Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

easttexaslefty

(1,554 posts)
280. How's this?
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 08:31 AM
Jul 2012

Br J Sports Med 2004;38:675-677 doi:10.1136/bjsm.2004.013573
Review
Cyriax physiotherapy for tennis elbow/lateral epicondylitis
 Authors
Abstract

Tennis elbow or lateral epicondylitis is one of the most common lesions of the arm with a well defined clinical presentation, which significantly impacts on the community. Many treatment approaches have been proposed to manage this condition. One is Cyriax physiotherapy. The effectiveness and reported effects of this intervention are reviewed.
tennis elbow lateral epicondylitis Cyriax physiotherapy Mill’s manipulation transverse friction
Tennis elbow (lateral epicondylitis) is one of the most common lesions of the arm. This disorder challenges the clinician daily, as it is an injury that is difficult to treat, is prone to recurrent bouts, and may last for several weeks or months. The average duration of a typical episode of tennis elbow is between six months and two years.1
It is a degenerative or failed healing tendon response characterised by the increased presence of fibroblasts, vascular hyperplasia, and disorganised collagen in the origin of the extensor carpi radialis brevis, the most commonly affected structure.2
It is generally a work related or sport related pain disorder with macroscopic and microscopic tears in the extensor carpi radialis brevis, usually caused by excessive quick, monotonous, repetitive eccentric contractions and gripping activities of the wrist.3,4 The dominant arm is commonly affected, with a prevalence of 1–3% in the general population, but this increases to 19% at 30–60 years of age and appears to be more long standing and severe in women.5,6
It has a well defined clinical presentation, the main complaints being pain and decreased grip strength, both of which may affect activities of daily living. Diagnosis is simple and can be confirmed by tests that reproduce the pain, such as palpation over the facet of the lateral epicondyle, resisted wrist extension, resisted middle finger extension, and passive wrist flexion.7
“Such a variety of treatment options suggests that the optimal treatment strategy is not known”
Although the signs and symptoms of tennis elbow are clear and its diagnosis is easy, to date no ideal treatment has emerged. A myriad of conservative treatments have been used. Over 40 different methods have been reported in the literature.8 These treatments have different theoretical mechanisms of action, but all have the same aim, to reduce pain and improve function. Such a variety of treatment options suggests that the optimal treatment strategy is not known, and more research is needed to discover the most effective treatment in patients with tennis elbow.
A common intervention is Cyriax physiotherapy. The purpose of this article is to describe its use in the treatment of tennis elbow and its effects.
CYRIAX PHYSIOTHERAPY

Cyriax and Cyriax9 claimed substantial success in treating tennis elbow using deep transverse friction (DTF) in combination with Mill’s manipulation, which is performed immediately after DTF. For it to be considered a Cyriax intervention, the two components must be used together in the order mentioned. Patients must follow the protocol three times a week for four weeks.9,10
Deep transverse friction
Although the word friction is technically incorrect and would be better replaced by “massage”, this name will be used in this article. DTF is a specific type of connective tissue massage applied precisely to the soft tissue structures such as tendons. It was developed in an empirical way by Cyriax and Cyriax and is currently used extensively in rehabilitation practice.11–15
It is vital that DTF be performed only at the exact site of the lesion, with the depth of friction tolerable to the patient.9,10,12,14,16 The effect is so localised that, unless the finger is applied to the exact site and friction given in the right direction, relief cannot be expected.9,10,14,15 DTF must be applied transversely to the specific tissue involved, unlike superficial massage given in the longitudinal direction parallel to the vessels, which enhances circulation and return of fluids.9 The therapist’s fingers and patient’s skin must move as a single unit, otherwise subcutaneous fascia could lead to blister formation or subcutaneous bruising.14
As a general guideline, DTF is applied for 10 minutes after the numbing effect has been achieved, every other day or at a minimum interval of 48 hours, because of the traumatic hyperaemia induced, to prepare the tendon for the manipulation.9,10,12,14,16 There is only empirical evidence to support the times suggested above. Unfortunately, the technique has developed a reputation for being very painful.15,17,18 However, pain during friction massage is usually the result of a wrong indication, a wrong technique, or an unaccustomed amount of pressure. If this form of massage is applied correctly, it will quickly result in an analgesic effect over the treated area and is not at all painful for the patient.9,10,14,16 On the other hand, treating clinicians claim this technique places considerable strain on their hands.3,4,12,13,19
There is very little scientific evidence on mode of action and effectiveness of DTF. Only a few studies exist, and more research is urgently needed. However, although the exact mode of action is not known, some theoretical explanations have been put forward. It has been hypothesised, with no scientific proof, that DTF has a local pain diminishing effect and results in better alignment of connective tissue fibrils.
