General Discussion

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)

60. You're missing the point

Thu Jul 12, 2012, 02:09 PM

Jul 2012

Vitamins and nutrition are important. Yes, we know. It's demonstrable. It's testable. It's possible to gather empirical proof. Personally, I wouldn't call a nutritional adviser a medical professional, any more than I would call the guy who gets raccoons out of your attic a raccoon whisperer, but at least they have evidence on their side.

But we're talking about the woo-woo shit here, pnwmom. Magnet bracelets, crystal therapy, homeopathy, aromatherapy, acupuncture, praying to angels, and chakra-tickling, stuff like that. Stuff that has no empirical evidence on its side, that has no demonstrable effect on health (or in the case of chiropractic therapy, a NEGATIVE effect). Stuff that is not medicine, that actually has a chance to result in more medical problems (for instance, the anti-vaccine bullshit) but that is nevertheless being subsidized by the taxpayer.

I personally have no problem paying for a pregnant lady's folic acid with my taxes. But I WILL have a problem with paying for her "Baby's first whalesong" CD that claims it will awaken her child's "inner glow" and make birth easier.

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Wonderful overlooked fact about Obamacare--it will curtail mandatory alternative medicine coverage! [View all] Godhumor Jul 2012 OP

That's a shame, MadHound Jul 2012 #1

I would love examples of medically necessary alternative medicine Godhumor Jul 2012 #2

Amen! Healing crystals do NOTHING for me LiberalLoner Jul 2012 #6

They do nothing for anybody, except the people who sell them. TheWraith Jul 2012 #79

but the same could be said of most western medicine Voice for Peace Jul 2012 #277

Well, I have proof that some crystals, when cut and polished properly, MineralMan Jul 2012 #140

Let me give you a little story on acupuncture "nonsense". Hell Hath No Fury Jul 2012 #8

And how do you think acupuncture worked? Godhumor Jul 2012 #29

Since you can't spell it, BlueToTheBone Jul 2012 #66

Oh, I'm sorry I should have typed Qi Godhumor Jul 2012 #72

No, the word you can't seem to spell BlueToTheBone Jul 2012 #194

Also he can't spell RELAXING uppityperson Jul 2012 #201

I don't know enough about... Sterling Jul 2012 #139

Source for your argument: " acupuncture fails the scietific process 100% of the time." emsimon33 Jul 2012 #264

I read one study that said pscot Jul 2012 #42

Uh, not exactly. Hell Hath No Fury Jul 2012 #68

chiropractic fixed my sciatica problem, when the ER didn't even get a fucking xray. pansypoo53219 Jul 2012 #63

Was it the same kind of scoliosis my friend has? NNN0LHI Jul 2012 #120

It depends on cause and how bad it is. My partner had a big curve and chiro & massage helped a lot. uppityperson Jul 2012 #127

Thank you for the information NNN0LHI Jul 2012 #131

It can help with muscle spasms, help them be less. Good luck to him uppityperson Jul 2012 #147

If your friend is so bad that surgery can not help MattBaggins Jul 2012 #223

What did you expect an xray to show? MattBaggins Jul 2012 #221

I had a similar experience with acupuncture emsimon33 Jul 2012 #263

very true, the sheep factor Voice for Peace Jul 2012 #278

Yet there are people who find real relief in both of those, MadHound Jul 2012 #9

Placebo effect is the placebo effect Godhumor Jul 2012 #22

It's plainly obvious you have no idea what you're talking about. underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #30

Good, show me my ignorance. Where is the scientific work showing acupuncture works Godhumor Jul 2012 #34

Show me proof of God. underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #35

What is wrong in asking for proof? ChazII Jul 2012 #44

Show me proof of God then. underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #53

Millions of people are delusional MattBaggins Jul 2012 #224

Note to self: HARK, I hear the sound of *crickets* underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #100

Why respond? Godhumor Jul 2012 #102

Proof has been posted #90 I was giving you a chance to catch up with the front of the class. underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #113

He already replied there but didn't address the proof. Did a red herring thing instead. You are so uppityperson Jul 2012 #117

As to be expected. underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #124

Willful ignorance and prejudice combine into an ugly mess. I like reading and learning also. uppityperson Jul 2012 #128

Yes. Daemonaquila Jul 2012 #188

Yes. Chan790 Jul 2012 #242

Are you a surgical instrument salesman? BlueToTheBone Jul 2012 #71

Nope. Godhumor Jul 2012 #159

Proof: MadHound Jul 2012 #90

GH and the lot of em don't give a rats behind underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #98

