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JHan

(10,173 posts)
66. I would never twist Harris' words
Sun Jul 9, 2017, 11:59 AM
Jul 2017

I agree with him on some things but not all - I especially disagree with him on some shit he's been saying recently.

He gave this opinion in the immediate aftermath of the election when blaming "identity politics" was in vogue. Here Harris is guilty of " Pundit's fallacy" . If Clinton had won the Electoral College, he would still be complaining about the "regressive left". The essence of his arguments take the form of a morality play ( thanks to Jacob T Levy for that smart observation) where the people who didn't do what he wanted them to come to a tragic end - Gosh, if only they listened to him their fate could have been avoided! ..................... As we get more data more about the election, we learn that deplorable attitudes did play a part, so did voter suppression, so did Comey's letter, so did an over reliance on the meme that the Obama coalition ( which started to get shakey in 2012) was strong.. but there are no easy or neat explanations.

And you can't ignore History either.

Trump's rise coincides with the rise of a special brand of conservatism in America, which borrows from European far right ideas. Republicans used to run on some very simple themes , all related to each other, which activated their hive mind: the preservation of family though conservative social norms, protection of family, town, city and nation by a strong military, responsible fiscal management and nationalism - allegiance to "soil" and country.

With Brown v Board of Education and the Civil Rights movement , Dixiecrats felt alienated in a Democratic party that was increasingly becoming concerned with social justice issues and conservatives couldn't resist making a play for them. During FDR's presidency, Conservatives would frame anti-establishment, anti-liberal elite arguments against FDR's liberal policies and now the Civil Rights movement brought those arguments into focus - "How dare the federal government tell southern states what to do?"

Then in the 70's, Lee Atwater imprinted his style of politics on the Republican Party, using dog whistles and code words , all cloaked in ambiguity. Reagan adopted the same style. These dog whistles weren't called out much, rather their ambiguity was accepted and incorporated into legitimate political discourse.

Then came the fall of the Soviet Union, and the religious right squeezed their way into republican politics. It was still a tough time for conservatism in some respects. The post civil rights,post- modern Conservative movement was still forming itself, and Liberalism won the arguments on women's rights, racial equality, etc. By the time Bush Jr became President, Conservatism was a mix of inchoate ideas with no singular theme running through them: There was christian fundamentalism, concern about the national debt, anti abortion crusades, compassionate conservatism - an idea designed to appeal to non-white voters ( especially hispanics), low taxes, family values, anti-gay rhetoric etc etc. but no theme connecting these ideas together.

Then came 9/11. Conservatives couldn't have hoped for more potent symbolism in that tragedy. Islam became the new Soviet Union, and the antagonists in this tragedy were brown and Muslim to boot. Right wing radio and Fox News seized the moment and ran with it, thus was birthed the toxicity of right wing radio and right wing media.

The election of Obama after Bush was the icing on the cake for them in terms of the narratives they were selling. And the narratives became clear - goodbye Compassionate Conservatism, hello race politics. Gerrymandering districts to favor whites while Fox News brought up the flank with 24/7 coverage of black "thugs" and mexican immigrants taking advantage of white americans - "stealing" jobs, raping, murdering and bringing in drugs. On top of that, Anti Muslim hysteria, painting feminists as "crazy" "Corrupting" "feminazis" who were supposedly killing the family unit and corrupting society, and associating homosexuality with pedophilia. Social justice issues, for which Democrats were associated with, was demonized and Democrats viewed as terrorism enablers while Republicans were painted as the preservers of White Christian America.

Obama's election didn't thwart their efforts - he was called "weak" a "kenyan" "Muslim" "outsider". Congress Republicans got the memo and did their bit through obstructing Obama's agenda.

And how could Obama's message of Hope and governance by consensus survive in the realities of politics where the emergence of the Tea Party showed there was an appetite on the right for strong ideologues and an uncompromising stance on issues? Where pragmatists and ideologues were at loggerheads in both parties? The result of this was years of stuckism and gridlock.

No surprises then that people wanted "change". A sizeable portion of the electorate was primed and ready for Trump, some were despondent about politics in general, and some were disenfranchised. Trump was prepared to tap into resentments in a way no Republican presidential candidate dared to in decades.