It is a common clinical observation that application of DTF leads to immediate pain relief: the patient experiences a numbing effect during the session, and reassessment immediately after shows reduction in pain and increase in strength and mobility.15 A number of hypotheses to explain the pain relieving effect of DTF have been put forward.
Pain relief during and after DTF may be due to modulation of the nociceptive impulses at the level of the spinal cord: the “gate control theory”. The centripetal projection into the dorsal horn of the spinal cord from the nociceptive receptor system is inhibited by the concurrent activity of the mechanoreceptors located in the same tissues.16,20 According to Cyriax and Cyriax,9 DTF also leads to increased destruction of pain provoking metabolites, such as Lewis’s substances. This metabolite, if present in too high a concentration, causes ischaemia and pain. It has also been suggested that a 10 minute DTF treatment of a localised area may give rise to lasting peripheral disturbance of nerve tissue, with local anaesthetic effect.15 Another mechanism by which reduction in pain may be achieved is through diffuse noxious inhibitory controls, a pain suppression mechanism that releases endogenous opiates. The latter are inhibitory neurotransmitters which diminish the intensity of the pain transmitted to higher centres.20,21
In addition, the application of DTF can produce therapeutic movement by breaking down the strong cross links or adhesions that have been formed, softening the scar tissue and mobilising the cross links between the mutual collagen fibres and the adhesions between repairing connective tissue and surrounding tissues.14,16,20,22 Moreover clinicians claim, without support from clinical studies, that the rhythmical transverse stress of DTF stimulates fibre orientation with the result of enhancing tensile strength.14,15
Finally, DTF produces vasodilatation and increased blood flow to the area. This may facilitate the removal of chemical irritants and increase the transportation of endogenous opiates, resulting in a decrease in pain.14,16,20,22
Absolute contraindications to DTF are few. It is never applied to active infections, bursitis and disorders of nerve structures, ossification and calcification of the soft tissues, or active rheumatoid arthritis, and care is required if there is fragile skin or the patient is having anticoagulant treatment.9,10,14,15
DTF for tennis elbow is applied as follows.9,10 Position the patient comfortably with the elbow fully supinated and in 90° of flexion. Locate the anterolateral aspect of the lateral epicondyle (facet of the lateral epicondyle, where the extensor carpi radialis brevis inserts, the most common site of pain in patients with tennis elbow, as mentioned in the introduction), and identify the area of tenderness. Apply DTF with the side of the thumb tip, applying the pressure in a posterior direction on the teno-osseous junction. Maintain this pressure while imparting DTF in a direction towards your fingers, which should be positioned on the other side of the elbow for counter pressure. DTF is applied for 10 minutes after the numbing effect has been achieved, to prepare the tendon for Mill’s manipulation.
Mill’s manipulation
Mill’s manipulation is the most common manipulative technique used by physiotherapists.12,13,23 Cyriax and Cyriax9 state that it should be performed immediately after the DTF provided that the patient has a full range of passive elbow extension. If passive elbow extension is limited, the manipulative thrust will affect the elbow joint, rather than the common extensor tendon, possibly causing traumatic arthritis.9,10 It is defined as a passive movement performed at the end of range—that is, once all the slack has been taken up—and is a minimal amplitude, high velocity thrust.9,10 The aim of this technique, again without properly designed controlled studies to prove this, is to elongate the scar tissue by rupturing adhesions within the teno-oseous junction, making the area mobile and pain free.9,12,13,23
Mill’s manipulation for tennis elbow should be conducted as follows.9,10,23 Position the patient on a chair with a backrest and stand behind the patient. Support the patient’s arm under the crook of the elbow with the shoulder joint abducted to 90° and medially rotated. The forearm will automatically fall into pronation. Place the thumb of your other hand in the web space between the patient’s thumb and index finger and fully flex the patient’s wrist and pronate the forearm. Move the hand supporting the crook of the elbow on to the posterior surface of the elbow joint and, while maintaining full wrist flexion and pronation, extend the patient’s elbow until you feel that all the slack has been taken up in the tendon. Step sideways to stand behind the patient’s head, taking care to prevent the patient from leaning away either forwards or sideways, which would reduce the tension on the tendon. Apply a minimal amplitude, high velocity thrust by simultaneously side flexing your body away from your arms and pushing smartly downwards with the hand over the patient’s elbow.
