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ancianita

(43,167 posts)

19. I'm not presenting the authoritarian left. I'm talking about anti-fascism, socialism and solidarity.

Tue Aug 29, 2017, 11:39 AM

Aug 2017

And how defensive violence isn't violence.

The Democratic tradition we're close to losing now rests on rule of law, being abused and eroded day by day, year by year -- witness the news -- by bad faith capitalists and racist authoritarians who want to control sweep that democratic tradition aside.

Maybe you think I don't understand that. The OP is addressing their claims that even defensive violence should be stopped. I don't think any defensive standing/fighting for their ground before neoNazi protests -- by church groups in Charlottesville, or by antifa in Portland -- is equally bad violence. When the resistance was stopped, it was by death at the hands of Nazis.

The battle of the Warsaw ghetto is one example of how fighting back doesn't make you equally evil.

I agree with Schwarzenegger who says that you're not a bigot because you fight bigots, and that "the country that defeated Hitler's armies is no place for Nazi flags." American neoNazis' premises for what they do are the same as the German Nazis' premises.

Are you saying you're against the anti-fascists? Or that in standing up to them, anyone can be guilty of equal and opposite authoritarianism?

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To The Atlantic, Media and Others Who Get Antifa Twisted [View all] ancianita Aug 2017 OP

Communists never have been and never will be authoritarian? Marengo Aug 2017 #1

Communists will, since they've been seen, in reality, to be authoritarian. Socialism is not. ancianita Aug 2017 #4

Perhaps you should amend the statement "The Left will never be authoritarian." in your OP. Marengo Aug 2017 #5

The Cuban regime is not authoritarian? Marengo Aug 2017 #7

Nope. That's the hard line clung to by old cold warrior leaders here. It's not. I've been there. ancianita Aug 2017 #14

Does the political opposition have the same level of access to the media, and the same amount... Marengo Aug 2017 #18

Cuba is a one party state, a socialist state with province representation from The People. ancianita Aug 2017 #20

Does the Cuban government allow criticism of itself in the media? Criticism from non-communist Marengo Aug 2017 #22

Why is Cuba a one-Party state? Marengo Aug 2017 #84

Socialism is The People's state, so there is no "us vs. them" political mentality. ancianita Aug 2017 #85

There is no political opposition to the one-party state in Cuba? Marengo Aug 2017 #86

There is intense discussion. No memberships. No "us vs. them" politics. Just solidarity politics. ancianita Aug 2017 #103

Disgusting. You're making excuses for communist authoritarians LittleBlue Aug 2017 #42

The laugh shows you as not only disrespectful but not understanding a thing about antifa history. ancianita Aug 2017 #46

You ever think that being a free American tourist in Cuba is different than LittleBlue Aug 2017 #75

Oh, no doubt a tourist is different! But a Spanish speaking tourist like me asks questions and gets ancianita Aug 2017 #77

No kidding. This isn't Totalitarian Underground. Expecting Rain Aug 2017 #87

... ancianita Aug 2017 #93

Eastern Europe will be surprised to hear that. DetlefK Aug 2017 #51

Just more proof that communism has shown itself as authoritarian. You're right. ancianita Aug 2017 #83

I wonder why we never have any Cubans (in Cuba) on the forum? Bonx Aug 2017 #94

Me, too. I mentioned Marco Rubio to Cubans. They laughed, said anyone who visits Cuba knows more ancianita Aug 2017 #95

Invite some of your new Cuban acquaintances to participate here. Bonx Aug 2017 #96

You're right. I should. There were eight of us, four of whom are fluent in Spanish; one English-only ancianita Aug 2017 #98

I meant invite some Cubans that are currently in Cuba to participate. Bonx Aug 2017 #99

Their problem is that 95% of the country has no Internet. It's in blackout. Partly because they ancianita Aug 2017 #101

Also, what forum is the DU equivalent for regular folks in Cuba? Bonx Aug 2017 #97

I've never seen one. I do have a two excellent links you can start with, though. ancianita Aug 2017 #100

Yeah, tell it to the 100 million killed by Communist political violence around the world Expecting Rain Aug 2017 #8

I'm not presenting the authoritarian left. I'm talking about anti-fascism, socialism and solidarity. ancianita Aug 2017 #19

There are anti-fascist elements that are as authoritarian as the fascists, such as Maoists etc. Marengo Aug 2017 #28

Of course. When we demand commitment to solidarity, we can literally 'see' both sides' provocateurs. ancianita Aug 2017 #30

Are the authoritarian and anti-democratic elements within the antifa movement as a whole being... Marengo Aug 2017 #33

From what my friends say, yes. The church and other orgs are clear headed about solidarity. ancianita Aug 2017 #35

Antifa is dirty bath water. Expecting Rain Aug 2017 #88

So what is your solution to the rise of fascism. Tell us. ancianita Aug 2017 #89

Strengthing the liberal side and electing Democrats to office. Expecting Rain Aug 2017 #90

That's it? Welp, not one person on this thread, or in DU, has expressed anything to the contrary. ancianita Aug 2017 #91

IMO Liberals don't support violent political movements that are clear enemies of liberalism. Expecting Rain Aug 2017 #92

Here is the article in case anyone wants to read it: demmiblue Aug 2017 #2

Thanks. It's best to go with the original text. ancianita Aug 2017 #3

The ones who show up at G7 events.. speaktruthtopower Aug 2017 #6

Agreed, though I'm still not sure we know the G7 ideologies they protest better than they do. ancianita Aug 2017 #11

Of course, the antifa are like heros, Progressive dog Aug 2017 #9

We've moved from refighting the primary to refighting the Spanish Civil War. yardwork Aug 2017 #10

For sure, I think we can think of a lot of anti-fascists in the arts. ancianita Aug 2017 #12

Are you familiar with George Orwell's books? yardwork Aug 2017 #13

Yes. Your point? ancianita Aug 2017 #15

Homage to Catalonia. I recommend it. Good read. yardwork Aug 2017 #23

He is at the top of my list of writers. I have The Complete Works of Orwell. ancianita Aug 2017 #27

I don't get it either. FSogol Aug 2017 #17

"Antifa" is mainly a new iteration of the '80s "radical liberal," Hortensis Aug 2017 #16

Interesting references. I distinguish decentralized socialism from centralized fascism. Antifa ancianita Aug 2017 #21

Political words change meaning over time. If it can be weaponized Hortensis Aug 2017 #24

This past English teacher and student of linguistics agrees.How words get changed is the politics of ancianita Aug 2017 #25

The so-called 'antifa' is the same old 'anarchists' who have been showing up for years! yallerdawg Aug 2017 #26

Not in Charlottesville. Not where my friends see it. One travel friend walked arm-in-arm with Cornel ancianita Aug 2017 #29

What I'm saying is... yallerdawg Aug 2017 #31

True. That, they do. Media bias is simple: give the appearance of thought for profit. ancianita Aug 2017 #36

If antifa doesn't purge it's violent members .... kwassa Aug 2017 #34

Freedom of assembly means that we ALL have to keep them out of protests. Let's be clear: ancianita Aug 2017 #38

Cornel West, the guy who sat on the Democratic Platform Committe Expecting Rain Aug 2017 #40

I'm not the only Democrat who respects him. There are plenty of black Democrats who do, too. ancianita Aug 2017 #43

Cornel West called President Obama the "first niggerized black president." Expecting Rain Aug 2017 #45

That's it? West said some words you don't like? Throw his entire history as a black Democrat ancianita Aug 2017 #47

No, Cornel West was addressing President Obama directly when he called him "niggerized." Expecting Rain Aug 2017 #48

Context is still everything--of Cornel West's life and work, and of the black tradition of critique. ancianita Aug 2017 #68

Ad hominem attacks on me are not welcome and are a violation of board rules. Expecting Rain Aug 2017 #69

You missed my point. Obama knows that West was describing context, not faulting Obama. ancianita Aug 2017 #71

That's who they were in Berkeley wryter2000 Aug 2017 #102

"Antifa is 'A major gift to the right.'"---Noam Chomsky Petrushka Aug 2017 #32

He isn't the last word on what works and what doesn't. This will sort itself out, with attention ancianita Aug 2017 #37

Everyone* stands up to Nazis Expecting Rain Aug 2017 #39

That's what you think I mean. It's not. ancianita Aug 2017 #44

Nope! Can't stand with extremists from the Left or the Right. If that's casting shade, so be it. Petrushka Aug 2017 #41

Exactly. We need a dedicated anti-fascism force in this country ck4829 Aug 2017 #50

Of, just do it with peace and non violence Not Ruth Aug 2017 #52

K&R ck4829 Aug 2017 #49

When i was growing up the word "abolitionist" was a bad word and they were dangerous people. haveahart Aug 2017 #53

History proves how large groups of people can get the language of solidarity wrong. ancianita Aug 2017 #66

Nancy Pelosi isn't an Antifa fan. jalan48 Aug 2017 #54

Right. Anyone avoids groups that try to defend against toxic racist fascism. The scene is scary, but ancianita Aug 2017 #57

You're contributing to the "many sides" argument of Trump. jalan48 Aug 2017 #58

That's as far from my intent as any antifa support can be. But please explain more what ideas are ancianita Aug 2017 #63

Do you think everyone who refers to themselves as Antifa is actually Antifa? jalan48 Aug 2017 #64

Are you refusing to elaborate on your claim? Your questions seem to imply that you feel no ancianita Aug 2017 #65

The problem as I see it is lumping all who oppose Fascism into one group-"Antifa". jalan48 Aug 2017 #67

Well, the word sounds weird, yes; likely, the word got shortened for efficiency's sake. ancianita Aug 2017 #70

OK. I came up with a name to replace "Antifa." I answered Mineral Man's suggestion: U.S. DEFENDER ancianita Aug 2017 #74

I like it! jalan48 Aug 2017 #82

Re: Your list of American anti-fascists Petrushka Aug 2017 #55

Thank you! I wonder why. It's a wikipedia page. Puzzling. ancianita Aug 2017 #59

You're welcome! But . . . considering my extensive library . . . Petrushka Aug 2017 #72

I hear ya loud and clear, lady! ancianita Aug 2017 #73

A new book called "Antifa" by Mark Bray Cal Carpenter Aug 2017 #56

Thank you! I'll be getting it today. It's great that we share readings in times of signal-to-noise ancianita Aug 2017 #61

Thank you and a HUGE K&R!!! Coventina Aug 2017 #60

... ancianita Aug 2017 #62

Rec'd and bookmarking underpants Aug 2017 #76

DURec leftstreet Aug 2017 #78

Hey, there's a helluva lot going on. No worries. I'm glad you're reading here. Thank you! ancianita Aug 2017 #80

The Atlantic took a hard right in the 80s Warpy Aug 2017 #79

So true. I used to subscribe to them both. Still love Harper's. I don't agree about EU antifascism. ancianita Aug 2017 #81

Too many people equate anti-fascism with anti-capitalism and anarchism... AntiFascist Aug 2017 #104

Yes, important points. Also, we need to focus on a model that can best secure nationwide solidarity ancianita Aug 2017 #105

Yes! And thanks for pointing to Putin's Russia as a successful form of Fascism... AntiFascist Aug 2017 #106