General Discussion

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)

54. It is naive to the point of absurdity to imagine that anyone else who would have been president at

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 10:53 AM

Jul 2012

that time would have followed a policy that would have been denounced by both parties as "surrendering Vietnam to the Communist." No Kennedy would not have done that either. Whatever he may have personally wanted to do - or anyone else who have been president at that time would personally have wanted to do - the pressure to escalate the Vietnam war would have been irresistible because of established foreign policy assumptions that held the entire foreign policy establishment of both parties hostage.

Certainly on domestic matters for the vast majority of ordinary Americans and certainly the poor and disinfranchised - Lyndon Baines Johnson was by far the best President America ever had, even if no one knew it at the time. Imagine the psychology of someone who was poor and disinfranchised in those days. They could go to sleep at night knowing that the President of the United States was on their side and was pulling out all stops to help them.

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LBJ Was Horrible. Nixon Was Worse. [View all] SoDesuKa Jul 2012 OP

Umm, I think you need to study a bit more Vietnam history... LBJ did NOT start that war... hlthe2b Jul 2012 #1

I lived in Appalachia as a kid during the War on Poverty. kentuck Jul 2012 #4

Agree...Vietnam was his curse. Civil Rights & war on Poverty was his (at least partial) redemption. hlthe2b Jul 2012 #5

+1 Gormy Cuss Jul 2012 #149

+1 for mixed bag. limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #176

Definitions SoDesuKa Jul 2012 #6

LBJ did not start the war-- he escalated. That was a horrendous, tragic mistake... hlthe2b Jul 2012 #7

The "War" Started During the Johnson Years SoDesuKa Jul 2012 #11

Historians acknowledge the war started with Eisenhower and Kennedy.. hlthe2b Jul 2012 #16

Nameless "Historians" SoDesuKa Jul 2012 #20

You are just being silly.. But feel free. hlthe2b Jul 2012 #21

Did Eisenhower Start the War in Vietnam? SoDesuKa Jul 2012 #22

Truman sent military advisors before Eisenhower or Kennedy. See #82. None of them, of course, sent AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #83

The war in vietnam started in 1945, when ho chi minh's provisional government declared indepen- HiPointDem Jul 2012 #109

Ho Chih Minh begged Truman for US support hifiguy Jul 2012 #161

There was never a "war" with Viet Nam, congress never declared War MiniMe Jul 2012 #31

Bingo. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #139

There were American combat fatalities in Vietnam before 1965. Advisors' blood coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #52

There never was a declaration of WAR. immoderate Jul 2012 #151

LBJ did NOT start the Vietnam War obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #25

LBJ DID start the Vietnam War. former9thward Jul 2012 #65

And before the Gulf of Tonkin incident, he was engaging in a military build-up for the land war AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #77

SEATO and republican paranoia made it inevitable. Domino theories and some such shit roguevalley Jul 2012 #129

oh my. so a war called a police action isn't a war even though it is one and people die roguevalley Jul 2012 #128

JFK started the Vietnam War. nt Honeycombe8 Jul 2012 #147

You're tossing the baby with the bath water lapislzi Jul 2012 #32

LBJ rode on the civil-rights' coat-tails of Truman, Eisenhower, and Kennedy. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #92

LBJ's 'naval intelligence' job was in the naval reserve, first inspecting shipyards in the us & HiPointDem Jul 2012 #112

Your "expertise" regarding LBJ's naval service seems to be at odds with what is reported AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #145

The Silver Star and LBJ Octafish Jul 2012 #167

"Appointed Lieutenant Commander in the United States Naval Reserve on 21 June 1940" HiPointDem Jul 2012 #170

I repeat since you didn't seem to understand it the first time, "your 'expertise' regarding LBJ's AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #182

his job *was* in the naval reserve. you don't seem to get what the naval (navy) reserve is. HiPointDem Jul 2012 #183

You don't seem to understand what the Department of the Navy has posted on their web site: AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #186

i understand it quite well. you don't. plus you made the false claim that johnson was a naval HiPointDem Jul 2012 #188

No. You falsely claimed by implication that all Naval intelligence officers are "cloak and dagger" AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #190

Anyone who believes that all Naval intelligence officers are "cloak & dagger" AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #189

he didn't have to sign the legislation. He did it anyway conceding the south to the pigs roguevalley Jul 2012 #132

That's an incredibly simplistic view of LBJ. kiva Jul 2012 #98

No, military advisors were first sent in by Truman. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #82

