General Discussion

HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)

138. Yes, it very much is.

Mon Jul 24, 2017, 08:31 AM

Jul 2017

A straw man is a logical fallacy which occurs when a debater intentionally misrepresents their opponent's argument as a weaker version, and rebuts said version — rather than their opponent's genuine argument.

It is common to represent an opponent's position as being an extreme position -- eg, that pro-choicers think all abortions are acceptable, or that pro-lifers think no abortions are acceptable.

This exaggerated wage is being bandied about by libertarian and conservative extremists who think minimum wage should be abolished; which in turn is based on another hyper-assumptive argument that wealthy bosses will 100%, each and every time, pay their workers BETTER than the current buying power LOSS that $7.25 is.

My number would at least be $11 an hour. Correcting for inflation is not bad capitalism. Grossly underpaying your workers is.

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A nationwide $15 dollar minimum wage is harmful and dumb. We should advocate wage subsidies and UBI. [View all] Casprings Jul 2017 OP

Agree totally with this post exboyfil Jul 2017 #1

I agree with you. One size fits all doesn't work. bitterross Jul 2017 #2

Agreed on many fronts. The "Fight for 15" movement hurts our brand in many areas Lee-Lee Jul 2017 #3

Couldn't say it better myself, a lot of urban-bubble thinking in this thread Amishman Jul 2017 #140

You have to remember how far $31,200 Motownman78 Jul 2017 #189

That's the other half of the argument but makes the same point Amishman Jul 2017 #206

And that is my whole point- it's not the same fit. Lee-Lee Jul 2017 #219

Exactly. I know the bulk of the Democratic Party is in urban areas Lee-Lee Jul 2017 #214

Denmark does it successfully, along with most other social program goals Not Ruth Jul 2017 #4

Denmark has 5.7 million people with.... nycbos Jul 2017 #28

So a larger sample size than the centerpiece of the OP's argument -nt Bradical79 Jul 2017 #78

All this does is force low paying employers to WV Not Ruth Jul 2017 #5

low paying corporations use the 20 cent an hour prison slaves. America has millions of slaves Sunlei Jul 2017 #56

Hold your horses ... GeorgeGist Jul 2017 #6

There have been several criticisms of that study muriel_volestrangler Jul 2017 #7

You ease it in over several years DefenseLawyer Jul 2017 #8

There were two studies of the Seattle area. Voltaire2 Jul 2017 #9

I would not say scarp the min. wage Casprings Jul 2017 #14

$21.72 Lochloosa Jul 2017 #10

Likely true... but also not that important to the consequences of a $15 nationwide minimum wage NT Casprings Jul 2017 #13

This is the first thing that comes to mind for me too. panader0 Jul 2017 #89

The outlier study strikes again and influences the easily influenced Blue_Adept Jul 2017 #11

I never said ignore the problems Casprings Jul 2017 #12

Those "huge problems" have no empirical evidence to back them up. Exilednight Jul 2017 #15

While I won't do a lot review for you. simple question. why stop at $15? Why not a $40 or $60 rate? Casprings Jul 2017 #17

Ah, so that's what you're worried about leftstreet Jul 2017 #21

I know right! It's worked great in Venezuela. NT Casprings Jul 2017 #22

LOL n/t leftstreet Jul 2017 #23

Well, at least in the US as opposed to Venezuela....... socialist_n_TN Jul 2017 #157

Next thing you know people will be marrying cats and dogs. NCTraveler Jul 2017 #141

So much for honest debate. Exilednight Jul 2017 #24

This reminds me a lot BannonsLiver Jul 2017 #45

Cats and Dogs living together... NobodyHere Jul 2017 #49

Oh good. Strawmen. HughBeaumont Jul 2017 #125

No it isn't Casprings Jul 2017 #129

Yes, it very much is. HughBeaumont Jul 2017 #138

Avoiding relavent questions and talking on tangents Casprings Jul 2017 #144

That assumes profit should have a say in what's right for humanity. HughBeaumont Jul 2017 #146

Okay... how does one determine what the rate should? NT Casprings Jul 2017 #147

Did you not read the bold statement in the middle or are you just being wilfully ignorant? HughBeaumont Jul 2017 #149

Yes. Still does not answer the question. How does one determine what the rate should be? Casprings Jul 2017 #154

I believe the answer was a living wage.......... socialist_n_TN Jul 2017 #160

Completely does. You're being willfully obtuse. HughBeaumont Jul 2017 #169

No I am not. How much does a person need to live on? How do you determine that?Does that rate vary? Casprings Jul 2017 #170

That is easy Motownman78 Jul 2017 #193

So you are suggesting a rate of 7.77 in WV and 14.66 in Nashville... far enough, but which.. Casprings Jul 2017 #199

