General Discussion

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)

62. Heroism is defined by actions

Reply to Luminous Animal (Original post)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 09:28 AM

Jul 2012

Were there men fighting for both the Confederacy and Nazi Germany who were brave and valorous? Yes. Were there men fighting for the Union and the Allies who committed war crimes? Yes. See: Sherman and his march to the sea. Sherman engaged in collective punishment and the deliberate targeting of civilians. By modern standards, this constitutes a war crime.

A little anecdote for you: my great-great-great-grandfather was a farmer from Clayton County, Georgia. He joined the Confederate Army in the spring of 1864, when he was 46 years old and past military age, because his home was right in the path of Sherman's march. He didn't join to fight for slavery, or secession, but to fight for his home and family. Is that heroic? I don't know. Would you do the same thing in the same situation? I probably would, personally.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

156 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Nazi war hero. Confederate war hero. [View all] Luminous Animal Jul 2012 OP

Not sure. But the answer is presumably the same as for "Is there a hero of the Iraq war?" redgreenandblue Jul 2012 #1

Unfortunately, I'd have to say no. With out a doubt there are Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #4

there is so long as there's a culture remaining that venerates said 'heroes'. i'd say there is in HiPointDem Jul 2012 #2

yup same as there are heroes in all winning and losing sides loli phabay Jul 2012 #3

Precisely Sherman A1 Jul 2012 #6

I acknowledge my family's slave holding past. Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #11

Lee was commanding an army and was fighting for his state, same as generals like Rommel etc loli phabay Jul 2012 #12

I would think the Welsh would consider him a hero as well for fighting a common enemy. geardaddy Jul 2012 #69

Actually, Lee was offered command of the UNION army and turned it down. arbusto_baboso Jul 2012 #75

The Moors respected El Cid... a la izquierda Jul 2012 #114

yup same as lee was respected and rommel and others loli phabay Jul 2012 #119

But Lee did not command Union soldiers... a la izquierda Jul 2012 #135

I always thought Lee served in the federal army before taking command of the army of nova loli phabay Jul 2012 #144

You are right sarisataka Jul 2012 #145

as i thought, so hes kinda exactly like el cid in this regard, thanks loli phabay Jul 2012 #146

Oh for god's sake.... a la izquierda Jul 2012 #149

well both ultimately fought against their previous employer so the comparison is pretty good loli phabay Jul 2012 #152

We are sympatico at the first part of your statement, but not all the way through: freshwest Jul 2012 #90

You know Sherman A1 Jul 2012 #97

You know... I am a dissident now and I would have been a dissident then. Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #112

Good for You Sherman A1 Jul 2012 #113

What an utterly idiotic comparison. aquart Jul 2012 #140

The reason why I asked is that even though the South lost, as a cultre.., Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #7

Where are their graves located? Zalatix Jul 2012 #8

I know. But why do you ask? Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #13

he dosent have one, not sure why you ascribe to Lee being the same as hitler loli phabay Jul 2012 #14

Jefferson Davis = Hitler Zalatix Jul 2012 #17

probuably a better comparison but i would say magnitudes of difference. loli phabay Jul 2012 #19

Davis and Lee should have been destroyed, They should have been lead from Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #18

okay i guess its not a discussion you want rather some sort of wierd one upmanship loli phabay Jul 2012 #20

You'll get the hang of it Capt. Obvious Jul 2012 #39

We do not do that in this country obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #56

I don't think that Lee committed suicide LanternWaste Jul 2012 #57

The KGB threw his ashes in a river hifiguy Jul 2012 #68

regardless of your thoughts on it, a large chunk of your fellow americans dont see it that way loli phabay Jul 2012 #10

No, Lee is not a Hitler figure. arbusto_baboso Jul 2012 #76

The very notion that loyalty to the US trumps loyalty to your state-- eridani Jul 2012 #115

question is where does loyalty lie. if you ar scots is it scotland or the UK loli phabay Jul 2012 #121

^^ This. Lee's loyalty was to Virginia, which *was* his country. gkhouston Jul 2012 #148

DU seriously needs a hyperbole jar. The servers would be platinum-plated in hours. (nt) Posteritatis Jul 2012 #123

So prove me wrong, smartass. arbusto_baboso Jul 2012 #132

... And a fallacy jar, to diamond-stud any peripherals. (nt) Posteritatis Jul 2012 #133

No, Lee was a Sophie's Choice figure. Uncle Joe Jul 2012 #134

not sure you are quite accurate with your description Bluerthanblue Jul 2012 #126