Cyriax and Cyriax9 cautioned that, if poor manipulation is performed by failing to maintain full wrist flexion, the thrust is absorbed mainly by the elbow joint, potentially causing traumatic arthritis. Depending on the magnitude of the thrust, full wrist flexion probably does little to protect the joint from such a manipulation if this is a really serious consideration.
This manoeuvre is conducted once only at each treatment session because it is not a comfortable procedure for the patient, and the effects of treatment often become fully apparent over the following few days.9,10,23
Studies in which Cyriax physiotherapy for tennis elbow has been used
Computerised searches were performed using Medline (from 1966 to March 2004), Embase (from 1988 to March 2004), Cinahl (from 1982 to March 2004), Index to Chiropractic literature (from 1992 to March 2004), and Chirolars (from 1994 to March 2004) databases. Only English language publications were considered. The search terms “tennis elbow”, “lateral epicondylitis”, “Cyriax physiotherapy”, “treatment”, “management”, “physiotherapy”, “randomised control trials” were used individually or in various combinations. Other references identified from existing reviews and other papers cited in the publications were searched. Moreover, we tried to identify further citations from the reference sections of papers retrieved, by contacting experts in the field, and from the Cochrane Collaboration, an international network of experts who search journals for relevant citations, but we did not find any more studies. Unpublished reports and abstracts were not considered.
Only one study was found in which Cyriax physiotherapy had been used in the management of tennis elbow. Verhaar et al24 compared the effects of corticosteroid injections with Cyriax physiotherapy in treating patients with tennis elbow. The results showed that the corticosteroid injection was significantly more effective on the outcome measures (pain, function, grip strength, and global assessment) than Cyriax physiotherapy at the end of the treatment, but at the follow up one year after the end of treatment, there were no significant differences between the two treatment groups. This study is not helpful for practicing physiotherapists, because most do not use injections to manage this condition. It is better to compare Cyriax physiotherapy with other physiotherapy treatments in order to assess its effects. In two studies,4,19 only DTF was used to treat patients rather than all the components of Cyriax physiotherapy.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

That's a shame, MadHound Jul 2012 #1
I would love examples of medically necessary alternative medicine Godhumor Jul 2012 #2
Amen! Healing crystals do NOTHING for me LiberalLoner Jul 2012 #6
They do nothing for anybody, except the people who sell them. TheWraith Jul 2012 #79
but the same could be said of most western medicine Voice for Peace Jul 2012 #277
Well, I have proof that some crystals, when cut and polished properly, MineralMan Jul 2012 #140
Let me give you a little story on acupuncture "nonsense". Hell Hath No Fury Jul 2012 #8
And how do you think acupuncture worked? Godhumor Jul 2012 #29
Since you can't spell it, BlueToTheBone Jul 2012 #66
Oh, I'm sorry I should have typed Qi Godhumor Jul 2012 #72
No, the word you can't seem to spell BlueToTheBone Jul 2012 #194
Also he can't spell RELAXING uppityperson Jul 2012 #201
I don't know enough about... Sterling Jul 2012 #139
Source for your argument: " acupuncture fails the scietific process 100% of the time." emsimon33 Jul 2012 #264
I read one study that said pscot Jul 2012 #42
Uh, not exactly. Hell Hath No Fury Jul 2012 #68
chiropractic fixed my sciatica problem, when the ER didn't even get a fucking xray. pansypoo53219 Jul 2012 #63
Was it the same kind of scoliosis my friend has? NNN0LHI Jul 2012 #120
It depends on cause and how bad it is. My partner had a big curve and chiro & massage helped a lot. uppityperson Jul 2012 #127
Thank you for the information NNN0LHI Jul 2012 #131
It can help with muscle spasms, help them be less. Good luck to him uppityperson Jul 2012 #147
If your friend is so bad that surgery can not help MattBaggins Jul 2012 #223
What did you expect an xray to show? MattBaggins Jul 2012 #221
I had a similar experience with acupuncture emsimon33 Jul 2012 #263
very true, the sheep factor Voice for Peace Jul 2012 #278
Yet there are people who find real relief in both of those, MadHound Jul 2012 #9
Placebo effect is the placebo effect Godhumor Jul 2012 #22
It's plainly obvious you have no idea what you're talking about. underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #30
Good, show me my ignorance. Where is the scientific work showing acupuncture works Godhumor Jul 2012 #34