No national rate Motownman78 Jul 2017 #200

Actually, make the idea I had national law n/t Motownman78 Jul 2017 #201

So you are saying totally get rid of what we know as the min. wage. Seems a little unpopular... Casprings Jul 2017 #203

How about whatever supports the workers who help their business? kcr Jul 2017 #150

How does one determine the rate? NT Casprings Jul 2017 #153

You do realize that things cost money? That poverty is a real thing? NT NT NT NT NT kcr Jul 2017 #175

Yes. NT Casprings Jul 2017 #177

Well, then. There's your answer. kcr Jul 2017 #180

You still avoid the question Casprings Jul 2017 #184

I'm not avoiding the question kcr Jul 2017 #186

I don't disagree you shouldn't have one rate.. Casprings Jul 2017 #187

There really aren't many other studies of such a high level increase mythology Jul 2017 #44

Yes.. I would agree. NT Casprings Jul 2017 #47

I think Henry Ford did it? Sunlei Jul 2017 #57

Even this UW study says the $11 wage seemed positive sharedvalues Jul 2017 #109

Thank you! That study chose to look at only one segment of an economy that, as a whole, is Squinch Jul 2017 #76

I agree generally, but that poorly designed study in Seattle doesn't prove anything. It failed to pnwmom Jul 2017 #16

I believe they account for that. Read the study last week.. Casprings Jul 2017 #18

They didn't account for 40% of employees. That in itself is enough to throw the whole study pnwmom Jul 2017 #19

But you are talking about the 40 percent that are getting 1040s versus W2s Casprings Jul 2017 #20

Of course it affects the results not to include a whole group of employees who comprise pnwmom Jul 2017 #25

Why? What is different regarding the population and why can't you correct for it? Casprings Jul 2017 #26

Have you read this critique? pnwmom Jul 2017 #27

Are their problems with all studies? Yes.. but this looks pretty reasonable to me Casprings Jul 2017 #33

Leaving out 40% of the employees, including ones who work at employers such as Nordstrom, pnwmom Jul 2017 #36

Wow! A liberal think tanks hits on that issues and says to dis-regard the study based on that.. Casprings Jul 2017 #39

You would need to prove that excluding 40% of workers doesn't invalidate the study. When a study pnwmom Jul 2017 #41

The Berkeley study is looking at the at the restaurant industry Casprings Jul 2017 #46

I don't think the $15 would work equally well in large cities like Seattle and in small, rural towns pnwmom Jul 2017 #116

It does say something.. Casprings Jul 2017 #119

No, it doesn't even say something reliable about the subset it studied. For example, it counted pnwmom Jul 2017 #161

Pnwmom counters with facts and data and you attribute that to emotion "upset" and "happy." suffragette Jul 2017 #179

You noticed that too, huh? Squinch Jul 2017 #205

Yes, that tactic jumps right out, doesn't it? suffragette Jul 2017 #210

That study justified their choice as a sector that is highly sensitive to changes in the min wage. Voltaire2 Jul 2017 #207

It is the JOB of OUR Congress to raise the Federal minimum wage-$7.25 today. States must match the Sunlei Jul 2017 #29

Well congress should also outlaw states from banning city increases nt Casprings Jul 2017 #110

states can give a generous holiday bonus to make up the difference if they really wanted to pay well Sunlei Jul 2017 #124

I doubt it would hurt economic growth if companies didn't have other US alternatives, and I'd like JCanete Jul 2017 #30

I would support a $15 minimum wage. David__77 Jul 2017 #31

$15 an hour is about 25 cents a minute. when you pay an employee to sweep, clean, flip burgers for Sunlei Jul 2017 #32

But if every job pays at least that much, the incentive doesn't exactly work that way mythology Jul 2017 #53

I've managed people who started at $10 and worked up to much higher wages. people work hard to Sunlei Jul 2017 #55

If every job pays well why do a better job? ileus Jul 2017 #59

because people don't want to lose a job by fucking off, stealing or standing around. They get fired Sunlei Jul 2017 #60

None of that will happen...not a $15.00 minimum nor wage subsidies. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #34

If minimum wage went to 15? Watchfoxheadexplodes Jul 2017 #35

They would be earning 15/hr NobodyHere Jul 2017 #51

A business that can't pay a comfortable living wage doesn't deserve to exist. hunter Jul 2017 #37

I will let every local business in my hometown know that. NT Casprings Jul 2017 #40

You didn't like what I said, so you NT'd it. hunter Jul 2017 #43

1. In an environment of a $15 rate, all you will have is Walmart. They aren't going anywhere Casprings Jul 2017 #48

the 'guy living on the corner' isn't really a part of the ready to work & be hired goup of average Sunlei Jul 2017 #61

