General Discussion

Amishman

(5,911 posts)

140. Couldn't say it better myself, a lot of urban-bubble thinking in this thread

Mon Jul 24, 2017, 08:33 AM

Jul 2017

$15 an hour is $31200 annual for full time

That's more than the average person capital income in PA
That's close to the average household income in some counties

And this averages are very skewed. Chester county has a per capita income of $41.2k. Fayette county has a per capita income of $19k

Chester county businesses could probably absorb this over a couple years.

Fayette county businesses would probably need 20.

A lot of rural counties are low cost of living and low wage and would be the most impacted. They also tend to have the highest unemployment rates. (Fayette for example has 7%, double that of Chester county).

Implementation would have to be slow with potentially major public assistance to businesses in harder hit areas.

A better approach than a flat minimum wage would be to have a floating minimum wage based on the median income in each individual county.

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A nationwide $15 dollar minimum wage is harmful and dumb. We should advocate wage subsidies and UBI. [View all] Casprings Jul 2017 OP

Agree totally with this post exboyfil Jul 2017 #1

I agree with you. One size fits all doesn't work. bitterross Jul 2017 #2

Agreed on many fronts. The "Fight for 15" movement hurts our brand in many areas Lee-Lee Jul 2017 #3

Couldn't say it better myself, a lot of urban-bubble thinking in this thread Amishman Jul 2017 #140

You have to remember how far $31,200 Motownman78 Jul 2017 #189

That's the other half of the argument but makes the same point Amishman Jul 2017 #206

And that is my whole point- it's not the same fit. Lee-Lee Jul 2017 #219

Exactly. I know the bulk of the Democratic Party is in urban areas Lee-Lee Jul 2017 #214

Denmark does it successfully, along with most other social program goals Not Ruth Jul 2017 #4

Denmark has 5.7 million people with.... nycbos Jul 2017 #28

So a larger sample size than the centerpiece of the OP's argument -nt Bradical79 Jul 2017 #78

All this does is force low paying employers to WV Not Ruth Jul 2017 #5

low paying corporations use the 20 cent an hour prison slaves. America has millions of slaves Sunlei Jul 2017 #56

Hold your horses ... GeorgeGist Jul 2017 #6

There have been several criticisms of that study muriel_volestrangler Jul 2017 #7

You ease it in over several years DefenseLawyer Jul 2017 #8

There were two studies of the Seattle area. Voltaire2 Jul 2017 #9

I would not say scarp the min. wage Casprings Jul 2017 #14

$21.72 Lochloosa Jul 2017 #10

Likely true... but also not that important to the consequences of a $15 nationwide minimum wage NT Casprings Jul 2017 #13

This is the first thing that comes to mind for me too. panader0 Jul 2017 #89

The outlier study strikes again and influences the easily influenced Blue_Adept Jul 2017 #11

I never said ignore the problems Casprings Jul 2017 #12

Those "huge problems" have no empirical evidence to back them up. Exilednight Jul 2017 #15

While I won't do a lot review for you. simple question. why stop at $15? Why not a $40 or $60 rate? Casprings Jul 2017 #17

Ah, so that's what you're worried about leftstreet Jul 2017 #21

I know right! It's worked great in Venezuela. NT Casprings Jul 2017 #22

LOL n/t leftstreet Jul 2017 #23

Well, at least in the US as opposed to Venezuela....... socialist_n_TN Jul 2017 #157

Next thing you know people will be marrying cats and dogs. NCTraveler Jul 2017 #141

So much for honest debate. Exilednight Jul 2017 #24

This reminds me a lot BannonsLiver Jul 2017 #45

Cats and Dogs living together... NobodyHere Jul 2017 #49

Oh good. Strawmen. HughBeaumont Jul 2017 #125

No it isn't Casprings Jul 2017 #129

Yes, it very much is. HughBeaumont Jul 2017 #138

Avoiding relavent questions and talking on tangents Casprings Jul 2017 #144

That assumes profit should have a say in what's right for humanity. HughBeaumont Jul 2017 #146

Okay... how does one determine what the rate should? NT Casprings Jul 2017 #147

Did you not read the bold statement in the middle or are you just being wilfully ignorant? HughBeaumont Jul 2017 #149

Yes. Still does not answer the question. How does one determine what the rate should be? Casprings Jul 2017 #154

I believe the answer was a living wage.......... socialist_n_TN Jul 2017 #160

Completely does. You're being willfully obtuse. HughBeaumont Jul 2017 #169

No I am not. How much does a person need to live on? How do you determine that?Does that rate vary? Casprings Jul 2017 #170

That is easy Motownman78 Jul 2017 #193

So you are suggesting a rate of 7.77 in WV and 14.66 in Nashville... far enough, but which.. Casprings Jul 2017 #199