Show me proof of God. underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #35
What is wrong in asking for proof? ChazII Jul 2012 #44
Show me proof of God then. underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #53
Millions of people are delusional MattBaggins Jul 2012 #224
Note to self: HARK, I hear the sound of *crickets* underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #100
Why respond? Godhumor Jul 2012 #102
Proof has been posted #90 I was giving you a chance to catch up with the front of the class. underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #113
He already replied there but didn't address the proof. Did a red herring thing instead. You are so uppityperson Jul 2012 #117
As to be expected. underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #124
Willful ignorance and prejudice combine into an ugly mess. I like reading and learning also. uppityperson Jul 2012 #128
Yes. Daemonaquila Jul 2012 #188
Yes. Chan790 Jul 2012 #242
Are you a surgical instrument salesman? BlueToTheBone Jul 2012 #71
Nope. Godhumor Jul 2012 #159
Proof: MadHound Jul 2012 #90
GH and the lot of em don't give a rats behind underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #98
This post was alerted on: The jury voted 4/2 to let it stand. ohiosmith Jul 2012 #146
And in NCCAM you will see right there they state CAM has not met Godhumor Jul 2012 #101
No, what they actually say is this, MadHound Jul 2012 #109
The Maryland School of Integrated Medicine was your one study Godhumor Jul 2012 #126
How many studies will be an acceptable number for you? underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #167
clinical studies have shown time and time again, where the needle goes makes no difference Godhumor Jul 2012 #172
Is it a short article? underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #175
I would suggest statistics courses MattBaggins Jul 2012 #228
Yes NCAM studies MattBaggins Jul 2012 #226
Bastyr University does research on naturopathic medicine. pnwmom Jul 2012 #12
Serious question and naturopathy doesn't even belong in the discussion Godhumor Jul 2012 #18
My pediatrician would strongly disagree with you. She sent me to a naturopath pnwmom Jul 2012 #19
Naturopathy is largely quackery. Godhumor Jul 2012 #25
Then what you should have gone to is a new pediatrician. TheWraith Jul 2012 #85
Like Xanax, Zoloft and so many other drugs sold within Western medicine? n/t MadHound Jul 2012 #92
Just listening to those pharmaceutical commercials on TV Art_from_Ark Jul 2012 #191
If Big Woo were actually held to any standards at all MattBaggins Jul 2012 #230
You mean, "Big Woo" would have a warning like this? Art_from_Ark Jul 2012 #233
Or do not use this tea if you have high blood pressure. MattBaggins Jul 2012 #252
No, not like that Confusious Jul 2012 #210
Tell that to the Zoloft users who have died from its side effects. n/t MadHound Jul 2012 #287
I had an excellent pediatrician, thank you. pnwmom Jul 2012 #133
That pediatrician should quit her practice. MattBaggins Jul 2012 #229
"chiropractic nonsense" saved my dogs life magical thyme Jul 2012 #45
Medically necessary? vs PATIENT necessary. It may be "medically" necessary to haul an 88 patrice Jul 2012 #55
Thank you. uppityperson Jul 2012 #59
Have seen several family elders off into the beyond. Even under what is supposed to be the best patrice Jul 2012 #64
so much of alternative medicine has to do with prevention Voice for Peace Jul 2012 #276
I've done well with chiropractors. xmas74 Jul 2012 #298
What's a shame is that the alternative medicine folks don't MineralMan Jul 2012 #40
Check out the NLM. Richard D Jul 2012 #50
Yes, and the conclusions are never clear. MineralMan Jul 2012 #73
And the conclusions are clear on drugs like Zoloft, Prozac, Xanax, etc.? underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #108
Uh, I'm very close to someone who has benefited MineralMan Jul 2012 #111
Um, I thought anecdotal stories were worthless. I'm very close to someone who has benefited uppityperson Jul 2012 #112
Not worthless. Just not evidence on their own. MineralMan Jul 2012 #134
silly you -- anecdotal evidence is only permissible when advocating big pharma. nashville_brook Jul 2012 #207
Oh silly me indeed. I forgot. Slap me with a wet noodle and call me done. uppityperson Jul 2012 #208
The benefits to 'some' are not to be argued. underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #114
Zoloft should not be prescribed except for conditions where it has MineralMan Jul 2012 #135
And let me just say right now, misuse of prescription drugs is a terrible thing Godhumor Jul 2012 #160
And misuse of prescription drugs is off the charts at an all time high (no pun intended) underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #170