This post was alerted on: The jury voted 4/2 to let it stand. ohiosmith Jul 2012 #146

And in NCCAM you will see right there they state CAM has not met Godhumor Jul 2012 #101

No, what they actually say is this, MadHound Jul 2012 #109

The Maryland School of Integrated Medicine was your one study Godhumor Jul 2012 #126

How many studies will be an acceptable number for you? underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #167

clinical studies have shown time and time again, where the needle goes makes no difference Godhumor Jul 2012 #172

Is it a short article? underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #175

I would suggest statistics courses MattBaggins Jul 2012 #228

Yes NCAM studies MattBaggins Jul 2012 #226

Bastyr University does research on naturopathic medicine. pnwmom Jul 2012 #12

Serious question and naturopathy doesn't even belong in the discussion Godhumor Jul 2012 #18

My pediatrician would strongly disagree with you. She sent me to a naturopath pnwmom Jul 2012 #19

Naturopathy is largely quackery. Godhumor Jul 2012 #25

Then what you should have gone to is a new pediatrician. TheWraith Jul 2012 #85

Like Xanax, Zoloft and so many other drugs sold within Western medicine? n/t MadHound Jul 2012 #92

Just listening to those pharmaceutical commercials on TV Art_from_Ark Jul 2012 #191

If Big Woo were actually held to any standards at all MattBaggins Jul 2012 #230

You mean, "Big Woo" would have a warning like this? Art_from_Ark Jul 2012 #233

Or do not use this tea if you have high blood pressure. MattBaggins Jul 2012 #252

No, not like that Confusious Jul 2012 #210

Tell that to the Zoloft users who have died from its side effects. n/t MadHound Jul 2012 #287

I had an excellent pediatrician, thank you. pnwmom Jul 2012 #133

That pediatrician should quit her practice. MattBaggins Jul 2012 #229

"chiropractic nonsense" saved my dogs life magical thyme Jul 2012 #45

Medically necessary? vs PATIENT necessary. It may be "medically" necessary to haul an 88 patrice Jul 2012 #55

Thank you. uppityperson Jul 2012 #59

Have seen several family elders off into the beyond. Even under what is supposed to be the best patrice Jul 2012 #64

so much of alternative medicine has to do with prevention Voice for Peace Jul 2012 #276

I've done well with chiropractors. xmas74 Jul 2012 #298

What's a shame is that the alternative medicine folks don't MineralMan Jul 2012 #40

Check out the NLM. Richard D Jul 2012 #50

Yes, and the conclusions are never clear. MineralMan Jul 2012 #73

And the conclusions are clear on drugs like Zoloft, Prozac, Xanax, etc.? underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #108

Uh, I'm very close to someone who has benefited MineralMan Jul 2012 #111

Um, I thought anecdotal stories were worthless. I'm very close to someone who has benefited uppityperson Jul 2012 #112

Not worthless. Just not evidence on their own. MineralMan Jul 2012 #134

silly you -- anecdotal evidence is only permissible when advocating big pharma. nashville_brook Jul 2012 #207

Oh silly me indeed. I forgot. Slap me with a wet noodle and call me done. uppityperson Jul 2012 #208

The benefits to 'some' are not to be argued. underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #114

Zoloft should not be prescribed except for conditions where it has MineralMan Jul 2012 #135

And let me just say right now, misuse of prescription drugs is a terrible thing Godhumor Jul 2012 #160

And misuse of prescription drugs is off the charts at an all time high (no pun intended) underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #170

Zoloft side effects: Go Big Pharma MagickMuffin Jul 2012 #180

Fortunately, she suffers from none of those. MineralMan Jul 2012 #185

These side effects are known because the drug has been scientifically studied cpwm17 Jul 2012 #212

Yes, the conclusions are clear. Only the severely depressed do better on them than placebo stevenleser Jul 2012 #169

But the profit driven drug business underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #173

That is because improperly prescribed, SSRI's/SNRI's can push a person into hypomania. stevenleser Jul 2012 #176

Of this I am already aware and understand. underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #183

Do you honestly believe that the profit driven Big Woo MattBaggins Jul 2012 #235

Not just the drug business but the doctors doing the prescribing. joshcryer Jul 2012 #239

Yes 200+ years of Science and Medicine have not amazing things MattBaggins Jul 2012 #234

