vote for Clinton aren't welcome here? David__77 Jul 2017 #126

Correct. seaglass Jul 2017 #128

OK, so those who didn't vote for Clinton aren't welcome. David__77 Jul 2017 #130

Right. I guess those who voted for Nader in 2000 or Reagan in 1984 but have since since the error of seaglass Jul 2017 #131

Your thread is a bit bogus. No one here admits R B Garr Jul 2017 #27

yes and those folks should go to other websites. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #60

The idiots on JPR would love the proposals in the OP but they hate the Democratic party Gothmog Jul 2017 #70

Yes it would...they seem to think multiple parties are somehow 'cool'. I had this discussion with Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #73

The BEST way to win voters, generally speaking Nevernose Jul 2017 #28

Thank you. Snackshack Jul 2017 #52

This would be a pretty good petition to start Tiggeroshii Jul 2017 #29

Ours has been, and for the foreseeable future will remain, a de facto two-party system. Act_of_Reparation Jul 2017 #32

IMO, 3rd party vote is an excuse for those that can't make a decision. CK_John Jul 2017 #33

Didn't third party voting affect Trump more than Clinton? MichMan Jul 2017 #35

That's not clear. Jim Lane Jul 2017 #50

Yes it did affect Democrats more. And Stein took a victory lap a few days ago...bet Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #61

MichMan and I are discussing the effect of Johnson's run. Jim Lane Jul 2017 #71

I do not believe Johnson affected Hillary Clinton. He may have affected down ballot candidates Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #72

Your statement about me and Trump is an absolute lie. Jim Lane Jul 2017 #92

That was not directed at you...it says... Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #99

Thanks for the clarification. I was reading your post as a response to mine. Jim Lane Jul 2017 #101

I have no idea about libertarians...they are worse than the GOP in some ways...as for Greens. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #104

Are you talking about registered 3rd party people or registered D & R's who voted 3rd party? nt fleabiscuit Aug 2017 #152

Most of the proposals in the OP confirms my firm opinion as to why I enjoy living in the real world Gothmog Jul 2017 #40

I've proved I live in the real world. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #43

Your posts speak for themselves Gothmog Jul 2017 #65

EXCELLENT reply. Excellent analysis from someone with real world experience... NurseJackie Jul 2017 #62

We don't make laws or have the power wasupaloopa Jul 2017 #54

Any 3rd Party Voters who Don't understand a "Binery Choice" are Doomed louis c Jul 2017 #63

That is how I feel. I read a poster who said she hated Greens with the power of 1000 burning suns.. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #75

They are people who have decided their egos BainsBane Jul 2017 #146

Who specifically is arguing that simply demanding people vote one way or another is effective? LanternWaste Jul 2017 #78

And after bending over backwards to do those four things Blue_Tires Jul 2017 #81

There is ALWAYS going to be "third party voting" ismnotwasm Jul 2017 #83

Exactly right. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #100

"Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good" lapucelle Jul 2017 #95

The things you suggest cannot happen. And it would be a bad idea to encourage third parties. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #113

I agree! How many elections must they fuck up for us before we start coddling them? Orrex Jul 2017 #125

What the US needs is a reform of the election-system and MORE THIRD PARTIES. DetlefK Jul 2017 #127

How exactly do you do this part... Lee-Lee Jul 2017 #148

This message was self-deleted by its author HopeAgain Aug 2017 #150