Three Words: Tonkin Gulf Resolution Taverner Jul 2012 #102

Yup, and two more : Warren Commission. Waiting For Everyman Jul 2012 #120

agreed. The Great Society was a miracle and so was the civil rights and medicare roguevalley Jul 2012 #127

This is true. OP doesn't know history. LBJ also pushed & signed Civil Rights Act. Honeycombe8 Jul 2012 #146

True. Yet, how can the good outweigh the deaths of 59,000 American troops and millions of civilians? Octafish Jul 2012 #163

Johnson was a crude and often myopic man who had brilliant political skills, simply because struggle4progress Jul 2012 #2

Ethical Giant SoDesuKa Jul 2012 #8

Father was sent tsuki Jul 2012 #17

TDY = Temporary Duty SoDesuKa Jul 2012 #23

Eisenhower was familiar with LBJ and his M-I-C financial supporters. He was warning us about the AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #86

Eisenhower was happy to consort with the military-industrial complex during his term. He was HiPointDem Jul 2012 #115

This is true, but he may have turned a leaf towards the end. Selatius Jul 2012 #117

we will never know why he said those words leaving office. but i will say it's easier to say them HiPointDem Jul 2012 #121

We do know why Eisenhower said those words. He was opposed to optional wars and war profiteering. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #150

Ike had a profound distrust of Pentagon brass. hifiguy Jul 2012 #159

I have all of Dad's records, and there is no TDY tsuki Jul 2012 #103

No--it does not appear on your summary of billets held. MADem Jul 2012 #131

ALWAYS worth a re-read... lapislzi Jul 2012 #33

Concise, insightful, and accurate lapislzi Jul 2012 #49

How he implemented the Civil Rights Act kemah Jul 2012 #56

Well, gee... these guys also gave us Medicare, Medicaid, the EPA... TreasonousBastard Jul 2012 #3

That's what I was going to say. It will be a long time before we know the full effect of the Reagan/ libinnyandia Jul 2012 #88

Actually... loyalsister Jul 2012 #93

OK, ya got me-- forgot about the ADA. TreasonousBastard Jul 2012 #100

We could probhably find some little nugget from Hoover loyalsister Jul 2012 #108

Right on the mark struggle4progress Jul 2012 #118

He got the ball rolling on EPA. It actually started under Nixon, though eridani Jul 2012 #143

LBJ is one of my 50/50 people. Are_grits_groceries Jul 2012 #9

I get the impression he made a deal with the devil (Wall Street): yurbud Jul 2012 #168

Bush started 2 wars and made huge tax cuts... lame54 Jul 2012 #10

It worked! NeverEnuff Jul 2012 #14

Riots in the Streets SoDesuKa Jul 2012 #15

There weren't riot in the streets in the Bush years because there was NO DRAFT. Chorophyll Jul 2012 #46

what is your point? there were no "riots" under W, so W was great? He was the worst president HiPointDem Jul 2012 #119

Bad. But not worse. CanisCrocinus Jul 2012 #12

Yep, that's how I remember it too. n/t RKP5637 Jul 2012 #27

Vietnam was lbj's undoing and it undid the last great progressive president. Warren Stupidity Jul 2012 #13

I'm Reading Vol. I of Robert Caro's Iggy Jul 2012 #18

As someone said, LBJ was a mixed bag... joeybee12 Jul 2012 #19

Civil Rights? War on Poverty? obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #24

I don't remember it as all bad, not at all. n/t RKP5637 Jul 2012 #26

LBJ was a ball buster. He made sure dem's held the line. It's to bad Obama hasn't learned southernyankeebelle Jul 2012 #28

Historical Revisionism SoDesuKa Jul 2012 #29

To me, the Vietnam war was a fatal flaw for LBJ. He certainly did nothing to RKP5637 Jul 2012 #38

The commitment was before LBJ. It was Ike. southernyankeebelle Jul 2012 #50

No. Truman. See #82. Neither Truman, Eisenhower, nor Kennedy started the war in the sense that AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #87

But...but...but...that means the sainted JFK was also responsible! How can that be???!!! Tom Ripley Jul 2012 #97

JFK only wanted to send trainers to train and that was it. LBJ took it further. southernyankeebelle Jul 2012 #101

The US had been training the south vietnamese since truman. The US began spraying Agent HiPointDem Jul 2012 #124

He busted balls for years in the Senate lapislzi Jul 2012 #34

Yep, very well said. I could see LBJ with these republicans today, he would RKP5637 Jul 2012 #39