Walmart was unable to survive in Germany. The certainly *did* go somewhere. hunter Jul 2017 #65

My home town is 60 percent African American Casprings Jul 2017 #67

I'm a minority white guy in my town. hunter Jul 2017 #79

That won't happen, but assuming it did, I have a question Bradical79 Jul 2017 #86

Because there will be less of those jobs so it is likely you just won't be working. NT Casprings Jul 2017 #88

Actually you won't have Walmart as they won't pay that rate. Voltaire2 Jul 2017 #208

People will never go for universal income...it won't happen...and promoting it hurts us. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #71

Who is "us?" hunter Jul 2017 #83

Democrats...I do not think it will ever happen and will allow the GOP to paint Dems are desiring Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #191

I know I'm fringe. I think human "work ethics" are destroying this world. hunter Jul 2017 #196

Your views are interesting. I don't agree with them completely. However, the country will never Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #216

Barrack Obama and Jerry Brown won elections and they are very competent politicians. hunter Jul 2017 #220

Why? UBI is a perfectly workable policy that would be extremely popular once in place... Casprings Jul 2017 #100

It will never be put in place. It will be viewed as welfare for lazy people...yeah I know it is not Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #190

that would mean more power for the wealthy as most small businesses will disappear JI7 Jul 2017 #115

How? Why would small businesses disappear? hunter Jul 2017 #152

then no new business deserves to start up treestar Jul 2017 #148

Where did I say that? hunter Jul 2017 #151

The ACA does treestar Jul 2017 #212

Yes! That is absolutely the point Casprings Jul 2017 #215

That's what the greedy corporate executives want you to believe... Trial_By_Fire Jul 2017 #38

The tax system is a better way to deal with this problem, IMHO Casprings Jul 2017 #50

I agree the 15 minimum wage hurts Democrats taught_me_patience Jul 2017 #42

Short term maybe, long term, more customers for you Not Ruth Jul 2017 #52

Every pro-worker initiative in the past 150 years has been predicted to kill the company Orrex Jul 2017 #54

Exactly! Phoenix61 Jul 2017 #63

Raise it taxes on high income, from all sources Casprings Jul 2017 #68

+1 Great post! octoberlib Jul 2017 #87

Not just those major things you pointed out NewJeffCT Jul 2017 #137

Absolutely correct! Orrex Jul 2017 #164

True NewJeffCT Jul 2017 #174

It is so blindingly obvious. alarimer Jul 2017 #139

Yes, the UBI is totally in the middle NT Casprings Jul 2017 #143

Here's the practical problem with the UBI Orrex Jul 2017 #163

I am not against increasing the min. wage.. Casprings Jul 2017 #165

Great. Then $15/hour is a terrific place to start. Orrex Jul 2017 #194

How high? How do we determine the rate? Casprings Jul 2017 #197

$15 is good for a federally-mandated baseline... Orrex Jul 2017 #204

thanks for the straight talk, counter to the swill of the o.p. KG Jul 2017 #181

:thumbsup: Orrex Jul 2017 #195

Thanks! Casprings Jul 2017 #198

Still not everything should be put on the employer treestar Jul 2017 #213

Definitely tax the rich. Orrex Jul 2017 #217

15 will work if we can get every position controlled by a central government. ileus Jul 2017 #58

No thank you NobodyHere Jul 2017 #70

Take the time to read this TexasBushwhacker Jul 2017 #62

One alternative to the minimum wage moondust Jul 2017 #64

I would note that most of this thread doesn't address the solution I am suggesting Casprings Jul 2017 #66

It won't happen. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #72

It's not just about will here Bradical79 Jul 2017 #84

Find me a study that shows an increase of this size won't have negative consequences.. NT Casprings Jul 2017 #94

Honestly, I understand what you mean. But I am way more interested in winning the next election. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #192

I would note that you haven't actually provided any evidence that Exilednight Jul 2017 #80

Why address your solution? Bradical79 Jul 2017 #82

You're trying to have it both ways here metalbot Jul 2017 #85

You can set different amounts for different areas.. Casprings Jul 2017 #93

A phased in $15 minumum wage WILL work, and is not "Dumb". mackdaddy Jul 2017 #69

Disagree rock Jul 2017 #73

As long as our value as humans is tied to a "minimum wage" we are merely slaves. yallerdawg Jul 2017 #74

So how much would the UBI be? NobodyHere Jul 2017 #75

You have to think how to structure it first Casprings Jul 2017 #81

By "the whole country isn't San Francisco" I assume you mean that the whole country Squinch Jul 2017 #77

Replace the phrase "high standard or living" with "unaffordable cost of living" MichMan Jul 2017 #92

Yes, but I think the poster's point that I was responding to was that everywhere doesn't need a Squinch Jul 2017 #95