It's kind of nice to consider what side you are fighting for... Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #15

no it makes no difference when it comes to heroics which comes down to individual deeds loli phabay Jul 2012 #16

Apparenty, some people had morals, because (you know) they fought for the other side, Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #30

Too bad their morals had nothing to do with ending slavery Capt. Obvious Jul 2012 #40

Sorry, no one who fought to uphold slavery can EVER be a hero in my book. Zoeisright Jul 2012 #147

The North was certainly not fighting for "freedom" metalbot Jul 2012 #80

perfectly said- Bluerthanblue Jul 2012 #128

If the South ends up winning, there will be a great many Confederate War heroes. n/t dogknob Jul 2012 #5

Jefferson Davis is considered a hero where I live. Selatius Jul 2012 #9

Might as well have the nazi flag flying high...Jeesh, Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #27

Post removed Post removed Jul 2012 #21

That's kind of an extreme position to take, don't you think? Selatius Jul 2012 #25

maybe he saved a bunch of guys or something. limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #22

Who? Hitler or Lee? Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #23

Carson McCullers you know the guy who was the point of the original post. loli phabay Jul 2012 #24

Carson McCollers. A WOMAN. Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #28

Carson McCullers is a women as well i think, who is McCollers? loli phabay Jul 2012 #29

Second cousins. Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #32

Bravo witty answer :) loli phabay Jul 2012 #33

I meant Carson McCullers great grand father limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #26

i think its the deed thats heroic regardless of the uniform loli phabay Jul 2012 #31

So, then, were the terrorists that killed and maimed a bunch of us on 9/11 heroes also? Zorra Jul 2012 #53

I'm sure Pol Pot had his heroes/martyrs too. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #92

No Confusious Jul 2012 #101

Is there any such thing as a Confederate war hero? Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #34

In the Trojan war, were there heroes on the Trojan side? tclambert Jul 2012 #35

It's not about "win or lose". It is about which side was morally correct. redgreenandblue Jul 2012 #38

each side has heroes because in a war each side believes they are morally correct... dionysus Jul 2012 #47

regardless, there are objective standards. redgreenandblue Jul 2012 #50

it's not saying the nazis were on the right side or anything. in a generic sense, if someone does dionysus Jul 2012 #88

I don't think that's true. Do you consider John Kerry a war hero? Marr Jul 2012 #73

Morally correct in war? That's an iffy proposition from the start. tclambert Jul 2012 #100

Yeah, but isn't that close to moral relativism? redgreenandblue Jul 2012 #154

There could be... SkyDaddy7 Jul 2012 #36

This message was self-deleted by its author alcibiades_mystery Jul 2012 #37

I would imagine that it's less because they furthered the cause Lawlbringer Jul 2012 #41

NO! If you were a Confederate you were a TRAITOR. Odin2005 Jul 2012 #42

8 guess it depends if you believe people have a right to fight against what they believe they dont w loli phabay Jul 2012 #151

It depends on your point of view slackmaster Jul 2012 #43

Can soldiers on the losing side fight with bravery and honor? Nye Bevan Jul 2012 #44

Neither soldiers on the winning or losing side can fight with honor - bravery maybe, but not honor 1-Old-Man Jul 2012 #45

I believe that the young conscripts who landed on the Normandy beaches fought with honor. Nye Bevan Jul 2012 #49

I beg to differ Spoonman Jul 2012 #51

As I've said before..... PavePusher Jul 2012 #142

There's no description of his "heroic" act(s) Spoonman Jul 2012 #46

A war hero is defined by an act of valor kctim Jul 2012 #48

so an act of valor within an unjust cause is heroic? redgreenandblue Jul 2012 #54

If a member of the Wehrmacht risked his life to save his fellow soldiers obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #58

Would you consider a German national holiday honoring Wehrmacht soldiers appropriate then? redgreenandblue Jul 2012 #61

Oh yes, I TOTALLY said that obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #117

The problem is that very few "acts of heroism" in warfare revolve around saving someone. redgreenandblue Jul 2012 #153

Topic is "war" hero kctim Jul 2012 #60

Referring to the dictionary definition of heroic, yes. Marengo Jul 2012 #136

Yes Marrah_G Jul 2012 #52

Yes. OneTenthofOnePercent Jul 2012 #55

Russell said it best: Lizzie Poppet Jul 2012 #59

+1 That's really good, thanks. Zorra Jul 2012 #66

Heroism is defined by actions Spider Jerusalem Jul 2012 #62

+1 Go Vols Jul 2012 #93

Great Great Grandfather from NC Sherman A1 Jul 2012 #96

Sherman was hailed as a hero and liberator by many southern newspapers at the time. ieoeja Jul 2012 #156

