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In reply to the discussion: Where did the idea come from that support for a second New Deal means support for Jim Crow? [View all]Docreed2003
(18,714 posts)134. Executive Order 8802
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_8802
Most historians agree that it was one of the biggest steps in civil rights in a generation and helped to lay the groundwork for parts of the Civil Rights Act of 64.
It's natural to look back on history through our modern lens and judge actions taken or not taken at key moments in our history. My cynical side would look at the passage of EO 8802 and think, "Well of course FDR did that, abled bodied workers were needed for the war effort at that time." Realistically, that was a huge moment in history.
There's plenty to judge Roosevelt on in hindsight from refusing Jewish refugees to the Japanese internment camps.
For all of his flaws, FDR was a man of his time and what we widely view as our modern America was greatly shaped by him, Eleanor, Truman, JFK and LBJ. To hear people issue RW criticisms of the New Deal in this forum is discouraging, not because criticism of the New Deal isn't warranted, it surely is, but that criticism is frequently used to further a divide and to insult. Should FDR had made more moves to improve minority and women's rights? Absolutely! But I doubt those measures would have ever been passed during that time.
It took the aftermath of WWII to fully integrated the military. That move led directly to further advancements in Civil Rights. The assassination of JFK carried a huge weight on LBJ to push for the 64 Civil Rights Act in his memory. Each step on the journey to social justice in this country has been slow and with great cost, perhaps it's the nature of real change.
In that perspective, I think one can look back and acknowledge the past and accept the good and reasonable call out the bad. In many ways, we find ourselves in similar straights today. "The ACA wasn't good enough, give us single payer", "The banks and corporations are too powerful, let's break them up and force them to pay their fair share." And on and on. We must be careful to not push any agenda that would put at risk the social advancements or economic structures that we have....because, especially social justice advancements took so long with such incredible sacrifice, most people aren't willing to push for radical ideas that might put those advancements at risk! Some things do happen relatively quickly, take for example the right for gay couples to marry, but that is a unique example in this country's history. At this present moment, we are burdened with economic injustice and attacks on social justice. The two are the wings of the bird of freedom, there cannot be one without the other. But the work that will be required to undo the harm that conservatives have inflicted upon both fronts will take years, perhaps decades to unravel. We can and must fight for social and economic justice, dividing the two only serves to divide ourselves. How we achieve that balance is up for debate, the importance of both is not and should not!
Most historians agree that it was one of the biggest steps in civil rights in a generation and helped to lay the groundwork for parts of the Civil Rights Act of 64.
It's natural to look back on history through our modern lens and judge actions taken or not taken at key moments in our history. My cynical side would look at the passage of EO 8802 and think, "Well of course FDR did that, abled bodied workers were needed for the war effort at that time." Realistically, that was a huge moment in history.
There's plenty to judge Roosevelt on in hindsight from refusing Jewish refugees to the Japanese internment camps.
For all of his flaws, FDR was a man of his time and what we widely view as our modern America was greatly shaped by him, Eleanor, Truman, JFK and LBJ. To hear people issue RW criticisms of the New Deal in this forum is discouraging, not because criticism of the New Deal isn't warranted, it surely is, but that criticism is frequently used to further a divide and to insult. Should FDR had made more moves to improve minority and women's rights? Absolutely! But I doubt those measures would have ever been passed during that time.
It took the aftermath of WWII to fully integrated the military. That move led directly to further advancements in Civil Rights. The assassination of JFK carried a huge weight on LBJ to push for the 64 Civil Rights Act in his memory. Each step on the journey to social justice in this country has been slow and with great cost, perhaps it's the nature of real change.
In that perspective, I think one can look back and acknowledge the past and accept the good and reasonable call out the bad. In many ways, we find ourselves in similar straights today. "The ACA wasn't good enough, give us single payer", "The banks and corporations are too powerful, let's break them up and force them to pay their fair share." And on and on. We must be careful to not push any agenda that would put at risk the social advancements or economic structures that we have....because, especially social justice advancements took so long with such incredible sacrifice, most people aren't willing to push for radical ideas that might put those advancements at risk! Some things do happen relatively quickly, take for example the right for gay couples to marry, but that is a unique example in this country's history. At this present moment, we are burdened with economic injustice and attacks on social justice. The two are the wings of the bird of freedom, there cannot be one without the other. But the work that will be required to undo the harm that conservatives have inflicted upon both fronts will take years, perhaps decades to unravel. We can and must fight for social and economic justice, dividing the two only serves to divide ourselves. How we achieve that balance is up for debate, the importance of both is not and should not!
