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Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
49. I appreciate your addressing what I actually wrote. Here are my responses.
Tue Sep 12, 2017, 12:46 AM
Sep 2017

Your first few paragraphs are about the ill-defined concept of "attacking" the Democratic Party. I say it's ill-defined because I don't see a bright line between "calling for improvement", which you admit is OK, and "attacking", which is what you attack. (Wait a minute, are you attacking Democrats who attack other Democrats because attacking Democrats is bad but you're not bad because "Mom, he started it"?) It seems to be mainly a difference of tone. I, personally, would incline to say something like "The Democratic Party should lessen its dependence on big-money donors." Others would say "The Democratic Party has become a corrupt tool of the donor class." Anyone who accepts the first statement as legitimate criticism but who rejects the second, not on its merits but for its wording, or who brands as unacceptable the very wording of the hypothetical attack on Sanders in your OP, is, IMO, exemplifying what's already become a cliché -- the snowflake. Get over it and deal with the substance. As another cliché has it, politics ain't beanbag.

You ask, "Can you be specific about these attacks {by the DLC}?" I'm not going to undertake a comprehensive history of the intraparty warfare triggered by the DLC. In a quick search, I found "Why the Democratic Party Acts The Way It Does", a review of a book by DLC founder Al From. The review quotes Bruce Babbitt, a DLC member and later a Clinton Cabinet officer, saying, "“We’re revolutionaries. We believe the Democratic Party in the last several decades has been complacent. . . ." From himself wrote that "what we hope to accomplish with the DLC is a bloodless revolution in our party." Sanders supporters who followed the defeat of 2016 by founding a group called Our Revolution are following in that tradition. On substance, I largely agree with Our Revolution and disagree with the policies the DLC pushed when it existed, but both are examples of the intra-party conflict that's inevitable in a "big tent" (OK, I promise that's my last cliché).

You conclude (your quotation from me boldfaced):

And if smears of Bernie like the ones in Hillary's book reach the point where he's finally had enough and he throws in his lot with the organizers of a new party, then no Democrat will have the ghost of a chance of winning the White House in 2020.
So Clintons comments are smears but Sanders are calling for improvement in structure and overall direction of the party.
You Just Proved My Point.


You're totally focused on personalities here. Clinton's comments aren't smears because I disagree with her about the best course for the Democratic Party. They're smears because they're misstatements of fact:

* Some can be labeled misstatements because, although no one can prove with mathematical rigor that they're false, no sensible unbiased person could believe them. I haven't read her book, either, but this charge against Bernie has been widely reported:

"His attacks caused lasting damage, making it harder to unify progressives in the general election and paving the way for Trump's 'Crooked Hillary' campaign," wrote Clinton.


Donald Trump's campaign for the Republican nomination relied heavily on personal attacks. Does she think that the guy who lit into "Crooked Ted" and "Little Marco" was suddenly going to take the high road against her in the general election? Bernie famously disdained interest in her "damn emails." His "attacks" were instead about substance. Hillary was implying that, if Bernie hadn't criticized her over the TPP and Glass-Steagall repeal, Trump would never have mentioned that the FBI was investigating her.

* Other statements in What Happened are more cut-and-dried, i.e., demonstrably false. An example cited in this video in another thread is that she apparently charged that Bernie took her ideas, on things like infrastructure and youth unemployment, and then just proposed the same thing, "only bigger." The video presents news articles showing that Bernie's proposals preceded hers. She can criticize Bernie on policy all she wants, but when she misstates facts, then some of us will say that she's spreading smears.


ETA: I just noticed your statement in the OP that "You don't see Democrats trying to primary liberal independents...." If by "liberal independents" you mean incumbent Democrats who backed Bernie, there are very few of them in the first place. One of his prominent supporters was Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard. Yes, she was primaried, and yes, this effort was met with effusive praise on DU.