Neither did Big Pharma, nor did the government. Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #270

That's one hell of a made up statement. MattBaggins Jul 2012 #274

If you'd bother to pick up some books... Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #296

I pick up many books MattBaggins Jul 2012 #297

Well then you know that almost every advance started out wrong. Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #306

Examples of nothing? MattBaggins Jul 2012 #307

No, I don't other's homework for them. Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #311

Like germ theory? GreenMask Jul 2012 #275

Perfect example. Germ theory was outrageous quackery and no reputable scientist Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #295

You mean all those double blind tests we've been finding out are rigged to give new meds Lionessa Jul 2012 #138

Links, please. MineralMan Jul 2012 #143

Are you accusing the University of Washington, one of Bastyr's collaborators, pnwmom Jul 2012 #232

Yes, but we also need more naturalistic research, to try to understand qualitatively significant fac patrice Jul 2012 #149

I'm all for research. MineralMan Jul 2012 #151

Absolutely. There's no way to share it if it isn't. There must be some kind of connecting commonalit patrice Jul 2012 #152

What's a shame is that you haven't bothered to find out about the research that IS being done. pnwmom Jul 2012 #231

Do you know what they call Alternative Medicine that's been proved to work? Ian David Jul 2012 #54

Really? MadHound Jul 2012 #78

And do you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proven to work, Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #106

and quackery. uppityperson Jul 2012 #107

I guess you missed the proven effective part. n/t Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #142

No, I haven't. Since massage therapy now has studies proving effectiveness for some uppityperson Jul 2012 #145

If it is effective, it is not, by definition, quackery. Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #154

You two are agreeing underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #164

Oh! Oops. Apologies to uppity and thanks to you. Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #168

Proving not proved Godhumor Jul 2012 #157

I can't even get an apology posted right today. ^ look up there ^. n/t Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #187

I've been offline a while. We are agreeing and no problems, was being too curt nt uppityperson Jul 2012 #193

+1 underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #119

Woo-hoo, big pharma gets another boost! polichick Jul 2012 #3

No, subsidized CAM is being reduced or wiped out, which is a boost to all of us Godhumor Jul 2012 #4

Lots of snake oil coming from big pharma, too. Zalatix Jul 2012 #11

Withdrawn drugs is comparable to mandates funding CAM? Godhumor Jul 2012 #14

Thalidomide is being used for many people with very serious illnesses MattBaggins Jul 2012 #236

Godhumor, you are barking up the tree here on DU Patiod Jul 2012 #32

Did you explain to them how many universes one needs for a C100 dilution? MattBaggins Jul 2012 #237

Then there's some of us who take heed of Quackwatch and Zalatix Jul 2012 #266

Just because Big Pharma needs strict policing doesn't mean Big Snake Oil is OK Patiod Jul 2012 #312

I love quackwatch but have found untrue non-sources "facts" there which lead me to uppityperson Jul 2012 #288

Exactly. Who cares about nutrition, vitamins, minerals, and all those pnwmom Jul 2012 #13

Absolutely, naturopaths should not have protected subsidized mandates Godhumor Jul 2012 #16

Your ignorance is showing. Medical doctors in Washington often recommend naturopaths. pnwmom Jul 2012 #23

Which is the C in CAM, and is not even remotely medically necessary or even useful Godhumor Jul 2012 #27

Sorry, but I've had better luck trusting my M.D.'s here, and their referrals, pnwmom Jul 2012 #38

And, I'm glad the country will be trusting scietific rigor instead of pseudoscience Godhumor Jul 2012 #43

If scientific rigor were the criteria pscot Jul 2012 #49

They can. Bastyr University has been actively engaged in research for years, in partnership pnwmom Jul 2012 #51

Yeah, no. Bastyr is infamous within the medical world for its pseudoscience Godhumor Jul 2012 #62

Right, you speak for the entire medical world -- except for the N.I.H., the University of Washington pnwmom Jul 2012 #70

Google Bastyr quackery, it may prove enlightening Godhumor Jul 2012 #74

Why, so I can read posts by a bunch of ill-informed blowhards? n/t pnwmom Jul 2012 #129

Yea, that's being open minded. Confusious Jul 2012 #222

Seems your much loved bastyr Confusious Jul 2012 #218

OK. When those studies are done and reported, MineralMan Jul 2012 #283

Why wait for that? Bastyr's researchers have been publishing for decades. pnwmom Jul 2012 #293