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Where did the idea come from that support for a second New Deal means support for Jim Crow? [View all]
Ken Burch
Sep 2017
OP
No, it's the truth... The Democratic Party changed under LBJ when he passed civil & voting rights
MrScorpio
Sep 2017
#2
Pointing out the shortcomings in an historical era doesn't "Poisoning" everything in that era.
ehrnst
Sep 2017
#13
You'll of course, support your allegation with evidence and provide a link
LanternWaste
Sep 2017
#67
That's horrible about the kid. And we need to protect choice But we have federal civil right laws.
Ken Burch
Sep 2017
#108
And we need them. AFAIK, nobody on our side of the spectrum is minimizing the need for them.
Ken Burch
Sep 2017
#119
you made the claim that we don't have to worry about government programs discriminating
dsc
Sep 2017
#122
I take your point with regards to antidiscrmination measures for the LGBTQ community.
Ken Burch
Sep 2017
#123
We can't totally establish social justice first, in complete isolation from economic justice.
Ken Burch
Sep 2017
#59
The reason that happened in the Thirties was that the Democratic congressional leadership
Ken Burch
Sep 2017
#64
And that brings us back to the fact that there can be NO Economic Justice without Social Justice
Lee Adama
Sep 2017
#74
Social justice issue drive economic justice for those who aren't white straight men
ehrnst
Sep 2017
#92
There's no difference between doing both at at the same time, which we would do
Ken Burch
Sep 2017
#109
That's not what I get from Sanders. He is all about economic justice & nothing about social justice
Lee Adama
Sep 2017
#125
Tell that to those who are yelling at anyone who won't sponsor "Medicare for all." (nt)
ehrnst
Sep 2017
#143
Again... have you seen the news? Dems are waffling on whether women's health care
ehrnst
Sep 2017
#80
A tiny handful are waffling. But choice, at this point, isn't covered by federal civil rights laws
Ken Burch
Sep 2017
#97
A very public and vocal group is advocating for waffling. One of whom is the most vocal of all.
ehrnst
Sep 2017
#144
Reps were racist because people electing them were racist - not vice versa. (nt)
ehrnst
Sep 2017
#93
There was a lot of racism-but if it hadn't been for the Southern committee chairs
Ken Burch
Sep 2017
#100
I mean economic justice for ALL-I've never meant it exclusively for white men.
Ken Burch
Sep 2017
#101
So now you understand that people can indeed say that the New Deal was made smoother by
ehrnst
Sep 2017
#142
It's not an actual idea, it's a huge misunderstanding of the point that is made that
ehrnst
Sep 2017
#11
Not focusing on race but blacks and women make up large part of the democratic party.
melanctha
Sep 2017
#83
I always thought Libertarians and AnCaps were the group of FDR Revisionists.
HughBeaumont
Sep 2017
#19
We should discuss the health care we can get now...the ACA with a public option down the road. The
Demsrule86
Sep 2017
#23
When there is no chance of getting it for the foreseeable future and every chance that support for
Demsrule86
Sep 2017
#27
There is no chance for progress as the GOP won't even bring it to the floor...
Demsrule86
Sep 2017
#96
I read these threads, and no one said that. However, the idea that the 'new deal' was the be all
Demsrule86
Sep 2017
#22
Were did the idea that isolationism-nativism-populism-protectionism-and anti-capitalism...
Expecting Rain
Sep 2017
#33
Except Sanders, despite his title, isn't a socialist in the sense FDR understood the term
white_wolf
Sep 2017
#36
Nor was Huey "Share the Wealth/Every Man A King" Long, who was FDR's mortal enemy.
Expecting Rain
Sep 2017
#48
And we all agree that it was wrong that people of color were left out of the original New Deal
Ken Burch
Sep 2017
#51
guess we need to tear down the fdr statues along with the other confederate generals
dembotoz
Sep 2017
#77
Ken, you seem like a decent person. I know you and I disagree on some issues.
Blue_true
Sep 2017
#149
For too many, it is impossible to separate the New Deal label from 1930's racism and sexism
Ken Burch
Sep 2017
#155
And there's no possibility that New Deal-type measures passed today would exclude people of color
Ken Burch
Sep 2017
#61
The whites who turned right didn't do that because social programs were open to all.
Ken Burch
Sep 2017
#115
FDR took TR's Square Deal, added more, removed much more and re-branded it as the Fair Deal
LanternWaste
Sep 2017
#65
Exactly WHO is saying that? It appears that this particular "objection" exists only in your mind.
NurseJackie
Sep 2017
#84
We can have both Social & Economic justice at the same time. IF WE fight for both!
JoeOtterbein
Sep 2017
#102
It is a cynical tactic to try to avoid supporting progessive economic issues.
Willie Pep
Sep 2017
#116