Zoloft side effects: Go Big Pharma MagickMuffin Jul 2012 #180
Fortunately, she suffers from none of those. MineralMan Jul 2012 #185
These side effects are known because the drug has been scientifically studied cpwm17 Jul 2012 #212
Yes, the conclusions are clear. Only the severely depressed do better on them than placebo stevenleser Jul 2012 #169
But the profit driven drug business underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #173
That is because improperly prescribed, SSRI's/SNRI's can push a person into hypomania. stevenleser Jul 2012 #176
Of this I am already aware and understand. underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #183
Do you honestly believe that the profit driven Big Woo MattBaggins Jul 2012 #235
Not just the drug business but the doctors doing the prescribing. joshcryer Jul 2012 #239
Yes 200+ years of Science and Medicine have not amazing things MattBaggins Jul 2012 #234
Neither did Big Pharma, nor did the government. Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #270
That's one hell of a made up statement. MattBaggins Jul 2012 #274
If you'd bother to pick up some books... Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #296
I pick up many books MattBaggins Jul 2012 #297
Well then you know that almost every advance started out wrong. Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #306
Examples of nothing? MattBaggins Jul 2012 #307
No, I don't other's homework for them. Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #311
Like germ theory? GreenMask Jul 2012 #275
Perfect example. Germ theory was outrageous quackery and no reputable scientist Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #295
You mean all those double blind tests we've been finding out are rigged to give new meds Lionessa Jul 2012 #138
Links, please. MineralMan Jul 2012 #143
Are you accusing the University of Washington, one of Bastyr's collaborators, pnwmom Jul 2012 #232
Yes, but we also need more naturalistic research, to try to understand qualitatively significant fac patrice Jul 2012 #149
I'm all for research. MineralMan Jul 2012 #151
Absolutely. There's no way to share it if it isn't. There must be some kind of connecting commonalit patrice Jul 2012 #152
What's a shame is that you haven't bothered to find out about the research that IS being done. pnwmom Jul 2012 #231
Do you know what they call Alternative Medicine that's been proved to work? Ian David Jul 2012 #54
Really? MadHound Jul 2012 #78
And do you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proven to work, Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #106
and quackery. uppityperson Jul 2012 #107
I guess you missed the proven effective part. n/t Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #142
No, I haven't. Since massage therapy now has studies proving effectiveness for some uppityperson Jul 2012 #145
If it is effective, it is not, by definition, quackery. Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #154
You two are agreeing underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #164
Oh! Oops. Apologies to uppity and thanks to you. Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #168
Proving not proved Godhumor Jul 2012 #157
I can't even get an apology posted right today. ^ look up there ^. n/t Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #187
I've been offline a while. We are agreeing and no problems, was being too curt nt uppityperson Jul 2012 #193
+1 underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #119
Woo-hoo, big pharma gets another boost! polichick Jul 2012 #3
No, subsidized CAM is being reduced or wiped out, which is a boost to all of us Godhumor Jul 2012 #4
Lots of snake oil coming from big pharma, too. Zalatix Jul 2012 #11
Withdrawn drugs is comparable to mandates funding CAM? Godhumor Jul 2012 #14
Thalidomide is being used for many people with very serious illnesses MattBaggins Jul 2012 #236
Godhumor, you are barking up the tree here on DU Patiod Jul 2012 #32
Did you explain to them how many universes one needs for a C100 dilution? MattBaggins Jul 2012 #237
Then there's some of us who take heed of Quackwatch and Zalatix Jul 2012 #266
Just because Big Pharma needs strict policing doesn't mean Big Snake Oil is OK Patiod Jul 2012 #312
I love quackwatch but have found untrue non-sources "facts" there which lead me to uppityperson Jul 2012 #288
Exactly. Who cares about nutrition, vitamins, minerals, and all those pnwmom Jul 2012 #13
Absolutely, naturopaths should not have protected subsidized mandates Godhumor Jul 2012 #16
Your ignorance is showing. Medical doctors in Washington often recommend naturopaths. pnwmom Jul 2012 #23
Which is the C in CAM, and is not even remotely medically necessary or even useful Godhumor Jul 2012 #27