Actually, I read a couple of completed studies she was MineralMan Jul 2012 #299

"Some benefit was shown." In the world of cancer studies, that kind of result is considered pnwmom Jul 2012 #300

Meditation and massage are not part of what I consider to be MineralMan Jul 2012 #302

Are M.D. allergists also "woo woo"? Those allergy shots with the tiny amounts of allergens pnwmom Jul 2012 #303

Those allergists are not using homeopathetic MineralMan Jul 2012 #304

I believe in good nutrition and even some LiberalLoner Jul 2012 #84

Oh, you mean the vitamins and minerals that are unregulated by the FDA? Zoeisright Jul 2012 #219

Big pharma at least provides stuff that has an effect Scootaloo Jul 2012 #26

Folic acid during pregnancy has greatly reduced spina bifida, but it wasn't conventional pnwmom Jul 2012 #46

You're missing the point Scootaloo Jul 2012 #60

No, you are. The people I've been arguing with are those who lump naturopathy and acupuncture pnwmom Jul 2012 #65

There's a reason, too, now that I look into it... Scootaloo Jul 2012 #75

Are you supporting Naturopathy or botanical medicine? MattBaggins Jul 2012 #241

I'm supporting the work of Bastyr Naturopathic University and its trained practitioners, pnwmom Jul 2012 #253

Bastyr is about a reputable as Bob Jones MattBaggins Jul 2012 #256

That is completely and utterly false to try and say MattBaggins Jul 2012 #238

I never said it was "unaware of folic acid." They didn't recommend the standard use of pnwmom Jul 2012 #255

Going to have to disagree with you MattBaggins Jul 2012 #260

Here's a history of folic acid research by the medical community: MineralMan Jul 2012 #308

Indeed Oilwellian Jul 2012 #31

Here's the thing....you don't actually need an acupuncturist. jeff47 Jul 2012 #245

I see the woo-woos are already whining. Odin2005 Jul 2012 #5

I see the big pharma fans are out in force. n/t pnwmom Jul 2012 #24

Oh no! The taxpayers won't pay for your sugar pills! backscatter712 Jul 2012 #28

You are comparing apples and oranges. pnwmom Jul 2012 #48

At least vitamins have some beneficial effects. backscatter712 Jul 2012 #93

I know you are right Mimosa Jul 2012 #265

no they are not MattBaggins Jul 2012 #243

Some do, true. But many do not. Like MD's that over prescribe. There are some unscrupulous doctors uppityperson Jul 2012 #285

Name Calling and and Either/Or Fallacies means you've lost the argument.... Moonwalk Jul 2012 #163

And post #5 isn't name calling MagickMuffin Jul 2012 #181

I think you meant to reply here since this is the name calling uppityperson Jul 2012 #198

Check the context, please. The person I was responding to had just used the term "woo-woos." pnwmom Jul 2012 #227

No, science fans Confusious Jul 2012 #225

Empiricism, the scientific method: These are my gods. Their magic is STRONG. nt Poll_Blind Jul 2012 #7

+1 LiberalLoner Jul 2012 #10

I'll say Tsiyu Jul 2012 #15

+1,000,000! magical thyme Jul 2012 #47

Those drugs are magic. underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #166

They turn a lot of people into *dead* around here Tsiyu Jul 2012 #189

We could always replace it with chinese "medicine" MattBaggins Jul 2012 #244

Herbals are by definition derived from plants Art_from_Ark Jul 2012 #248

Fixed MattBaggins Jul 2012 #251

I will agree about the Chinese medicines derived from animal products Art_from_Ark Jul 2012 #254

People say a lot of things MattBaggins Jul 2012 #258

I'm sure there are studies about the efficacy of Chinese herbal medicines in Japan Art_from_Ark Jul 2012 #262

Brushing your teeth is the number one way to prevent periodontitis. MattBaggins Jul 2012 #273

Actually, flossing is better at preventing periodontitis. Besides which, he said "treat". uppityperson Jul 2012 #286

Actually brushing and flossing MattBaggins Jul 2012 #292

And eating right and using good toothpaste, and good genes, and lots of other things too. uppityperson Jul 2012 #310

Strawman Tsiyu Jul 2012 #267

Bastyr University does research on naturopathic medicine. pnwmom Jul 2012 #17

best i can tell my insurance does not cover alternative medicine fizzgig Jul 2012 #20