Seattle had a booming economy.. which is why a $15 wage is basically fine.. Casprings Jul 2017 #102

Actually it didn't. And if you read the article you will see that the increased minimum Squinch Jul 2017 #104

And also with UBI, you must be careful mvd Jul 2017 #120

I think, given the whacked distribution of wealth in this country and the strong trends for that Squinch Jul 2017 #122

In a polarized political environment.. it the same fight Casprings Jul 2017 #134

Mentally for the average voter, it's not even close. Squinch Jul 2017 #166

Hopefully the UBI would be made livable when things like.. mvd Jul 2017 #171

Once in place, it helps everyone. Employed and unemployed. That will be popular Casprings Jul 2017 #172

I agree there mvd Jul 2017 #173

Depends on the size.. Casprings Jul 2017 #132

Yeah, San Franciso.. where you can feel good, be liberal, and keep the poor out by not allowing.. Casprings Jul 2017 #101

Yes, you could do that. You could also institute a $15 minimum wage. Why one and not the other? Squinch Jul 2017 #105

In San Fran, a $15 minimum wage makes a lot of sense.. Casprings Jul 2017 #108

A hike in the minimum wage - a large hike - makes sense everywhere. Squinch Jul 2017 #118

venezuela does large hikes all the time Casprings Jul 2017 #121

Well gosh! That means we NEVER should! ... except it doesn't mean that at all. Squinch Jul 2017 #123

No it means that economic conditions matter Casprings Jul 2017 #130

Wow. Really? Who'd a thunk? Squinch Jul 2017 #168

Why is a UBI better than ensuring a fairer pay rate for spooky3 Jul 2017 #90

You would want Casprings Jul 2017 #91

That doesn't answer the question. How is a UBI better than a living minimum wage? Squinch Jul 2017 #96

You are redistributing wealth versus putting the cost on.. Casprings Jul 2017 #97

That's a valid point. But the US will not pass a UBI any time soon, and poor people need something Squinch Jul 2017 #103

The fight for the UBI is the same as the one for a $15 min. wage. Same forces for and same against. Casprings Jul 2017 #107

It's not the same fight. The fight for UBI requires a change of mindset that we are not going Squinch Jul 2017 #117

It depends on how you define "small business." Many "small business owners" make a lot more money spooky3 Jul 2017 #202

For one thing, UBI works for underskilled whose jobs will be automated. Hoyt Jul 2017 #106

This is how to do it jmowreader Jul 2017 #98

Or just put it around $10 dollars, index it to inflation and outlaw states from banning cities from Casprings Jul 2017 #99

Hanauer article is a good counter-point sharedvalues Jul 2017 #111

Yes I agree Casprings Jul 2017 #112

OK. $11 wage plus taxes/redistribution. Maybe index wage to local median income. sharedvalues Jul 2017 #113

$15 is needed everywhere krawhitham Jul 2017 #114

Thank you kcr Jul 2017 #126

The small business will not whine.. it will go away NT Casprings Jul 2017 #136

Oh well. Let them then. kcr Jul 2017 #145

You don't do business if you can't feed your family Casprings Jul 2017 #155

And their employees don't? kcr Jul 2017 #156

Good. hunter Jul 2017 #209

The minimum wage back in 1968, in 2016 dollars, was a little over $11 an hour. Kaleva Jul 2017 #127

Yes, and in today's dollars that was the highest it's ever been. Casprings Jul 2017 #128

The minimum wage back in the 60's, in today's dollars, was much higher then it is now Kaleva Jul 2017 #131

Yes, but $15 dollars is a lot higher then $11 Casprings Jul 2017 #133

I would argue bringing it up to $11 over the next few years. Kaleva Jul 2017 #142

It is a valid argument if you look at historic rates exboyfil Jul 2017 #183

Minimum wage should at least keep up with inflation. Kaleva Jul 2017 #185

There are some statements in your op that I don't agree with. NCTraveler Jul 2017 #135

A one-size-fits-all minimum wage doesn't make sense. Adrahil Jul 2017 #158

Yes, its too high some places and too low some other places.. Casprings Jul 2017 #167

Why is this a losing fight? If this were true, why should the rest of us care? kcr Jul 2017 #159

Policy nuance matters little when you make $11 an HR. JCMach1 Jul 2017 #162

You have my sympathy being stuck in adjunct hell. Adrahil Jul 2017 #178

0 FT jobs in the major metro area i live in JCMach1 Jul 2017 #188

I need 15 and hour to survive... Joe941 Jul 2017 #176

I lulz'd KG Jul 2017 #182

higher wages for all are needed. the 2% keeps reaping all the goodies, time to share. pansypoo53219 Jul 2017 #211

a UBI is an important conversation we need to start having as we approach greater automation Warren DeMontague Jul 2017 #218