As a side note, some DUers now denounce the idea of primary challenges to the more conservative Democrats because that money could be used against Republicans in the general. That anti-Gabbard thread includes a link to her primary challenger's Act Blue page but nobody seems to have raised the point about defeating Republicans.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Yeah, you posted this already! Chasstev365 Sep 2017 #1
thanks for replying Eko Sep 2017 #2
If You Did I Didn't See It Me. Sep 2017 #3
Thanks Me! Eko Sep 2017 #5
That is an utterly pedantic argument mythology Sep 2017 #10
If reversing the argument is not substantially changing it Eko Sep 2017 #14
I see this fight at DU. mjvpi Sep 2017 #4
Nope, Eko Sep 2017 #6
I believe that the quotes Saunders quotes that you are using mjvpi Sep 2017 #9
There is a lot here to unpack. Eko Sep 2017 #11
What I don't get is that *we didn't lose!* The election was stolen from us. gtar100 Sep 2017 #7
Well, Eko Sep 2017 #8
Now that I've discovered it RandomAccess Sep 2017 #12
No problems Eko Sep 2017 #15
No flames from me lunamagica Sep 2017 #13
Thanks! Eko Sep 2017 #16
Blaming others and not accepting responsibility for your own shortcomings and failures. democratisphere Sep 2017 #17
Blaming others for what? Eko Sep 2017 #18
Sanders blames the Democratic Party for his loss in the primaries. democratisphere Sep 2017 #20
You are going to write this with a straight face after the last election? m-lekktor Sep 2017 #19
Nor was that the "Sanders wing" that led to a 900 seat loss and a Fascist takeover. HughBeaumont Sep 2017 #21
And now Baucus says we need single payer leftstreet Sep 2017 #24
FAT LOT OF GOOD THAT DOES US NOW, MAX!!! HughBeaumont Sep 2017 #25
He KNEW he could NOT get 60 votes for either of those plans karynnj Sep 2017 #55
And I reiterate - THAT. SHOULD. NOT. BE. HughBeaumont Sep 2017 #56
Let's say Bernie were the chair of the Finance committee that he has never sat on in 2009 karynnj Sep 2017 #57
Except Single Payer wasn't what was being voted on. It was multi-payer. HughBeaumont Sep 2017 #58
If YOU were the chair of Finance or the majority leader karynnj Sep 2017 #62
+1 leftstreet Sep 2017 #23
Keep fighting that primary! Iggo Sep 2017 #22
Yeah, "business as usual" has been such a great selling point Warpy Sep 2017 #26
The Trump administration is an absolute failure. dchill Sep 2017 #27
Let's move on from bashing Bernie left-of-center2012 Sep 2017 #28
That sounds very much like murielm99 Sep 2017 #30
My post didn't come close to mentioning Hillary left-of-center2012 Sep 2017 #31
I didn't say you mentioned Hillary. murielm99 Sep 2017 #33
All I said is "let's move on" left-of-center2012 Sep 2017 #44
Did Bernie blame Hillary for losing the primary? angstlessk Sep 2017 #37
Correct. However... NurseJackie Sep 2017 #43
If Bernie can move on from unfairly bashing democratic party YCHDT Sep 2017 #41
And apart from the Primary zentrum Sep 2017 #29
Bernie wins his elections murielm99 Sep 2017 #32
amendment king clu Sep 2017 #34
lol. n/t seaglass Sep 2017 #40
yes i re-read the link after posting clu Sep 2017 #45
We agree on one thing. zentrum Sep 2017 #35
There are the outs and there are the establishment types. Jim Lane Sep 2017 #36
+1 clu Sep 2017 #46
Ok. Eko Sep 2017 #48
I appreciate your addressing what I actually wrote. Here are my responses. Jim Lane Sep 2017 #49
HaHa Eko Sep 2017 #50
Pardon me, but would you explain your laughing? I guess I'm too dense. Jim Lane Sep 2017 #51
K&R Gothmog Sep 2017 #38
If he'd won the primary and lost to Trump he'd be saying the same thing. ucrdem Sep 2017 #39
Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2017 #42
Sanders doesn't own a wing of the Democratic Party. He's not a Democrat, nor does he pretend to be. Lil Missy Sep 2017 #47
Great description. Thank you. NurseJackie Sep 2017 #59
Dems lost to trump because the public is dumb. The public wanted "change" and entertainment The_Casual_Observer Sep 2017 #52
This bullshit is getting tiresome and on top of that, no one is listening to you. phleshdef Sep 2017 #53
Post removed Post removed Sep 2017 #54
... QC Sep 2017 #60
You literally told people to, "Flame on." theaocp Sep 2017 #61
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