I would love to watch that happen. xmas74 Jul 2012 #72

He learned his chops for the likes of Sam Rayburn. How's that for a memory. Some of us roguevalley Jul 2012 #133

LBJ worked the Senate the way The Rock works wrestling: hifiguy Jul 2012 #158

damned right. :D roguevalley Jul 2012 #181

Yep, that's how I remember it too. I always considered LBJ a good guy except RKP5637 Jul 2012 #37

Remember he got the voting rights passed and remember what he said when it passed and it southernyankeebelle Jul 2012 #47

Obama's not an older white guy in the 1960s treestar Jul 2012 #59

No I am not talking about the war part. I am talking about how he got things done by southernyankeebelle Jul 2012 #66

It is not good to make people do things they do not want to do treestar Jul 2012 #68

Boy you need to google LBJ and see what he accomplished being a ball buster. Starting with southernyankeebelle Jul 2012 #69

It would not work now however treestar Jul 2012 #70

no. the party structure was different, that's all. and the reasons were economic. people were HiPointDem Jul 2012 #130

LBJ did landmark stuff kicking ass. Obama couldn't get jack passed even compromising. roguevalley Jul 2012 #134

No one in their right mind hifiguy Jul 2012 #160

my uncle worked for Hubert Humphrey way back when. Our family LOVED that man. roguevalley Jul 2012 #179

I met Hubert Humphrey when I was 13 hifiguy Jul 2012 #180

Yes, the Great Society was so horrible. Odin2005 Jul 2012 #30

My dad went to VN before anyone here knew where it was and my father-in-law was a trainer in the southernyankeebelle Jul 2012 #48

Obama should try to be more like LBJ tularetom Jul 2012 #35

Very well said, I often think similar. LBJ was a street fighter, and he RKP5637 Jul 2012 #41

Obama is simply not a brutal person treestar Jul 2012 #60

That's a fine way to talk about the last great progressive Democratic President (good luck... Tom Ripley Jul 2012 #36

It's a very depressing thought, but I think accurate, as you said. About the RKP5637 Jul 2012 #43

there are efforts to assign the kennedy assassination to lbj and otherwise deprecate his HiPointDem Jul 2012 #122

LBJ can never be forgiven for what he did to Vietnam cpwm17 Jul 2012 #40

And frankly IMO the US has continued on with that tradition. For a country RKP5637 Jul 2012 #42

Yes, and let's not forget that he lied to Congress in order to get authorization Jackpine Radical Jul 2012 #51

Nothing like a little revisionist history.. 99Forever Jul 2012 #44

Yet I would accept either one of them --- Chorophyll Jul 2012 #45

LBJ was a tragic figure, not a monster. hifiguy Jul 2012 #53

It is naive to the point of absurdity to imagine that anyone else who would have been president at Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #54

You cannot paint Johnson with a single brush. He gave us Medicare and the Civil Rights Act /nt still_one Jul 2012 #55

LBJ committed unprovoked mass murder against millions of men, women, and children cpwm17 Jul 2012 #58

cold war ideology was sacrosanct at that time. no one else who could possibly have been President at Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #64

True, if you disregard the fact that Goldwater was the war candidate, LBJ was the peace candidate, AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #90

Actually, Goldwater was the "nuclear annihilation candidate" while LBJ was the "cold war... Tom Ripley Jul 2012 #96

So did Congress of that time treestar Jul 2012 #61

If you were black, old, poor or sick those people didn't necessarily 'hate' LBJ WI_DEM Jul 2012 #57

What about the Black draftees? What about the Black, old, poor, or sick parents of draftees? AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #153

LBJ was a bad president for Vietnam escalation The Second Stone Jul 2012 #62

LBJ was a complicated man, Blue_In_AK Jul 2012 #63

You're right. ParkieDem Jul 2012 #67

He drove the poverty rate down, we are watching it increase today. Now that's horrible. n/t jtuck004 Jul 2012 #71

LBJ was actually a great president, apart from hjis huge errors in Viet Nam Stinky The Clown Jul 2012 #73

*sigh* Xolodno Jul 2012 #74

Only the US matters? FreeJoe Jul 2012 #75

I was there for them all. W did the most incalculable damage. Faygo Kid Jul 2012 #76

Nixon's a close 2nd for what he did to US Military in Vietnam, splitting American labor in half, & patrice Jul 2012 #80

Respectfully, we cannot recover from what Nixon did. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #148

Nixon was 100s Xs worse. Intentionally fucked with LBJ's peace efforts in order to USE patrice Jul 2012 #78

I lived through the Johnsen years marybourg Jul 2012 #79

He passed Medicare. charlyvi Jul 2012 #81

LBJ rode on the coat-tails of Kennedy with respect to Medicare. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #99

it is not even plausible that JFK could have even come close to achieving LBJ's accomplishments Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #116

You don't know your history lunatica Jul 2012 #84

"Hey, Hey, LBJ....." Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2012 #85

Racist War SoDesuKa Jul 2012 #104

I'm old enough to remember the claim that the Vietnamese didn't value their lives as much as us cpwm17 Jul 2012 #105

and what has changed, eh? every president since johnson has had their war -- or two or three or HiPointDem Jul 2012 #114

If what you say is true, what war was conducted during President Carter's term? Or Ford's? AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #155

you're correct in that there was a lull in military operations post-vietnam & post-watergate, HiPointDem Jul 2012 #172

It's wrong to say that "every president since johnson has had their war." It's good to see that you AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #184

i call supplying arms, training & logistics in support of a war war-making. ymmv. HiPointDem Jul 2012 #185

Then you are wrong again. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #187

LBJ was vile. Just look into his history. ailsagirl Jul 2012 #89

no more vile than any other us president. better than many. HiPointDem Jul 2012 #110

Ever hear of Billy Sol Estes? There's a CD set called 'The Men Who Killed Kennedy' (amazon.com) ailsagirl Jul 2012 #125

I was an adult during the johnson era. So yes, i heard of billy sol estes, because the scandal got HiPointDem Jul 2012 #126

Henry Marshall of the USDA was suicided ailsagirl Jul 2012 #135

lyndon ordered the murder -- cause billy sol said so. under a grant of immunity. okey dokey. HiPointDem Jul 2012 #137

My hometown had reached its economic, social, and population peak during their presidencies Nikia Jul 2012 #91

sounds like my hometown. reagan killed it, and i thought it couldn't get deader, but it's worse HiPointDem Jul 2012 #123

Bush Jr. & Company nearly destroyed this nation and the world economy. Dawson Leery Jul 2012 #94

Except for the Vietnam thing, Johnson was actually a decent President. backscatter712 Jul 2012 #95

LBJ was the ultimate old school Texas politician. GoneOffShore Jul 2012 #106

You are sooo wrong. Johnson did more for this country than any president since FDR. demosincebirth Jul 2012 #107

Would you make the same claim if Johnson's war victims were European, British, or American? cpwm17 Jul 2012 #156

Johnson's Viet Nam war was an optional war. His victims included Americans who were unwillingly sent AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #164

I can see that discussing anything with you would be a useless venture. nt demosincebirth Jul 2012 #174

w was worse than nixon arely staircase Jul 2012 #111

W = the worst president of mine & my parents' lifetimes. he was a disaster. HiPointDem Jul 2012 #113

i think he was the worst ever, seriously arely staircase Jul 2012 #152

Worst president in US history. hifiguy Jul 2012 #162

Raygun was worse than either LBJ or Nixon the problems we have today Raine Jul 2012 #136

Johnson gave us the Civil Rights Act. Ask any black person how that turned out? Medicare bill? Not demosincebirth Jul 2012 #175

You can make the argument that ANY President is horrible steve2470 Jul 2012 #138

It's arguable that LBJ was the consummate politician of the 20th century, 2nd only to FDR perhaps Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #140

"I thought we couldn't do no worse" William Seger Jul 2012 #141

Waist Deep in the Big Muddy SoDesuKa Jul 2012 #142

i lived during those times... madrchsod Jul 2012 #144

Eisenhower started the Vietnam war. WilliamPitt Jul 2012 #154

LBJ and Nixon were the first to adhere to the 'Money Trumps Peace' line. Octafish Jul 2012 #157

I hope this was meant satirically. Both LBJ and Nixon were pretty good on domestic issues yurbud Jul 2012 #165

PIC: IMPEACHMENT POLLS: Bush vs. Clinton vs. Nixon for historical context yurbud Jul 2012 #166

nixon & clinton scandals got non-stop press. bush got off easy in terms of press, for much worse. HiPointDem Jul 2012 #169

and yet looking at impeachment polls, the public figured it out nonetheless yurbud Jul 2012 #171

unfortunately the press didn't give the same attention to clinton's real crimes. HiPointDem Jul 2012 #173

anything you do for the rich is not a crime--ANYTHING yurbud Jul 2012 #178

LBJ brought Bill Moyers to prominence -- for that I am grateful grasswire Jul 2012 #177