No national rate Motownman78 Jul 2017 #200

Actually, make the idea I had national law n/t Motownman78 Jul 2017 #201

So you are saying totally get rid of what we know as the min. wage. Seems a little unpopular... Casprings Jul 2017 #203

How about whatever supports the workers who help their business? kcr Jul 2017 #150

How does one determine the rate? NT Casprings Jul 2017 #153

You do realize that things cost money? That poverty is a real thing? NT NT NT NT NT kcr Jul 2017 #175

Yes. NT Casprings Jul 2017 #177

Well, then. There's your answer. kcr Jul 2017 #180

You still avoid the question Casprings Jul 2017 #184

I'm not avoiding the question kcr Jul 2017 #186

I don't disagree you shouldn't have one rate.. Casprings Jul 2017 #187

There really aren't many other studies of such a high level increase mythology Jul 2017 #44

Yes.. I would agree. NT Casprings Jul 2017 #47

I think Henry Ford did it? Sunlei Jul 2017 #57

Even this UW study says the $11 wage seemed positive sharedvalues Jul 2017 #109

Thank you! That study chose to look at only one segment of an economy that, as a whole, is Squinch Jul 2017 #76

I agree generally, but that poorly designed study in Seattle doesn't prove anything. It failed to pnwmom Jul 2017 #16

I believe they account for that. Read the study last week.. Casprings Jul 2017 #18

They didn't account for 40% of employees. That in itself is enough to throw the whole study pnwmom Jul 2017 #19

But you are talking about the 40 percent that are getting 1040s versus W2s Casprings Jul 2017 #20

Of course it affects the results not to include a whole group of employees who comprise pnwmom Jul 2017 #25

Why? What is different regarding the population and why can't you correct for it? Casprings Jul 2017 #26

Have you read this critique? pnwmom Jul 2017 #27

Are their problems with all studies? Yes.. but this looks pretty reasonable to me Casprings Jul 2017 #33

Leaving out 40% of the employees, including ones who work at employers such as Nordstrom, pnwmom Jul 2017 #36

Wow! A liberal think tanks hits on that issues and says to dis-regard the study based on that.. Casprings Jul 2017 #39

You would need to prove that excluding 40% of workers doesn't invalidate the study. When a study pnwmom Jul 2017 #41

The Berkeley study is looking at the at the restaurant industry Casprings Jul 2017 #46

I don't think the $15 would work equally well in large cities like Seattle and in small, rural towns pnwmom Jul 2017 #116

It does say something.. Casprings Jul 2017 #119

No, it doesn't even say something reliable about the subset it studied. For example, it counted pnwmom Jul 2017 #161

Pnwmom counters with facts and data and you attribute that to emotion "upset" and "happy." suffragette Jul 2017 #179

You noticed that too, huh? Squinch Jul 2017 #205

Yes, that tactic jumps right out, doesn't it? suffragette Jul 2017 #210

That study justified their choice as a sector that is highly sensitive to changes in the min wage. Voltaire2 Jul 2017 #207

It is the JOB of OUR Congress to raise the Federal minimum wage-$7.25 today. States must match the Sunlei Jul 2017 #29

Well congress should also outlaw states from banning city increases nt Casprings Jul 2017 #110

states can give a generous holiday bonus to make up the difference if they really wanted to pay well Sunlei Jul 2017 #124

I doubt it would hurt economic growth if companies didn't have other US alternatives, and I'd like JCanete Jul 2017 #30

I would support a $15 minimum wage. David__77 Jul 2017 #31

$15 an hour is about 25 cents a minute. when you pay an employee to sweep, clean, flip burgers for Sunlei Jul 2017 #32

But if every job pays at least that much, the incentive doesn't exactly work that way mythology Jul 2017 #53

I've managed people who started at $10 and worked up to much higher wages. people work hard to Sunlei Jul 2017 #55

If every job pays well why do a better job? ileus Jul 2017 #59

because people don't want to lose a job by fucking off, stealing or standing around. They get fired Sunlei Jul 2017 #60

None of that will happen...not a $15.00 minimum nor wage subsidies. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #34

If minimum wage went to 15? Watchfoxheadexplodes Jul 2017 #35

They would be earning 15/hr NobodyHere Jul 2017 #51

A business that can't pay a comfortable living wage doesn't deserve to exist. hunter Jul 2017 #37

I will let every local business in my hometown know that. NT Casprings Jul 2017 #40

You didn't like what I said, so you NT'd it. hunter Jul 2017 #43

1. In an environment of a $15 rate, all you will have is Walmart. They aren't going anywhere Casprings Jul 2017 #48

the 'guy living on the corner' isn't really a part of the ready to work & be hired goup of average Sunlei Jul 2017 #61

