General Discussion

hughee99

(16,113 posts)

200. In my experience, people who complain about binary thinking are almost always trying to paper over

Mon Jul 24, 2017, 10:30 AM

Jul 2017

their own inconsistencies. As I've said already, I don't have a lot of faith in the popular vote, I see then for people who know more having a say in politics. What I haven't said is that caucuses are bad (which is what you're looking for). Okay, I'll say that now. It's an unnecessarily convoluted system for picking a candidate.

However, everyone who walks into the caucus is a "voter", none of them are forced to caucus for anyone against their will. You may not like the system, but all the people who show up are allowed to make their own decisions, and if their candidate doesn't make it, they're free to do what they will. It's not a perfect system (or even a good system) for determining the will of the voters, but at least everyone there gets to have their say... as opposed to a system where a small group of people tell the voters their wrong, and have the power to overturn the outcome. A caucus is a bad way to determine the will of the voters, but superdelegates is a great way to disregard it. THAT'S the antithesis to the popular vote. If you think superdelegates are a good idea, you can't be putting your faith in the value of the popular vote.

I get what you're saying, I just don't agree with you, and don't think you'll be able to convince me I'm wrong. I guess I will simply put it this way... I know you don't like caucuses, when you object to them, use an argument other than "they're the antithesis to the popular vote" because that's not your real problem with them, and you don't put much stock in the popular vote anyway.

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Can we give decent burial to the meme that Bernie Sanders didn't appeal to black voters. [View all] LongTomH Jul 2017 OP

Of course some supported Sanders but many more POCs supported Clinton brush Jul 2017 #1

Until the general election loyalsister Jul 2017 #17

Turnout was about the same as it was under John Kerry, which is impressive given that StevieM Jul 2017 #195

Southern primaries Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Jul 2017 #30

That was because Sanders was not even on the radar yet LiberalLovinLug Jul 2017 #38

"Why can't both Hillary AND Bernie be recognized for being supportive of the black community?" ehrnst Jul 2017 #47

I know that in Texas the Sanders message did not resonate with African American or Latino voters Gothmog Jul 2017 #55

You're half right, half wrong in your characterization of the camps. Jim Lane Jul 2017 #110

Yes, there is anger among supporters of HRC at Bernie ehrnst Jul 2017 #112

The anger at HRC was not fomented by Bernie. Jim Lane Jul 2017 #124

If we're going back to 2016..... ehrnst Jul 2017 #152

The view you're criticizing me for is the opposite of what I meant Jim Lane Jul 2017 #154

I think there is a danger in false equivalency. ehrnst Jul 2017 #158

This whole discussion is skirting dangerously close to re-fighting the primaries..... George II Jul 2017 #72

Yep. (nt) ehrnst Jul 2017 #113

"dangerously close". Not even close, fully immersed still_one Jul 2017 #177

Yes, I was being nice. Some just can't let it go. George II Jul 2017 #178

I know George still_one Jul 2017 #179

He was all over MSNBC (esp. Chris Hayes' show), CNN, Jamaal510 Jul 2017 #87

I believe Bernie got much less air time than HRC even after he started Akamai Jul 2017 #117

Liking Clinton better does NOT mean they did not like Sanders karynnj Jul 2017 #46

"A vote for Clinton can not be interpreted as a vote against Bernie." ehrnst Jul 2017 #48

I highly doubt that LiberalLovinLug Jul 2017 #99

Doubt all you like. It's been my experience. (nt) ehrnst Jul 2017 #116

but if bernie would have gotten his wish all american girl Jul 2017 #155

Good point. (nt) ehrnst Jul 2017 #156

This LiberalLovinLug Jul 2017 #100

I believe that Sanders supporters often believe that disagreeing with him ehrnst Jul 2017 #114

I think that many of the people who became Sanders supporters had long argued that most Republicans karynnj Jul 2017 #122

This! (nt) ehrnst Jul 2017 #197

Thank you. nikibatts Jul 2017 #140

I voted for Sen. Sanders in the Texas primary. TexasProgresive Jul 2017 #2

Thank you...wise words. n/t susanna Jul 2017 #106

Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2017 #166

Can we give a decent burial to refighting the primary? missingthebigdog Jul 2017 #3

IKR !?!!? uponit7771 Jul 2017 #5

Then why invest so much effort in attacking Bernie? LongTomH Jul 2017 #8

Agreed Arazi Jul 2017 #11

Kindly point out where I attacked Bernie. missingthebigdog Jul 2017 #12

not being a sacred cow kinda guy-- I see criticism rather than attacks. LanternWaste Jul 2017 #13