My problem with Lee is that he considered himself a Virginian rather than as an American. libinnyandia Jul 2012 #63

You can't take modern concepts and superimpose COLGATE4 Jul 2012 #70

And that is why my great-great grandfather died. The Constitution was a document for Americans, libinnyandia Jul 2012 #74

What's your point? COLGATE4 Jul 2012 #94

My great-great grandfather fought as an American working to keep the United States united. Lee libinnyandia Jul 2012 #95

Well, seeing as it's now COLGATE4 Jul 2012 #116

This could go on. You don't know how my ancestor felt. I know he died to keep thiis country libinnyandia Jul 2012 #118

i think.everyone thinks of themselves as natives of a state loli phabay Jul 2012 #122

In the UK the people were at one time part of different countries. The ? I ask is:is it more libinnyandia Jul 2012 #130

If you don't think there is some serious regionalism in the UK... PavePusher Jul 2012 #143

You're completely missing COLGATE4 Jul 2012 #125

Why did people volunteer to go to war during the Civil war, not after? If they had not thoght of libinnyandia Jul 2012 #129

Because they followed their states, towns, family and friends to war, entire regiments were made up Uncle Joe Jul 2012 #131

They fought as Americans. Listening to the Battle Cry of Freedom. The Union Forever. libinnyandia Jul 2012 #137

The vast majority of those Americans followed the direction of their elected state governments. Uncle Joe Jul 2012 #138

Your perspective was settled by the Civil War. Posteritatis Jul 2012 #124

The same can be said for the majority of people from every other state, including the North. Uncle Joe Jul 2012 #79

Yes. Iggo Jul 2012 #64

What a great thread... The Midway Rebel Jul 2012 #65

Most of the soldiers in both cases were conscripts. Not heroes. Not villains. Lots of boys. nt Romulox Jul 2012 #67

You've got it. xmas74 Jul 2012 #104

Well, I'd go with German war hero 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #71

That's an interesting question. I'd have to say yes. Marr Jul 2012 #72

It's all a matter of perspective, I guess RZM Jul 2012 #77

Morality is easy with 20/20 hindsight. nt rrneck Jul 2012 #78

Yes they might be heroes for their own side. But I wouldn't honor them for it. NYC Liberal Jul 2012 #81

As someone who was born and still living in the South I have no respect for the Confederacy. white_wolf Jul 2012 #82

One Confederate "Hero": Nathan Bedford Forrest, war criminal and founder of the KKK. backscatter712 Jul 2012 #83

Ironically even Forrest changed his views, he also disbanded the KKK in 1869 Uncle Joe Jul 2012 #84

+1 Dawson Leery Jul 2012 #86

Another one, General Wheeler, later fought in the Spanish-American War. Kaleva Jul 2012 #109

the never ending south bashing threads on DU cwydro Jul 2012 #85

"Confederacy" is to "South" what "Nazi Regime" is to "Germany" scheming daemons Jul 2012 #89

Yeah, that raised my eyebrow too. 2ndAmForComputers Jul 2012 #99

To one who considers himself a patriot to the US, "confederate war hero" is an oxymoron. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #91

This post seems to imply "Confederacy" and "South" are largely the same thing. 2ndAmForComputers Jul 2012 #98

Usually posts about an old war cwydro Jul 2012 #105

You assume too much. 2ndAmForComputers Jul 2012 #106

No, there is not me b zola Jul 2012 #87

Hero is a word our culture needs to dump FiveGoodMen Jul 2012 #102

Why not? xmas74 Jul 2012 #103

Of course there were confederate heros. Marinedem Jul 2012 #107

There were "Indian Wars" heroes too Go Vols Jul 2012 #110

By law, Confederate veterans have equal status as any Union veteran Kaleva Jul 2012 #108

A question for those who answer "No".... Jim Lane Jul 2012 #111

Yes, there is a such a thing. Fawke Em Jul 2012 #120

As a practical matter, no to the former and yes to the latter Hippo_Tron Jul 2012 #127

Yes. Now think hard how you define "hero." aquart Jul 2012 #139

A very interesting question(s) sarisataka Jul 2012 #141

Real heroes were those Union generals (and regular soldiers) who went raccoon Jul 2012 #150

Consider CSA Sergeant Richard Rowland Kirkland, known as "The Angel of Marye's Heights" VOX Jul 2012 #155