Walmart was unable to survive in Germany. The certainly *did* go somewhere. hunter Jul 2017 #65

My home town is 60 percent African American Casprings Jul 2017 #67

I'm a minority white guy in my town. hunter Jul 2017 #79

That won't happen, but assuming it did, I have a question Bradical79 Jul 2017 #86

Because there will be less of those jobs so it is likely you just won't be working. NT Casprings Jul 2017 #88

Actually you won't have Walmart as they won't pay that rate. Voltaire2 Jul 2017 #208

People will never go for universal income...it won't happen...and promoting it hurts us. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #71

Who is "us?" hunter Jul 2017 #83

Democrats...I do not think it will ever happen and will allow the GOP to paint Dems are desiring Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #191

I know I'm fringe. I think human "work ethics" are destroying this world. hunter Jul 2017 #196

Your views are interesting. I don't agree with them completely. However, the country will never Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #216

Barrack Obama and Jerry Brown won elections and they are very competent politicians. hunter Jul 2017 #220

Why? UBI is a perfectly workable policy that would be extremely popular once in place... Casprings Jul 2017 #100

It will never be put in place. It will be viewed as welfare for lazy people...yeah I know it is not Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #190

that would mean more power for the wealthy as most small businesses will disappear JI7 Jul 2017 #115

How? Why would small businesses disappear? hunter Jul 2017 #152

then no new business deserves to start up treestar Jul 2017 #148

Where did I say that? hunter Jul 2017 #151

The ACA does treestar Jul 2017 #212

Yes! That is absolutely the point Casprings Jul 2017 #215

That's what the greedy corporate executives want you to believe... Trial_By_Fire Jul 2017 #38

The tax system is a better way to deal with this problem, IMHO Casprings Jul 2017 #50

I agree the 15 minimum wage hurts Democrats taught_me_patience Jul 2017 #42

Short term maybe, long term, more customers for you Not Ruth Jul 2017 #52

Every pro-worker initiative in the past 150 years has been predicted to kill the company Orrex Jul 2017 #54

Exactly! Phoenix61 Jul 2017 #63

Raise it taxes on high income, from all sources Casprings Jul 2017 #68

+1 Great post! octoberlib Jul 2017 #87

Not just those major things you pointed out NewJeffCT Jul 2017 #137

Absolutely correct! Orrex Jul 2017 #164

True NewJeffCT Jul 2017 #174

It is so blindingly obvious. alarimer Jul 2017 #139

Yes, the UBI is totally in the middle NT Casprings Jul 2017 #143

Here's the practical problem with the UBI Orrex Jul 2017 #163

I am not against increasing the min. wage.. Casprings Jul 2017 #165

Great. Then $15/hour is a terrific place to start. Orrex Jul 2017 #194

How high? How do we determine the rate? Casprings Jul 2017 #197

$15 is good for a federally-mandated baseline... Orrex Jul 2017 #204

thanks for the straight talk, counter to the swill of the o.p. KG Jul 2017 #181

:thumbsup: Orrex Jul 2017 #195

Thanks! Casprings Jul 2017 #198

Still not everything should be put on the employer treestar Jul 2017 #213

Definitely tax the rich. Orrex Jul 2017 #217

15 will work if we can get every position controlled by a central government. ileus Jul 2017 #58

No thank you NobodyHere Jul 2017 #70

Take the time to read this TexasBushwhacker Jul 2017 #62

One alternative to the minimum wage moondust Jul 2017 #64

I would note that most of this thread doesn't address the solution I am suggesting Casprings Jul 2017 #66

It won't happen. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #72

It's not just about will here Bradical79 Jul 2017 #84

Find me a study that shows an increase of this size won't have negative consequences.. NT Casprings Jul 2017 #94

Honestly, I understand what you mean. But I am way more interested in winning the next election. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #192

I would note that you haven't actually provided any evidence that Exilednight Jul 2017 #80

Why address your solution? Bradical79 Jul 2017 #82

You're trying to have it both ways here metalbot Jul 2017 #85

You can set different amounts for different areas.. Casprings Jul 2017 #93

A phased in $15 minumum wage WILL work, and is not "Dumb". mackdaddy Jul 2017 #69

Disagree rock Jul 2017 #73

As long as our value as humans is tied to a "minimum wage" we are merely slaves. yallerdawg Jul 2017 #74

So how much would the UBI be? NobodyHere Jul 2017 #75

You have to think how to structure it first Casprings Jul 2017 #81

By "the whole country isn't San Francisco" I assume you mean that the whole country Squinch Jul 2017 #77

Replace the phrase "high standard or living" with "unaffordable cost of living" MichMan Jul 2017 #92

Yes, but I think the poster's point that I was responding to was that everywhere doesn't need a Squinch Jul 2017 #95