Some apparently see tepid criticism as a viscious attack emulatorloo Jul 2017 #33

Nobody "attacked" Bernie. You need to have your "Bernie Attack Alarm" recalibrated emulatorloo Jul 2017 #23

Commenting on Bernie's badmouthing the Democratic party is not "attacking." ehrnst Jul 2017 #49

I hear some "progressives" saying we need new, young blood in the D party. Eliot Rosewater Jul 2017 #52

I completey agree with you. I don't hate Bernie Sanders, but there was nothing good about 2016 Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #86

I am not a Bernie fan...but jeez, he is one guy...who cares? Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #85

+1 leftstreet Jul 2017 #10

No shit. BainsBane Jul 2017 #21

Didn't does not eqaul Doesn't ... nice try though uponit7771 Jul 2017 #4

I work at an HBCU, and Sanders wasn't even on the radar Blue_Tires Jul 2017 #6

Thank you. nt cwydro Jul 2017 #19

And we wouldn't see the People's Summit BainsBane Jul 2017 #22

Caucuses are the antithesis to the popular vote. (nt) ehrnst Jul 2017 #45

There are a ton of games that can be played in caucuses Gothmog Jul 2017 #57

I always thought Superdelegates were the antithesis to the popular vote. n/t hughee99 Jul 2017 #162

They are the antithesis to someone like Trump from getting the nomination. ehrnst Jul 2017 #167

No, she didn't explain it. You can argue that superdelegates serve a purpose, you can even argue hughee99 Jul 2017 #169

You could say that about the Iowa Caucuses. ehrnst Jul 2017 #171

You could say that about the caucuses too, but the superdelegate system is a much clearer example. hughee99 Jul 2017 #174

No, you're not right. ehrnst Jul 2017 #175

Actually, you're completely wrong. hughee99 Jul 2017 #183

Actually, you're not getting it at all. ehrnst Jul 2017 #186

Your inability to make your argument clear should be an indication that your argument might be wrong hughee99 Jul 2017 #189

Actually, your language choices keep making my point. ehrnst Jul 2017 #190

Ah, I see what's going on here. You're talking about something different that I am. hughee99 Jul 2017 #194

No, not arguing that at all. ehrnst Jul 2017 #196

It is clearer. hughee99 Jul 2017 #198

In caucuses, people who don't know more about the candidate or the process than the rest of voters ehrnst Jul 2017 #199

In my experience, people who complain about binary thinking are almost always trying to paper over hughee99 Jul 2017 #200

You don't agree with me. That's correct. ehrnst Jul 2017 #201

It's funny that you're pointing out my "binary world view"... hughee99 Jul 2017 #202

Now it appears that you haven't read my posts. ehrnst Jul 2017 #203

I've read all your posts. hughee99 Jul 2017 #204

Oh, so you're upset that people consider their endorsement ehrnst Jul 2017 #205

Again, I don't have an issue with the superdelegates, so why would I think someone who supports hughee99 Jul 2017 #206

I guess you got me. ehrnst Jul 2017 #208

How about this... hughee99 Jul 2017 #210

Nope. ehrnst Jul 2017 #211

You won't say that you don't trust the voters, but have argued that there are reasons hughee99 Jul 2017 #212

And yet you continue. ehrnst Jul 2017 #213

Yes, it was pretty clear as it was absurd. Presidential elections don't include caucuses in any lunamagica Jul 2017 #82

There is an agenda, and you aint part of it. Eliot Rosewater Jul 2017 #54

"You saw young black people" - WOW. This is how you choose to refight the primary? bettyellen Jul 2017 #7

Thanks for posting this nt riderinthestorm Jul 2017 #9

Yeah, Sanders' huge margins of victory in the Deep South primaries last year prove this point! LonePirate Jul 2017 #14

lulz obamanut2012 Jul 2017 #16

Which of those states that Hillary won in the DS primaries... WoonTars Jul 2017 #39

Silly me. I thought this thread was about Bernie's appeal to the pre-eminent Dem bloc in the South. LonePirate Jul 2017 #53

Which is why you brought up Hillarys performance in the DS WoonTars Jul 2017 #61

No, I brought up Bernie's performance in the Deep South. I never mentioned Hillary in my first post. LonePirate Jul 2017 #63

I stand corrected. You only inferred Hillary's performance. WoonTars Jul 2017 #64

This message was self-deleted by its author emulatorloo Jul 2017 #103

You are aware that primaries are only among the party, right? ehrnst Jul 2017 #115

That was precisely my point... WoonTars Jul 2017 #159

So those states shouldn't get a say in who the Dem candidate is? ehrnst Jul 2017 #176