Sorry, but I've had better luck trusting my M.D.'s here, and their referrals, pnwmom Jul 2012 #38
And, I'm glad the country will be trusting scietific rigor instead of pseudoscience Godhumor Jul 2012 #43
If scientific rigor were the criteria pscot Jul 2012 #49
They can. Bastyr University has been actively engaged in research for years, in partnership pnwmom Jul 2012 #51
Yeah, no. Bastyr is infamous within the medical world for its pseudoscience Godhumor Jul 2012 #62
Right, you speak for the entire medical world -- except for the N.I.H., the University of Washington pnwmom Jul 2012 #70
Google Bastyr quackery, it may prove enlightening Godhumor Jul 2012 #74
Why, so I can read posts by a bunch of ill-informed blowhards? n/t pnwmom Jul 2012 #129
Yea, that's being open minded. Confusious Jul 2012 #222
Seems your much loved bastyr Confusious Jul 2012 #218
OK. When those studies are done and reported, MineralMan Jul 2012 #283
Why wait for that? Bastyr's researchers have been publishing for decades. pnwmom Jul 2012 #293
Actually, I read a couple of completed studies she was MineralMan Jul 2012 #299
"Some benefit was shown." In the world of cancer studies, that kind of result is considered pnwmom Jul 2012 #300
Meditation and massage are not part of what I consider to be MineralMan Jul 2012 #302
Are M.D. allergists also "woo woo"? Those allergy shots with the tiny amounts of allergens pnwmom Jul 2012 #303
Those allergists are not using homeopathetic MineralMan Jul 2012 #304
I believe in good nutrition and even some LiberalLoner Jul 2012 #84
Oh, you mean the vitamins and minerals that are unregulated by the FDA? Zoeisright Jul 2012 #219
Big pharma at least provides stuff that has an effect Scootaloo Jul 2012 #26
Folic acid during pregnancy has greatly reduced spina bifida, but it wasn't conventional pnwmom Jul 2012 #46
You're missing the point Scootaloo Jul 2012 #60
No, you are. The people I've been arguing with are those who lump naturopathy and acupuncture pnwmom Jul 2012 #65
There's a reason, too, now that I look into it... Scootaloo Jul 2012 #75
Are you supporting Naturopathy or botanical medicine? MattBaggins Jul 2012 #241
I'm supporting the work of Bastyr Naturopathic University and its trained practitioners, pnwmom Jul 2012 #253
Bastyr is about a reputable as Bob Jones MattBaggins Jul 2012 #256
That is completely and utterly false to try and say MattBaggins Jul 2012 #238
I never said it was "unaware of folic acid." They didn't recommend the standard use of pnwmom Jul 2012 #255
Going to have to disagree with you MattBaggins Jul 2012 #260
Here's a history of folic acid research by the medical community: MineralMan Jul 2012 #308
Indeed Oilwellian Jul 2012 #31
Here's the thing....you don't actually need an acupuncturist. jeff47 Jul 2012 #245
I see the woo-woos are already whining. Odin2005 Jul 2012 #5
I see the big pharma fans are out in force. n/t pnwmom Jul 2012 #24
Oh no! The taxpayers won't pay for your sugar pills! backscatter712 Jul 2012 #28
You are comparing apples and oranges. pnwmom Jul 2012 #48
At least vitamins have some beneficial effects. backscatter712 Jul 2012 #93
I know you are right Mimosa Jul 2012 #265
no they are not MattBaggins Jul 2012 #243
Some do, true. But many do not. Like MD's that over prescribe. There are some unscrupulous doctors uppityperson Jul 2012 #285
Name Calling and and Either/Or Fallacies means you've lost the argument.... Moonwalk Jul 2012 #163
And post #5 isn't name calling MagickMuffin Jul 2012 #181
I think you meant to reply here since this is the name calling uppityperson Jul 2012 #198
Check the context, please. The person I was responding to had just used the term "woo-woos." pnwmom Jul 2012 #227
No, science fans Confusious Jul 2012 #225
Empiricism, the scientific method: These are my gods. Their magic is STRONG. nt Poll_Blind Jul 2012 #7
+1 LiberalLoner Jul 2012 #10
I'll say Tsiyu Jul 2012 #15
+1,000,000! magical thyme Jul 2012 #47
Those drugs are magic. underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #166
They turn a lot of people into *dead* around here Tsiyu Jul 2012 #189
We could always replace it with chinese "medicine" MattBaggins Jul 2012 #244
Herbals are by definition derived from plants Art_from_Ark Jul 2012 #248
Fixed MattBaggins Jul 2012 #251
I will agree about the Chinese medicines derived from animal products Art_from_Ark Jul 2012 #254
People say a lot of things MattBaggins Jul 2012 #258
I'm sure there are studies about the efficacy of Chinese herbal medicines in Japan Art_from_Ark Jul 2012 #262
Brushing your teeth is the number one way to prevent periodontitis. MattBaggins Jul 2012 #273
Actually, flossing is better at preventing periodontitis. Besides which, he said "treat". uppityperson Jul 2012 #286