I reject Obamacare beacause Woody Woodpecker Jul 2012 #21

You reject the Affordable Care Act because of THAT??? Zoeisright Jul 2012 #220

I am glad massage therapists are doing scientific studies so massage therapy may be continued. uppityperson Jul 2012 #33

But it would move from CAM to accepted medicinal practice when proven effective Godhumor Jul 2012 #37

Your definition of CAM is "unprovable crap"? Oh. nt uppityperson Jul 2012 #41

Complementary and Alternative Medicine is defined as such Godhumor Jul 2012 #56

I'd like to see a link to a reputable source with that definition vs your definition. Thank you. uppityperson Jul 2012 #57

Sure Godhumor Jul 2012 #67

Thanks for the link but it says nothing about CAM being "crap" or unprovable or validating your defn uppityperson Jul 2012 #80

Well, why would the people representing it call it crap? Godhumor Jul 2012 #87

You generalize too much. My massages are not "relaxing and feel great". Yes, I'm a Western med & CAM uppityperson Jul 2012 #94

No, my headline was that they wouldn't call it crap Godhumor Jul 2012 #96

Another fail. Here is what AMTA does say, and links to research now, 2012, not 1997 "AMTA booklet". uppityperson Jul 2012 #103

"Realxing, relief of aches, and feel good" sounds like a lot of prescriptions you seem ok with uppityperson Jul 2012 #110

I have not talked about any prescribed drugs other that normal umbrella prescription coverage Godhumor Jul 2012 #121

why are prescriptions that are "Realxing, relief of aches, and feel good" ok with you? uppityperson Jul 2012 #125

I'm not sure what you're trying to get me to say, sorry Godhumor Jul 2012 #130

You continue to ignore what I write to counter your massage assertions. uppityperson Jul 2012 #141

Your proof maintains massage as therapy for HIV/AIDS victims, autism spectrum, etc. Godhumor Jul 2012 #148

You have no understanding easttexaslefty Jul 2012 #165

Oh good, point me to the empirical studies that say so Godhumor Jul 2012 #171

NOTHING was said about "permanently healing scar tissue" in ETL's comment. underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #178

oh so broken down scar tissue comes back? Godhumor Jul 2012 #179

IF you had any understanding of the subject you'd know better than to ask that. underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #184

Had to go find where you pulled that excerpt Godhumor Jul 2012 #192

Here from burnsurgerydotorg website underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #196

Thanks. Godhumor Jul 2012 #202

You deny something works, then shown proof you still disagree and want to leave. Hahaha uppityperson Jul 2012 #215

Range of motion improves after massage in children with burns: A pilot study uppityperson Jul 2012 #203

I didn't say that easttexaslefty Jul 2012 #213

What medical books would you suggest for finding this? MattBaggins Jul 2012 #245

How's this? easttexaslefty Jul 2012 #280

Yes getting people to relax and move injured joints is sound medicine MattBaggins Jul 2012 #282

Physical Therapists use it also. It does "actually exist". uppityperson Jul 2012 #290

Here. How about when a PT does it? Are physical therapists also Crap? uppityperson Jul 2012 #214

You answered my last question. "Can you do any of that or will you now try and deflect...?" Deflect. uppityperson Jul 2012 #200

Not happening Godhumor Jul 2012 #209

Deflect again. AMA have no scientific standing either since it, like AMTA is a professional organiza uppityperson Jul 2012 #211

FWIW, some of the stuff associated with mt and body work bugs me a LOT uppityperson Jul 2012 #216

Lung cancer "Complementary therapies have an increasingly important role in the control of symptoms uppityperson Jul 2012 #205

So you think pain medicine is crap also since it only helps with aches. Gotcha. thanks for clarifyin uppityperson Jul 2012 #206

As I understand: it will identify what is more valid and what is less valid & under what variables. patrice Jul 2012 #36

Exactly, so CAM disappears, but those that are proven effective become actual medical work Godhumor Jul 2012 #39

These are HUGE questions especially amongst the elderly. The answers MUST come from research that is patrice Jul 2012 #61

It's about time, too. n/t Ian David Jul 2012 #52

Acupuncture has been used for 8000 years. Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2012 #58

Time is not indicative of effectiveness Godhumor Jul 2012 #77

And there you show your prejudices or would it be ignorance? uppityperson Jul 2012 #83

Neither. How does acupuncture work without refering to a non-tangible energy flow? Godhumor Jul 2012 #118

Both. Educate yourself. Scientific terms? Ok. Try here for starts... Oh dang, "mystical" is missing. uppityperson Jul 2012 #123