Indeed. (nt) ehrnst Jul 2017 #51

just staaaaaahp obamanut2012 Jul 2017 #15

. NCTraveler Jul 2017 #18

"I have a friend" BainsBane Jul 2017 #26

LOL Gothmog Jul 2017 #75

I lol'd JHan Jul 2017 #67

That made me lose my coffee. Tarheel_Dem Jul 2017 #76

LOL!!! (nt) ehrnst Jul 2017 #168

Truth is he didn't at the time. rockfordfile Jul 2017 #20

A new survey isn't votes BainsBane Jul 2017 #24

Thanks, plain and simple. emulatorloo Jul 2017 #34

You don't get the Democratic nomination without the support of Black women. ehrnst Jul 2017 #44

When black voters have a choice between Bernie and kamala, who do you think they'll pick? La Lioness Priyanka Jul 2017 #25

Bernie's problems have grown since 2016 Fresh_Start Jul 2017 #27

I would have happily voted for him in 2016 if he won the primary La Lioness Priyanka Jul 2017 #28

Same here. (nt) ehrnst Jul 2017 #42

Correct. You are right on. Eom pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #59

You're comparing apples and oranges. Bernie didn't appeal to enough black DEMOCRATS pnwmom Jul 2017 #29

There's a huge difference between approving of someone during a poll and voting for them. SaschaHM Jul 2017 #31

That is so very true Gothmog Jul 2017 #58

Absolutely. It shouldn't be ignored, but that vote was in the context of the Clinton name being a JCanete Jul 2017 #66

Way off base. They are loyal to Obama and Sanders R B Garr Jul 2017 #101

they as one uniform block of people? I'm sure there were some people who aren't happy about JCanete Jul 2017 #108

Your first sentence was very predictable. Unless someone R B Garr Jul 2017 #120

I didn't say that. In fact I was very specific about neither of us knowing what his reception would JCanete Jul 2017 #128

Actually, we do know what his reception "would have been" because it R B Garr Jul 2017 #130

+1000 (nt) ehrnst Jul 2017 #149

But you said that you couldn't support any politician or party that ehrnst Jul 2017 #139

What I didn't say was that democrats weren't doing this. I did say that it takes criticism to make JCanete Jul 2017 #143

Ah yes. ehrnst Jul 2017 #148

I don't know what you mean. I don't have a problem with that criticism at all. I didn't weigh in on JCanete Jul 2017 #151

I'm sure there are some people who aren't happy about the statement lumping "black voters" into ehrnst Jul 2017 #144

Maybe I can explain it to both of you GaryCnf Jul 2017 #123

This message was self-deleted by its author R B Garr Jul 2017 #131

Thank you very much for your input on this subject. I just want to clarify what I was saying. JCanete Jul 2017 #150

He has dropped 12% in approval ratings (Morning Consult) in VT since last September. ehrnst Jul 2017 #141

news flash: black people are more liberal and Democratic-leaning that white people, on average geek tragedy Jul 2017 #32

Yeah, I don't know what this thread is all about Awsi Dooger Jul 2017 #107

This doesn't really say anything mythology Jul 2017 #35

Thank you ProfessorPlum Jul 2017 #36

I have no problem Backing a Democrat ... Cigar11 Jul 2017 #37

I have no problem backing a democratic party...that backs the people. That's kind of why, as JCanete Jul 2017 #69

Can you give an example of where the Democratic party didn't "back the people?" (nt) ehrnst Jul 2017 #119

Any time the Democratic party or its candidates are expedient, rather than truthful, or JCanete Jul 2017 #126

Expediency in politics.... ehrnst Jul 2017 #138

lul. stonecutter357 Jul 2017 #40

I don't think that it can be buried just yet. ehrnst Jul 2017 #41

Glad to see the O Shit Pot getting stirred Daily! Cryptoad Jul 2017 #43

If he runs again and gets the nomination, I'll support him MrScorpio Jul 2017 #50

If a kumquat runs and gets the nomination and has a D by it's name, gets my vote too. Eliot Rosewater Jul 2017 #56

One good way to bring the party together . . FairWinds Jul 2017 #60

How about quit insulting people? BainsBane Jul 2017 #62

Do these folks know that yet another of Conyers' bills is languishing in committee JHan Jul 2017 #77

+1000 nt brer cat Jul 2017 #96

Great post, as always! It's Conyers bill. For years. R B Garr Jul 2017 #102

gimmie a break - in what universe is . . FairWinds Jul 2017 #129

Why did you decide to leave that response to this OP? BainsBane Jul 2017 #133

What you said, BB Hekate Jul 2017 #137

Define "establishment Dems" please mcar Jul 2017 #94

PP. Ya, for real. And we are suppose to take that seriously. Eom pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #97