Actually brushing and flossing MattBaggins Jul 2012 #292
And eating right and using good toothpaste, and good genes, and lots of other things too. uppityperson Jul 2012 #310
Strawman Tsiyu Jul 2012 #267
Bastyr University does research on naturopathic medicine. pnwmom Jul 2012 #17
best i can tell my insurance does not cover alternative medicine fizzgig Jul 2012 #20
I reject Obamacare beacause Woody Woodpecker Jul 2012 #21
You reject the Affordable Care Act because of THAT??? Zoeisright Jul 2012 #220
I am glad massage therapists are doing scientific studies so massage therapy may be continued. uppityperson Jul 2012 #33
But it would move from CAM to accepted medicinal practice when proven effective Godhumor Jul 2012 #37
Your definition of CAM is "unprovable crap"? Oh. nt uppityperson Jul 2012 #41
Complementary and Alternative Medicine is defined as such Godhumor Jul 2012 #56
I'd like to see a link to a reputable source with that definition vs your definition. Thank you. uppityperson Jul 2012 #57
Sure Godhumor Jul 2012 #67
Thanks for the link but it says nothing about CAM being "crap" or unprovable or validating your defn uppityperson Jul 2012 #80
Well, why would the people representing it call it crap? Godhumor Jul 2012 #87
You generalize too much. My massages are not "relaxing and feel great". Yes, I'm a Western med & CAM uppityperson Jul 2012 #94
No, my headline was that they wouldn't call it crap Godhumor Jul 2012 #96
Another fail. Here is what AMTA does say, and links to research now, 2012, not 1997 "AMTA booklet". uppityperson Jul 2012 #103
"Realxing, relief of aches, and feel good" sounds like a lot of prescriptions you seem ok with uppityperson Jul 2012 #110
I have not talked about any prescribed drugs other that normal umbrella prescription coverage Godhumor Jul 2012 #121
why are prescriptions that are "Realxing, relief of aches, and feel good" ok with you? uppityperson Jul 2012 #125
I'm not sure what you're trying to get me to say, sorry Godhumor Jul 2012 #130
You continue to ignore what I write to counter your massage assertions. uppityperson Jul 2012 #141
Your proof maintains massage as therapy for HIV/AIDS victims, autism spectrum, etc. Godhumor Jul 2012 #148
You have no understanding easttexaslefty Jul 2012 #165
Oh good, point me to the empirical studies that say so Godhumor Jul 2012 #171
NOTHING was said about "permanently healing scar tissue" in ETL's comment. underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #178
oh so broken down scar tissue comes back? Godhumor Jul 2012 #179
IF you had any understanding of the subject you'd know better than to ask that. underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #184
Had to go find where you pulled that excerpt Godhumor Jul 2012 #192
Here from burnsurgerydotorg website underseasurveyor Jul 2012 #196
Thanks. Godhumor Jul 2012 #202
You deny something works, then shown proof you still disagree and want to leave. Hahaha uppityperson Jul 2012 #215
Range of motion improves after massage in children with burns: A pilot study uppityperson Jul 2012 #203
I didn't say that easttexaslefty Jul 2012 #213
What medical books would you suggest for finding this? MattBaggins Jul 2012 #245
How's this? easttexaslefty Jul 2012 #280
Yes getting people to relax and move injured joints is sound medicine MattBaggins Jul 2012 #282
Physical Therapists use it also. It does "actually exist". uppityperson Jul 2012 #290
Here. How about when a PT does it? Are physical therapists also Crap? uppityperson Jul 2012 #214
You answered my last question. "Can you do any of that or will you now try and deflect...?" Deflect. uppityperson Jul 2012 #200
Not happening Godhumor Jul 2012 #209
Deflect again. AMA have no scientific standing either since it, like AMTA is a professional organiza uppityperson Jul 2012 #211
FWIW, some of the stuff associated with mt and body work bugs me a LOT uppityperson Jul 2012 #216
Lung cancer "Complementary therapies have an increasingly important role in the control of symptoms uppityperson Jul 2012 #205
So you think pain medicine is crap also since it only helps with aches. Gotcha. thanks for clarifyin uppityperson Jul 2012 #206
As I understand: it will identify what is more valid and what is less valid & under what variables. patrice Jul 2012 #36
Exactly, so CAM disappears, but those that are proven effective become actual medical work Godhumor Jul 2012 #39
These are HUGE questions especially amongst the elderly. The answers MUST come from research that is patrice Jul 2012 #61
It's about time, too. n/t Ian David Jul 2012 #52
Acupuncture has been used for 8000 years. Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2012 #58
Time is not indicative of effectiveness Godhumor Jul 2012 #77
And there you show your prejudices or would it be ignorance? uppityperson Jul 2012 #83
Neither. How does acupuncture work without refering to a non-tangible energy flow? Godhumor Jul 2012 #118
Both. Educate yourself. Scientific terms? Ok. Try here for starts... Oh dang, "mystical" is missing. uppityperson Jul 2012 #123
Changing from Qi to electromagnetic field is not scientic terms Godhumor Jul 2012 #153
That 1 word is all you take away?Try neurotransmitters, neurohormones, nerves, hypothalamic-pituitar uppityperson Jul 2012 #195
Lot's of nice medical terms there MattBaggins Jul 2012 #250
How does that work if the needles don't cause pain and never overcome the receptor thresholds MattBaggins Jul 2012 #249
All sensory receptors are not pain receptors. If they are in you, I feel sorry because you must be uppityperson Jul 2012 #284
Lol MattBaggins Jul 2012 #291
I'd call it Scientific Reasoning MattBaggins Jul 2012 #247
Thousands of years of practice do not necessarily add up to mysticism. scubadude Jul 2012 #182
Except acupuncture had been study, and it doesn't work Godhumor Jul 2012 #197
Even if what you say is true, you still do not address the balance of my post. scubadude Jul 2012 #257
"It's been tested in the real world far more than many other treatments." Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #177
THIS Daemonaquila Jul 2012 #190
The PATIENT CENTERED Outcomes Research Institute, i.e. the PP in the PPACA patrice Jul 2012 #69
As far as CAM goes.. ananda Jul 2012 #76
Thats a real shame fredamae Jul 2012 #81
Don't call what isn't as though it were. Igel Jul 2012 #82
Until ACA truly hits in 2014, everything is potential Godhumor Jul 2012 #95
Finally! Deep13 Jul 2012 #86
Health care plan at work covers abelenkpe Jul 2012 #88
In Canada, most provinces don't provide much if any coverage for this stuff JBoy Jul 2012 #89
no more coverage for medical marijuana? eShirl Jul 2012 #91
Replies re “alternative medicine” challenge acupuncture and chiropractic practices but IMO more harm jody Jul 2012 #97
Vioxx. Not just ineffective. Deadly. nashville_brook Jul 2012 #204
Look through a Physician's ohheckyeah Jul 2012 #99
+1000 uppityperson Jul 2012 #104
Where did those statistics come from? cpwm17 Jul 2012 #272
I thought I posted the link - ohheckyeah Jul 2012 #294
Coverage can be ofered even if it isn't required; hedgehog Jul 2012 #105
Which is fine, it is being required to offer that was the issue n/t Godhumor Jul 2012 #115
It's threads like this that I miss the UNREC feature for bbgrunt Jul 2012 #116
THANK YOU! I've been feeling as if I've wandered into the wrong site lately. progressivebydesign Jul 2012 #122
I can take the differences; it's the meanness of it all that is overwhelming. I wonder if there patrice Jul 2012 #137
Proof vs. Belief is always a topic that stretches both sides Godhumor Jul 2012 #155
I taught Psychology, as Science, for high school. Human behavior and mental processes patrice Jul 2012 #162
+ + + + + + + n/t FedUpWithIt All Jul 2012 #240
What is considered "alternative"? JDPriestly Jul 2012 #132
Trashing thread. closeupready Jul 2012 #136
Thanks for letting us know! n/t Godhumor Jul 2012 #144
I find the so called skeptics adherence to their faith based beliefs Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #150
All of us need to free ourselves and then try to collaborate on how to proceed. And I do mean "need" patrice Jul 2012 #156
Exactly. n/t Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #269
Faith-based science is an oxymoron cpwm17 Jul 2012 #217
You're absolutely right, but this has nothing to do with liberal or conservative. Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #268
I am going home and stepping out for a bit. Will be on to check replies late tonight Godhumor Jul 2012 #158
Good. sagat Jul 2012 #161
Good. 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #174
Fine by me. Daemonaquila Jul 2012 #186
I'm happy to see it won't subsidize expensive quackery bhikkhu Jul 2012 #199
We should allow a little bit of coverage in this area simply to admit we don't know everything. limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #259
Chiropractic and acupuncture are NOT "pseudoscientific health care" emsimon33 Jul 2012 #261
There is no such thing as Allopathic medicine MattBaggins Jul 2012 #279
"Allopathic Medicine" is woo talk coined by a homeopath cpwm17 Jul 2012 #281
Healthier life style yes, no to everything else 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #289
I'm amused and bored at the same time Tsiyu Jul 2012 #271
i suffer from chronic body thetans arely staircase Jul 2012 #301
Yes, under the pseudo-religion clause. MineralMan Jul 2012 #305
down with OT III arely staircase Jul 2012 #309
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Wonderful overlooked fact...»Reply #280