Changing from Qi to electromagnetic field is not scientic terms Godhumor Jul 2012 #153

That 1 word is all you take away?Try neurotransmitters, neurohormones, nerves, hypothalamic-pituitar uppityperson Jul 2012 #195

Lot's of nice medical terms there MattBaggins Jul 2012 #250

How does that work if the needles don't cause pain and never overcome the receptor thresholds MattBaggins Jul 2012 #249

All sensory receptors are not pain receptors. If they are in you, I feel sorry because you must be uppityperson Jul 2012 #284

Lol MattBaggins Jul 2012 #291

I'd call it Scientific Reasoning MattBaggins Jul 2012 #247

Thousands of years of practice do not necessarily add up to mysticism. scubadude Jul 2012 #182

Except acupuncture had been study, and it doesn't work Godhumor Jul 2012 #197

Even if what you say is true, you still do not address the balance of my post. scubadude Jul 2012 #257

"It's been tested in the real world far more than many other treatments." Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #177

THIS Daemonaquila Jul 2012 #190

The PATIENT CENTERED Outcomes Research Institute, i.e. the PP in the PPACA patrice Jul 2012 #69

As far as CAM goes.. ananda Jul 2012 #76

Thats a real shame fredamae Jul 2012 #81

Don't call what isn't as though it were. Igel Jul 2012 #82

Until ACA truly hits in 2014, everything is potential Godhumor Jul 2012 #95

Finally! Deep13 Jul 2012 #86

Health care plan at work covers abelenkpe Jul 2012 #88

In Canada, most provinces don't provide much if any coverage for this stuff JBoy Jul 2012 #89

no more coverage for medical marijuana? eShirl Jul 2012 #91

Replies re “alternative medicine” challenge acupuncture and chiropractic practices but IMO more harm jody Jul 2012 #97

Vioxx. Not just ineffective. Deadly. nashville_brook Jul 2012 #204

Look through a Physician's ohheckyeah Jul 2012 #99

+1000 uppityperson Jul 2012 #104

Where did those statistics come from? cpwm17 Jul 2012 #272

I thought I posted the link - ohheckyeah Jul 2012 #294

Coverage can be ofered even if it isn't required; hedgehog Jul 2012 #105

Which is fine, it is being required to offer that was the issue n/t Godhumor Jul 2012 #115

It's threads like this that I miss the UNREC feature for bbgrunt Jul 2012 #116

THANK YOU! I've been feeling as if I've wandered into the wrong site lately. progressivebydesign Jul 2012 #122

I can take the differences; it's the meanness of it all that is overwhelming. I wonder if there patrice Jul 2012 #137

Proof vs. Belief is always a topic that stretches both sides Godhumor Jul 2012 #155

I taught Psychology, as Science, for high school. Human behavior and mental processes patrice Jul 2012 #162

+ + + + + + + n/t FedUpWithIt All Jul 2012 #240

What is considered "alternative"? JDPriestly Jul 2012 #132

Trashing thread. closeupready Jul 2012 #136

Thanks for letting us know! n/t Godhumor Jul 2012 #144

I find the so called skeptics adherence to their faith based beliefs Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #150

All of us need to free ourselves and then try to collaborate on how to proceed. And I do mean "need" patrice Jul 2012 #156

Exactly. n/t Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #269

Faith-based science is an oxymoron cpwm17 Jul 2012 #217

You're absolutely right, but this has nothing to do with liberal or conservative. Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #268

I am going home and stepping out for a bit. Will be on to check replies late tonight Godhumor Jul 2012 #158

Good. sagat Jul 2012 #161

Good. 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #174

Fine by me. Daemonaquila Jul 2012 #186

I'm happy to see it won't subsidize expensive quackery bhikkhu Jul 2012 #199

We should allow a little bit of coverage in this area simply to admit we don't know everything. limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #259

Chiropractic and acupuncture are NOT "pseudoscientific health care" emsimon33 Jul 2012 #261

There is no such thing as Allopathic medicine MattBaggins Jul 2012 #279

"Allopathic Medicine" is woo talk coined by a homeopath cpwm17 Jul 2012 #281

Healthier life style yes, no to everything else 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #289

I'm amused and bored at the same time Tsiyu Jul 2012 #271

i suffer from chronic body thetans arely staircase Jul 2012 #301

Yes, under the pseudo-religion clause. MineralMan Jul 2012 #305

down with OT III arely staircase Jul 2012 #309