The "establishment dems" are the ones who we oppose . . FairWinds Jul 2017 #127

There's a Rahm, Rubin wing of the Democratic Party? mcar Jul 2017 #147

Bernie has abandoned "medicare for all or bust" ehrnst Jul 2017 #187

Since his response was to a post about AA voters BainsBane Jul 2017 #136

Sure is mcar Jul 2017 #145

Can you be more specific on what an "establishment Dem" is? ehrnst Jul 2017 #118

Why do so many on DU seem intent on denying . . FairWinds Jul 2017 #188

I think that you use "establishment" as a perjorative and not an actual description. ehrnst Jul 2017 #191

The more I think about you post BainsBane Jul 2017 #163

The NAACP also opposes charter schools . . FairWinds Jul 2017 #170

This thread is not about charter schools BainsBane Jul 2017 #180

Oh, you know Keith Ellison? FairWinds Jul 2017 #185

How about Florida ? Ya got Florida ? FairWinds Jul 2017 #193

Most of Europe uses multiple payers to achieve universal health care coverage ehrnst Jul 2017 #192

It's great blacks support liberals isn't it, but did you look at that poll? JHan Jul 2017 #65

this has been the week of white people telling black people La Lioness Priyanka Jul 2017 #68

I saw that...posted about it in AA group JHan Jul 2017 #70

oh man. sorry i missed it. yeah thread was epic. La Lioness Priyanka Jul 2017 #71

That's a totally valid point, and I personally neglected to look at the actual polling data, before JCanete Jul 2017 #73

It's interesting data ...from what I can see JHan Jul 2017 #74

At THIS site...? regnaD kciN Jul 2017 #78

In 2050 you guys will still be debating this stuff awesomerwb1 Jul 2017 #79

AMEN, I've been black most of my life and I LOVED Bernie...I HATE it when people The_REAL_Ecumenist Jul 2017 #80

I have to ask which part of your life was it where you Voltaire2 Jul 2017 #81

REALLY? It's a figure of speech, Voltaire.... The_REAL_Ecumenist Jul 2017 #83

OK just never heard it before. Voltaire2 Jul 2017 #88

Never heard that before. I've been fat white guy all of my life. Doubt anything about that is emulatorloo Jul 2017 #104

LOL! FUNNY! The_REAL_Ecumenist Jul 2017 #109

I had a full head of hair for much of my life, but THAT's changing. (n/t) Jim Lane Jul 2017 #111

EVERYONE needs to move forward... left-of-center2012 Jul 2017 #84

So yeah, nothing I can see in the poll data supports the slant taken by the blog... JHan Jul 2017 #89

Its incredibly insensitive ismnotwasm Jul 2017 #90

in this case ... JHan Jul 2017 #91

True that! ismnotwasm Jul 2017 #93

You nailed it. emulatorloo Jul 2017 #105

+1 uponit7771 Jul 2017 #125

... LexVegas Jul 2017 #92

Even if Sanders had won Motownman78 Jul 2017 #95

Post removed Post removed Jul 2017 #98

I was not going to add my comment to this thread GaryCnf Jul 2017 #121

Thanks again, I completely agree that social and economic justice are impossible to deal with JCanete Jul 2017 #153

Thank you too! GaryCnf Jul 2017 #157

Well written and argued . . FairWinds Jul 2017 #172

I still think that the Black woman who posted here explained her position and the R B Garr Jul 2017 #181

Hopefully I covered that GaryCnf Jul 2017 #182

Bernie didn't appeal at the time of the primaries. He might appeal more in April 2017. kwassa Jul 2017 #132

Turns out the author of the article BainsBane Jul 2017 #135

+1, yes, this just looks like an attempt to rewrite R B Garr Jul 2017 #142

Can we give a decent burial to relitigating the primary and proceed to the present day? The country Hekate Jul 2017 #134

Can we give decent burial to the 2016 Democratic primary? jmowreader Jul 2017 #146

Nope, not ever going to happen. stranger81 Jul 2017 #160

No. hunter Jul 2017 #161

Apparently, he did NOT appeal to black voters. Lil Missy Jul 2017 #164

Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2017 #165

Will do so gladly if posts about Bernie end. kstewart33 Jul 2017 #173

I know one person who doesn't believe it... yuiyoshida Jul 2017 #184

Can we give a decent burial to the divisive shit? we can do it Jul 2017 #207

Most Dems are gonna vote for the nominee. Orsino Jul 2017 #209

The accurate thing to say was that Sanders campaign was unsuccessful at winning the votes of POC. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #214