General Discussion

CanisCrocinus

(109 posts)

12. Bad. But not worse.

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 07:15 AM

Jul 2012

I lived through the Johnson (and Nixon) years, and yes, I do remember them both badly. And yes, the country was split as you say. (Interesting that to note that the split was bi-partisan and not really along party lines at all; the identifiers then were "hawk" or "dove" and there were Republicans and Democrats on both sides.) Johnson was hated by us anti-war types not for starting the war, as someone pointed out above, but for greatly expanding it. Even so, we recognized his good work in other areas -- civil rights for one. Nixon richly deserved hatred, for all the well-known reasons. But I have to disagree with "they ain't seen nothing." The split in the country was different; and the Republican Party was different, to put it mildly -- they were not the lunatic know-nothings they are today. I would take ten Nixons in a row rather than one more George Bush, or Romney, or anyone from what the Republican Party has become.

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LBJ Was Horrible. Nixon Was Worse. [View all] SoDesuKa Jul 2012 OP

Umm, I think you need to study a bit more Vietnam history... LBJ did NOT start that war... hlthe2b Jul 2012 #1

I lived in Appalachia as a kid during the War on Poverty. kentuck Jul 2012 #4

Agree...Vietnam was his curse. Civil Rights & war on Poverty was his (at least partial) redemption. hlthe2b Jul 2012 #5

+1 Gormy Cuss Jul 2012 #149

+1 for mixed bag. limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #176

Definitions SoDesuKa Jul 2012 #6

LBJ did not start the war-- he escalated. That was a horrendous, tragic mistake... hlthe2b Jul 2012 #7

The "War" Started During the Johnson Years SoDesuKa Jul 2012 #11

Historians acknowledge the war started with Eisenhower and Kennedy.. hlthe2b Jul 2012 #16

Nameless "Historians" SoDesuKa Jul 2012 #20

You are just being silly.. But feel free. hlthe2b Jul 2012 #21

Did Eisenhower Start the War in Vietnam? SoDesuKa Jul 2012 #22

Truman sent military advisors before Eisenhower or Kennedy. See #82. None of them, of course, sent AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #83

The war in vietnam started in 1945, when ho chi minh's provisional government declared indepen- HiPointDem Jul 2012 #109

Ho Chih Minh begged Truman for US support hifiguy Jul 2012 #161

There was never a "war" with Viet Nam, congress never declared War MiniMe Jul 2012 #31

Bingo. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #139

There were American combat fatalities in Vietnam before 1965. Advisors' blood coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #52

There never was a declaration of WAR. immoderate Jul 2012 #151

LBJ did NOT start the Vietnam War obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #25

LBJ DID start the Vietnam War. former9thward Jul 2012 #65

And before the Gulf of Tonkin incident, he was engaging in a military build-up for the land war AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #77

SEATO and republican paranoia made it inevitable. Domino theories and some such shit roguevalley Jul 2012 #129

oh my. so a war called a police action isn't a war even though it is one and people die roguevalley Jul 2012 #128

JFK started the Vietnam War. nt Honeycombe8 Jul 2012 #147

You're tossing the baby with the bath water lapislzi Jul 2012 #32

LBJ rode on the civil-rights' coat-tails of Truman, Eisenhower, and Kennedy. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #92

LBJ's 'naval intelligence' job was in the naval reserve, first inspecting shipyards in the us & HiPointDem Jul 2012 #112

Your "expertise" regarding LBJ's naval service seems to be at odds with what is reported AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #145

The Silver Star and LBJ Octafish Jul 2012 #167

"Appointed Lieutenant Commander in the United States Naval Reserve on 21 June 1940" HiPointDem Jul 2012 #170

I repeat since you didn't seem to understand it the first time, "your 'expertise' regarding LBJ's AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #182

his job *was* in the naval reserve. you don't seem to get what the naval (navy) reserve is. HiPointDem Jul 2012 #183

You don't seem to understand what the Department of the Navy has posted on their web site: AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #186

i understand it quite well. you don't. plus you made the false claim that johnson was a naval HiPointDem Jul 2012 #188

No. You falsely claimed by implication that all Naval intelligence officers are "cloak and dagger" AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #190

Anyone who believes that all Naval intelligence officers are "cloak & dagger" AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #189

he didn't have to sign the legislation. He did it anyway conceding the south to the pigs roguevalley Jul 2012 #132

That's an incredibly simplistic view of LBJ. kiva Jul 2012 #98

No, military advisors were first sent in by Truman. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #82

Three Words: Tonkin Gulf Resolution Taverner Jul 2012 #102

Yup, and two more : Warren Commission. Waiting For Everyman Jul 2012 #120

agreed. The Great Society was a miracle and so was the civil rights and medicare roguevalley Jul 2012 #127

This is true. OP doesn't know history. LBJ also pushed & signed Civil Rights Act. Honeycombe8 Jul 2012 #146

True. Yet, how can the good outweigh the deaths of 59,000 American troops and millions of civilians? Octafish Jul 2012 #163

Johnson was a crude and often myopic man who had brilliant political skills, simply because struggle4progress Jul 2012 #2

Ethical Giant SoDesuKa Jul 2012 #8

Father was sent tsuki Jul 2012 #17

TDY = Temporary Duty SoDesuKa Jul 2012 #23

Eisenhower was familiar with LBJ and his M-I-C financial supporters. He was warning us about the AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #86

Eisenhower was happy to consort with the military-industrial complex during his term. He was HiPointDem Jul 2012 #115

This is true, but he may have turned a leaf towards the end. Selatius Jul 2012 #117

we will never know why he said those words leaving office. but i will say it's easier to say them HiPointDem Jul 2012 #121

We do know why Eisenhower said those words. He was opposed to optional wars and war profiteering. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #150

Ike had a profound distrust of Pentagon brass. hifiguy Jul 2012 #159

I have all of Dad's records, and there is no TDY tsuki Jul 2012 #103

No--it does not appear on your summary of billets held. MADem Jul 2012 #131

ALWAYS worth a re-read... lapislzi Jul 2012 #33

Concise, insightful, and accurate lapislzi Jul 2012 #49

How he implemented the Civil Rights Act kemah Jul 2012 #56

Well, gee... these guys also gave us Medicare, Medicaid, the EPA... TreasonousBastard Jul 2012 #3

That's what I was going to say. It will be a long time before we know the full effect of the Reagan/ libinnyandia Jul 2012 #88

Actually... loyalsister Jul 2012 #93

OK, ya got me-- forgot about the ADA. TreasonousBastard Jul 2012 #100

We could probhably find some little nugget from Hoover loyalsister Jul 2012 #108

Right on the mark struggle4progress Jul 2012 #118

He got the ball rolling on EPA. It actually started under Nixon, though eridani Jul 2012 #143

LBJ is one of my 50/50 people. Are_grits_groceries Jul 2012 #9

I get the impression he made a deal with the devil (Wall Street): yurbud Jul 2012 #168

Bush started 2 wars and made huge tax cuts... lame54 Jul 2012 #10

It worked! NeverEnuff Jul 2012 #14

Riots in the Streets SoDesuKa Jul 2012 #15

There weren't riot in the streets in the Bush years because there was NO DRAFT. Chorophyll Jul 2012 #46

what is your point? there were no "riots" under W, so W was great? He was the worst president HiPointDem Jul 2012 #119

Bad. But not worse. CanisCrocinus Jul 2012 #12

Yep, that's how I remember it too. n/t RKP5637 Jul 2012 #27

Vietnam was lbj's undoing and it undid the last great progressive president. Warren Stupidity Jul 2012 #13

I'm Reading Vol. I of Robert Caro's Iggy Jul 2012 #18

As someone said, LBJ was a mixed bag... joeybee12 Jul 2012 #19

Civil Rights? War on Poverty? obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #24

I don't remember it as all bad, not at all. n/t RKP5637 Jul 2012 #26

LBJ was a ball buster. He made sure dem's held the line. It's to bad Obama hasn't learned southernyankeebelle Jul 2012 #28

Historical Revisionism SoDesuKa Jul 2012 #29

To me, the Vietnam war was a fatal flaw for LBJ. He certainly did nothing to RKP5637 Jul 2012 #38

The commitment was before LBJ. It was Ike. southernyankeebelle Jul 2012 #50

No. Truman. See #82. Neither Truman, Eisenhower, nor Kennedy started the war in the sense that AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #87

But...but...but...that means the sainted JFK was also responsible! How can that be???!!! Tom Ripley Jul 2012 #97

JFK only wanted to send trainers to train and that was it. LBJ took it further. southernyankeebelle Jul 2012 #101

The US had been training the south vietnamese since truman. The US began spraying Agent HiPointDem Jul 2012 #124

He busted balls for years in the Senate lapislzi Jul 2012 #34

Yep, very well said. I could see LBJ with these republicans today, he would RKP5637 Jul 2012 #39

I would love to watch that happen. xmas74 Jul 2012 #72

He learned his chops for the likes of Sam Rayburn. How's that for a memory. Some of us roguevalley Jul 2012 #133

LBJ worked the Senate the way The Rock works wrestling: hifiguy Jul 2012 #158

damned right. :D roguevalley Jul 2012 #181

Yep, that's how I remember it too. I always considered LBJ a good guy except RKP5637 Jul 2012 #37

Remember he got the voting rights passed and remember what he said when it passed and it southernyankeebelle Jul 2012 #47

Obama's not an older white guy in the 1960s treestar Jul 2012 #59

No I am not talking about the war part. I am talking about how he got things done by southernyankeebelle Jul 2012 #66

It is not good to make people do things they do not want to do treestar Jul 2012 #68

Boy you need to google LBJ and see what he accomplished being a ball buster. Starting with southernyankeebelle Jul 2012 #69

It would not work now however treestar Jul 2012 #70

no. the party structure was different, that's all. and the reasons were economic. people were HiPointDem Jul 2012 #130

LBJ did landmark stuff kicking ass. Obama couldn't get jack passed even compromising. roguevalley Jul 2012 #134

No one in their right mind hifiguy Jul 2012 #160

my uncle worked for Hubert Humphrey way back when. Our family LOVED that man. roguevalley Jul 2012 #179

I met Hubert Humphrey when I was 13 hifiguy Jul 2012 #180

Yes, the Great Society was so horrible. Odin2005 Jul 2012 #30

My dad went to VN before anyone here knew where it was and my father-in-law was a trainer in the southernyankeebelle Jul 2012 #48

Obama should try to be more like LBJ tularetom Jul 2012 #35

Very well said, I often think similar. LBJ was a street fighter, and he RKP5637 Jul 2012 #41

Obama is simply not a brutal person treestar Jul 2012 #60

That's a fine way to talk about the last great progressive Democratic President (good luck... Tom Ripley Jul 2012 #36

It's a very depressing thought, but I think accurate, as you said. About the RKP5637 Jul 2012 #43

there are efforts to assign the kennedy assassination to lbj and otherwise deprecate his HiPointDem Jul 2012 #122

LBJ can never be forgiven for what he did to Vietnam cpwm17 Jul 2012 #40

And frankly IMO the US has continued on with that tradition. For a country RKP5637 Jul 2012 #42

Yes, and let's not forget that he lied to Congress in order to get authorization Jackpine Radical Jul 2012 #51

Nothing like a little revisionist history.. 99Forever Jul 2012 #44

Yet I would accept either one of them --- Chorophyll Jul 2012 #45

LBJ was a tragic figure, not a monster. hifiguy Jul 2012 #53

It is naive to the point of absurdity to imagine that anyone else who would have been president at Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #54

You cannot paint Johnson with a single brush. He gave us Medicare and the Civil Rights Act /nt still_one Jul 2012 #55

LBJ committed unprovoked mass murder against millions of men, women, and children cpwm17 Jul 2012 #58

cold war ideology was sacrosanct at that time. no one else who could possibly have been President at Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #64

True, if you disregard the fact that Goldwater was the war candidate, LBJ was the peace candidate, AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #90

Actually, Goldwater was the "nuclear annihilation candidate" while LBJ was the "cold war... Tom Ripley Jul 2012 #96

So did Congress of that time treestar Jul 2012 #61

If you were black, old, poor or sick those people didn't necessarily 'hate' LBJ WI_DEM Jul 2012 #57

What about the Black draftees? What about the Black, old, poor, or sick parents of draftees? AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #153

LBJ was a bad president for Vietnam escalation The Second Stone Jul 2012 #62

LBJ was a complicated man, Blue_In_AK Jul 2012 #63

You're right. ParkieDem Jul 2012 #67

He drove the poverty rate down, we are watching it increase today. Now that's horrible. n/t jtuck004 Jul 2012 #71

LBJ was actually a great president, apart from hjis huge errors in Viet Nam Stinky The Clown Jul 2012 #73

*sigh* Xolodno Jul 2012 #74

Only the US matters? FreeJoe Jul 2012 #75

I was there for them all. W did the most incalculable damage. Faygo Kid Jul 2012 #76

Nixon's a close 2nd for what he did to US Military in Vietnam, splitting American labor in half, & patrice Jul 2012 #80

Respectfully, we cannot recover from what Nixon did. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #148

Nixon was 100s Xs worse. Intentionally fucked with LBJ's peace efforts in order to USE patrice Jul 2012 #78