... but by all means, blame Liberals.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Preach it! Absolutely right on target. K&R...n/t CaliforniaPeggy Jul 2017 #1
+1000 agree iluvtennis Jul 2017 #3
"...What I do want to hear, is how the hell we are going to stop this asshole..." duhneece Jul 2017 #45
One of these things is not like the others leftstreet Jul 2017 #2
I know a who was trying to find an alternative party- went to a Libertarian conf. And was horrified. kerry-is-my-prez Jul 2017 #43
In this election, NYResister Jul 2017 #53
Trump supporters own up to the mockery you've made of America... iluvtennis Jul 2017 #4
They are proud of him and think he's doing a great job, the job he promised he would do for THEM! BigmanPigman Jul 2017 #5
Mixed message here AFAIC.....but I get your drift. Dissent will be shouted down. pablo_marmol Jul 2017 #6
I believe that we are blameless. murielm99 Jul 2017 #7
Post removed Post removed Jul 2017 #14
So That Is The Only Thing You Took From The OP Me. Jul 2017 #15
That's all you are seeing in my post? murielm99 Jul 2017 #41
Because she still had to win over Sanders supporters, some of whom went onto not vote Dem. kerry-is-my-prez Jul 2017 #44
Please we can do it Jul 2017 #50
We hear the claims to be honest about what went wrong then ignore all the many events that gave us pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #16
"I believe that we are blameless." pablo_marmol Jul 2017 #19
"This. This right here. " pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #23
Same here. we can do it Jul 2017 #49
Good stuff. I'd add a concerted, well-funded effort to expose and stop repug cheating brush Jul 2017 #51
+1 betsuni Jul 2017 #56
Your suspicions are wrong. NYResister Jul 2017 #52
Bravo! smirkymonkey Jul 2017 #8
"How the Hell this asshole won"?? annabanana Jul 2017 #9
All eyes should be on the prize for 2018. sheshe2 Jul 2017 #10
Exactly right NastyRiffraff Jul 2017 #11
Another poster was kind enough to take the time to list all the events out, though I am sure they pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #17
What It Will Take IMHO Me. Jul 2017 #20
Here is the thing. We do not have the media. They actively redefine what Democrats say, pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #22
We Also Need Muscle Me. Jul 2017 #26
Another issue Democrats have that is just a reality. Unlevel playing field. pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #27
They Get Away With It Because Me. Jul 2017 #30
A point. I am on a Democratic board, supporting our Democratic party. pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #36
+1 hamsterjill Jul 2017 #38
Good observation, pirateshipdude. brer cat Jul 2017 #46
You mean Dems actually growing a spine???!!! hamsterjill Jul 2017 #31
Good Way To Put It Me. Jul 2017 #34
I hear them speaking up all over the place. Can you be more specific about the spine you demand? Eom pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #35
An example... hamsterjill Jul 2017 #37
I hear Waters speaking this way. Others too. pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #39
Yes, you're right as to Waters. hamsterjill Jul 2017 #42
How About 'You Lie" For A Response Me. Jul 2017 #40
I couldn't agree more. k&r DesertRat Jul 2017 #12
First priority: stop fascism. We can squabble amongst ourselves AFTER KingCharlemagne Jul 2017 #13
Ya? After, I still prefer not to squabble. What a waste of time and energy. Eom pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #18
Dont get me wrong. I like a good collegial squabble as much as the next KingCharlemagne Jul 2017 #24
I totally agree. Eom. pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #25
Thank you. hamsterjill Jul 2017 #32
"We didn't elect this asshole." pablo_marmol Jul 2017 #21
Sam Harris' words on race, Islam, guns, etc., are twisted. This is a joke, right? Hoyt Jul 2017 #33
Why am I not surprised that you brazenly lie about Harris........ pablo_marmol Jul 2017 #83
I am not surprised one gun fancier thinks like another gunner. Hoyt Jul 2017 #85
So you've stopped in here twice to shit on my thread? NYResister Jul 2017 #54
You obviously don't know sh*t about Sam Harris. pablo_marmol Jul 2017 #65
That is a convenient way of wrapping the conversation up in isolation. pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #71
I would never twist Harris' words JHan Jul 2017 #66
Thanks for the lesson in political history. :-/ pablo_marmol Jul 2017 #84
Tribalism is the problem... JHan Jul 2017 #86
In the final analysis, I think most political debate is calisthenics to no avail. pablo_marmol Jul 2017 #87
careful with deepstate narratives. JHan Jul 2017 #88
".....most of it is ridiculous." pablo_marmol Jul 2017 #89
Yes, I'm familiar with it.. JHan Jul 2017 #90
Strong post......no arguments with any of this. pablo_marmol Jul 2017 #91
i agree with him kinda on that.. JHan Jul 2017 #92
Thanks for the link....... pablo_marmol Jul 2017 #94
You're right we do need the help, massive help, from non-D party lefties and left leaners. aikoaiko Jul 2017 #28
What are we suppose to do aikoaiko? Accept their false narrative, quietly, appeasing for a vote? pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #29
You ask a good question, but follow it with unhelpful presumptions aikoaiko Jul 2017 #59
False narrative, non-truth. "I agree that the parties aren't the same" pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #60
Hyperbole and stereotypes make the base to many people's, perhaps even you aikoaiko Jul 2017 #61
I really disagree. Too many were saying that. Too many. pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #62
I remember Bernie saying it was better to vote for D over any R aikoaiko Jul 2017 #63
That was not good enough. That was insulting to all of us Democrats. pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #69
Again, who is us because I'm a Democrat and I was happy with what he said. aikoaiko Jul 2017 #72
Ok. Then you are insulting me also. That is why So many Democrats continually say they are pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #74
Because I'm a Democrat and have just as much say as you. aikoaiko Jul 2017 #76
Democratic Party is just like the Republican Party. pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #80
Here are some things where I think they are unhappy with the similarities aikoaiko Jul 2017 #81
We have responded. Everyone has responded. How many times has Clinton apologized for her vote. pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #82
You don't speak for all of 'us' melman Jul 2017 #77
Is it true both parties are the same? pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #79
What were they saying? NYResister Jul 2017 #64
That's what disenfranchisement looks like. aikoaiko Jul 2017 #67
Clinton did ask. Clinton did respond, repeatedly. At her detriment. pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #70
Then you keep talking, asking, listening, and responding. aikoaiko Jul 2017 #73
AT Clinton's detriment. You do not "keep" when it is clearly hurting. Eom pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #75
ITA, NYResister. brer cat Jul 2017 #47
K&R Gothmog Jul 2017 #48
Fucking eh right! Friend njhoneybadger Jul 2017 #55
K&R betsuni Jul 2017 #57
K & fucking R JHan Jul 2017 #58
Well said. H2O Man Jul 2017 #68
Infuriating too msdogi Jul 2017 #78
Well what do you know melman Jul 2017 #93
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