Seattle had a booming economy.. which is why a $15 wage is basically fine.. Casprings Jul 2017 #102

Actually it didn't. And if you read the article you will see that the increased minimum Squinch Jul 2017 #104

And also with UBI, you must be careful mvd Jul 2017 #120

I think, given the whacked distribution of wealth in this country and the strong trends for that Squinch Jul 2017 #122

In a polarized political environment.. it the same fight Casprings Jul 2017 #134

Mentally for the average voter, it's not even close. Squinch Jul 2017 #166

Hopefully the UBI would be made livable when things like.. mvd Jul 2017 #171

Once in place, it helps everyone. Employed and unemployed. That will be popular Casprings Jul 2017 #172

I agree there mvd Jul 2017 #173

Depends on the size.. Casprings Jul 2017 #132

Yeah, San Franciso.. where you can feel good, be liberal, and keep the poor out by not allowing.. Casprings Jul 2017 #101

Yes, you could do that. You could also institute a $15 minimum wage. Why one and not the other? Squinch Jul 2017 #105

In San Fran, a $15 minimum wage makes a lot of sense.. Casprings Jul 2017 #108

A hike in the minimum wage - a large hike - makes sense everywhere. Squinch Jul 2017 #118

venezuela does large hikes all the time Casprings Jul 2017 #121

Well gosh! That means we NEVER should! ... except it doesn't mean that at all. Squinch Jul 2017 #123

No it means that economic conditions matter Casprings Jul 2017 #130

Wow. Really? Who'd a thunk? Squinch Jul 2017 #168

Why is a UBI better than ensuring a fairer pay rate for spooky3 Jul 2017 #90

You would want Casprings Jul 2017 #91

That doesn't answer the question. How is a UBI better than a living minimum wage? Squinch Jul 2017 #96

You are redistributing wealth versus putting the cost on.. Casprings Jul 2017 #97

That's a valid point. But the US will not pass a UBI any time soon, and poor people need something Squinch Jul 2017 #103

The fight for the UBI is the same as the one for a $15 min. wage. Same forces for and same against. Casprings Jul 2017 #107

It's not the same fight. The fight for UBI requires a change of mindset that we are not going Squinch Jul 2017 #117

It depends on how you define "small business." Many "small business owners" make a lot more money spooky3 Jul 2017 #202

For one thing, UBI works for underskilled whose jobs will be automated. Hoyt Jul 2017 #106

This is how to do it jmowreader Jul 2017 #98

Or just put it around $10 dollars, index it to inflation and outlaw states from banning cities from Casprings Jul 2017 #99

Hanauer article is a good counter-point sharedvalues Jul 2017 #111

Yes I agree Casprings Jul 2017 #112

OK. $11 wage plus taxes/redistribution. Maybe index wage to local median income. sharedvalues Jul 2017 #113

$15 is needed everywhere krawhitham Jul 2017 #114

Thank you kcr Jul 2017 #126

The small business will not whine.. it will go away NT Casprings Jul 2017 #136

Oh well. Let them then. kcr Jul 2017 #145

You don't do business if you can't feed your family Casprings Jul 2017 #155

And their employees don't? kcr Jul 2017 #156

Good. hunter Jul 2017 #209

The minimum wage back in 1968, in 2016 dollars, was a little over $11 an hour. Kaleva Jul 2017 #127

Yes, and in today's dollars that was the highest it's ever been. Casprings Jul 2017 #128

The minimum wage back in the 60's, in today's dollars, was much higher then it is now Kaleva Jul 2017 #131

Yes, but $15 dollars is a lot higher then $11 Casprings Jul 2017 #133

I would argue bringing it up to $11 over the next few years. Kaleva Jul 2017 #142

It is a valid argument if you look at historic rates exboyfil Jul 2017 #183

Minimum wage should at least keep up with inflation. Kaleva Jul 2017 #185

There are some statements in your op that I don't agree with. NCTraveler Jul 2017 #135

A one-size-fits-all minimum wage doesn't make sense. Adrahil Jul 2017 #158

Yes, its too high some places and too low some other places.. Casprings Jul 2017 #167

Why is this a losing fight? If this were true, why should the rest of us care? kcr Jul 2017 #159

Policy nuance matters little when you make $11 an HR. JCMach1 Jul 2017 #162

You have my sympathy being stuck in adjunct hell. Adrahil Jul 2017 #178

0 FT jobs in the major metro area i live in JCMach1 Jul 2017 #188

I need 15 and hour to survive... Joe941 Jul 2017 #176

I lulz'd KG Jul 2017 #182

higher wages for all are needed. the 2% keeps reaping all the goodies, time to share. pansypoo53219 Jul 2017 #211

a UBI is an important conversation we need to start having as we approach greater automation Warren DeMontague Jul 2017 #218