I lived through the Johnsen years marybourg Jul 2012 #79

He passed Medicare. charlyvi Jul 2012 #81

LBJ rode on the coat-tails of Kennedy with respect to Medicare. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #99

it is not even plausible that JFK could have even come close to achieving LBJ's accomplishments Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #116

You don't know your history lunatica Jul 2012 #84

"Hey, Hey, LBJ....." Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2012 #85

Racist War SoDesuKa Jul 2012 #104

I'm old enough to remember the claim that the Vietnamese didn't value their lives as much as us cpwm17 Jul 2012 #105

and what has changed, eh? every president since johnson has had their war -- or two or three or HiPointDem Jul 2012 #114

If what you say is true, what war was conducted during President Carter's term? Or Ford's? AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #155

you're correct in that there was a lull in military operations post-vietnam & post-watergate, HiPointDem Jul 2012 #172

It's wrong to say that "every president since johnson has had their war." It's good to see that you AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #184

i call supplying arms, training & logistics in support of a war war-making. ymmv. HiPointDem Jul 2012 #185

Then you are wrong again. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #187

LBJ was vile. Just look into his history. ailsagirl Jul 2012 #89

no more vile than any other us president. better than many. HiPointDem Jul 2012 #110

Ever hear of Billy Sol Estes? There's a CD set called 'The Men Who Killed Kennedy' (amazon.com) ailsagirl Jul 2012 #125

I was an adult during the johnson era. So yes, i heard of billy sol estes, because the scandal got HiPointDem Jul 2012 #126

Henry Marshall of the USDA was suicided ailsagirl Jul 2012 #135

lyndon ordered the murder -- cause billy sol said so. under a grant of immunity. okey dokey. HiPointDem Jul 2012 #137

My hometown had reached its economic, social, and population peak during their presidencies Nikia Jul 2012 #91

sounds like my hometown. reagan killed it, and i thought it couldn't get deader, but it's worse HiPointDem Jul 2012 #123

Bush Jr. & Company nearly destroyed this nation and the world economy. Dawson Leery Jul 2012 #94

Except for the Vietnam thing, Johnson was actually a decent President. backscatter712 Jul 2012 #95

LBJ was the ultimate old school Texas politician. GoneOffShore Jul 2012 #106

You are sooo wrong. Johnson did more for this country than any president since FDR. demosincebirth Jul 2012 #107

Would you make the same claim if Johnson's war victims were European, British, or American? cpwm17 Jul 2012 #156

Johnson's Viet Nam war was an optional war. His victims included Americans who were unwillingly sent AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #164

I can see that discussing anything with you would be a useless venture. nt demosincebirth Jul 2012 #174

w was worse than nixon arely staircase Jul 2012 #111

W = the worst president of mine & my parents' lifetimes. he was a disaster. HiPointDem Jul 2012 #113

i think he was the worst ever, seriously arely staircase Jul 2012 #152

Worst president in US history. hifiguy Jul 2012 #162

Raygun was worse than either LBJ or Nixon the problems we have today Raine Jul 2012 #136

Johnson gave us the Civil Rights Act. Ask any black person how that turned out? Medicare bill? Not demosincebirth Jul 2012 #175

You can make the argument that ANY President is horrible steve2470 Jul 2012 #138

It's arguable that LBJ was the consummate politician of the 20th century, 2nd only to FDR perhaps Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #140

"I thought we couldn't do no worse" William Seger Jul 2012 #141

Waist Deep in the Big Muddy SoDesuKa Jul 2012 #142

i lived during those times... madrchsod Jul 2012 #144

Eisenhower started the Vietnam war. WilliamPitt Jul 2012 #154

LBJ and Nixon were the first to adhere to the 'Money Trumps Peace' line. Octafish Jul 2012 #157

I hope this was meant satirically. Both LBJ and Nixon were pretty good on domestic issues yurbud Jul 2012 #165

PIC: IMPEACHMENT POLLS: Bush vs. Clinton vs. Nixon for historical context yurbud Jul 2012 #166

nixon & clinton scandals got non-stop press. bush got off easy in terms of press, for much worse. HiPointDem Jul 2012 #169

and yet looking at impeachment polls, the public figured it out nonetheless yurbud Jul 2012 #171

unfortunately the press didn't give the same attention to clinton's real crimes. HiPointDem Jul 2012 #173

anything you do for the rich is not a crime--ANYTHING yurbud Jul 2012 #178

LBJ brought Bill Moyers to prominence -- for that I am grateful grasswire Jul 2012 #177