General Discussion

JCanete

(5,272 posts)

62. The legislature is not the people, and they don't operate in a bubble that isn't affected by

Mon Sep 25, 2017, 03:29 PM

Sep 2017

national politics or even the actions of other states. And public opinion changes. We push forward to change public opinion. We keep pushing the ideas we believe in. We didn't stop talking about civil rights or marriage equality because the majority didn't yet want it.

That Sanders would have any power to get TrumpCare passed without actually voting for it himself, even if he were to stick both feet in his mouth, is an absurd notion. It does not add up. It has nothing to do with whether or not the GOP will push this through. The GOP has a shitty plan. They can't defend their own plan. It is a question of retaining Obamacare or passing the thing that strips away coverage. They have no carrot, only a stick. Any successful effort to paint Single-payer or Medicare-for-All as extreme only helps to make Obamacare the plan of compromise. Your anxiety is misplaced at the feet of Sanders. It makes no sense.

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If Bernie attacks the democrats in any way this evening [View all] boston bean Sep 2017 OP

I refuse to watch it. He doesn't speak for me. Trust Buster Sep 2017 #1

I am vacation so I will probably miss it too. But I am sure I will hear about it. boston bean Sep 2017 #2

Yep, I will here the recap as well. Trust Buster Sep 2017 #4

That you will hear about it is a fairly safe bet. Jim Lane Sep 2017 #17

So what? Cary Sep 2017 #155

I think Bernie will be OK. He's a career politician so he can take ehrnst Sep 2017 #161

That's also a fairly safe bet. Jim Lane Sep 2017 #171

The Voice is back tonight so I will miss it too. leftofcool Sep 2017 #36

I can't watch it...too nervous. Demsrule86 Sep 2017 #84

Why are there 2 redumbliCONs and only one Democrat? democratisphere Sep 2017 #3

DId Klobuchar back out? RandomAccess Sep 2017 #12

I hope she doesn't get the question about why Vermont doesn't have single payer... R B Garr Sep 2017 #13

Do as "I" say, not as "WE" do. democratisphere Sep 2017 #20

hehe. You love love love that talking point. It doesn't make any sense at all, since Sanders is a JCanete Sep 2017 #22

It most certainly is leftynyc Sep 2017 #23

They didn't do it at all. That isn't a failure of Medicare-for-All, it is a failure of the the JCanete Sep 2017 #24

No - it didn't pass leftynyc Sep 2017 #57

The legislature is not the people, and they don't operate in a bubble that isn't affected by JCanete Sep 2017 #62

Blame the voters leftynyc Sep 2017 #66

I disagree that pushing for actually progressive values hurts us in any way, but this site has a JCanete Sep 2017 #69

This is not about pushing progressive value...this is about giving the GOP cover to repeal the ACA. Demsrule86 Sep 2017 #85

we've had that discussion. I don't get your point of view on this, even if I respect it. It does not JCanete Sep 2017 #86

It seems that the debate went well...I could not stand to watch...very nervous about repeal. Demsrule86 Sep 2017 #125

It did seem to go well, thanks. I don't know what Graham and Cassidy were thinking trying to JCanete Sep 2017 #134

Excellent...again hats off to Sen. Sanders. Demsrule86 Sep 2017 #177

Defending the indefensible for sure...those two looked really stupid caught a couple of clip on TV Demsrule86 Sep 2017 #196

I'm using my 10,000th post to give a big," Yes, I agree with you". The Wielding Truth Sep 2017 #104

Congratulations and thanks! JCanete Sep 2017 #135

Yes, public opinion changes... brooklynite Sep 2017 #68

meaning what? The republicans were successfully bludgeoning us on the ACA at the time JCanete Sep 2017 #70

LOL, so you speak with understanding and precision excusing Vermont politicians to R B Garr Sep 2017 #72

Sanders didn't shelve it in either state. Other politicians who were in a position to do so did. JCanete Sep 2017 #78

Yet your strawmen are all over the place. There are plenty of logical reasons R B Garr Sep 2017 #80

heheh what? Just at least admit that Sanders is not a State Senator. Also, note that I didn't JCanete Sep 2017 #87

There aren't that many politicians in Vermont. Surely Bernie knows them. R B Garr Sep 2017 #91

Holy fuck you really don't understand how politics works. You really think people just need JCanete Sep 2017 #94

You completely contradict yourself. First you say people just need convincing R B Garr Sep 2017 #96

convincing the leadership to pass something is different than convincing the people that they want JCanete Sep 2017 #98

Then that means that Bernie as a leader couldn't get single payer implemented R B Garr Sep 2017 #100

Yes there was a push for single payer brooklynite Sep 2017 #76

The rich aren't willing to pay for it? No shit? No shit? wow. We could fund this you know. JCanete Sep 2017 #77

Your superficial responses are just rejected talking points. You can't decide R B Garr Sep 2017 #79

really? You aren't good at connecting dots. The rich have undue influence on our political landscape JCanete Sep 2017 #88

The dots that aren't connecting is you thinking that you can blame others R B Garr Sep 2017 #90

Bullshit it isn't why. The rich control the messaging. They can make a fucking idiotic wall popular JCanete Sep 2017 #92

Are you saying that rich people in Vermont didn't want single payer?? R B Garr Sep 2017 #93

You think national and international corporations have no power in Vermont? You think JCanete Sep 2017 #95

LOL, back to hiding behind corporations and now international corporations. R B Garr Sep 2017 #97

and you can go on pretending that money isn't a factor in American JCanete Sep 2017 #99

You made huge generalizations about the rich and their power. So why doesn't R B Garr Sep 2017 #102

Straw man. Pointing out that something wasn't caused by the mechanations of the rich ehrnst Sep 2017 #152

I'm willing to have a focused conversation about deficits of legislation when you are willing to JCanete Sep 2017 #166

It was the taxes that were going to be levied to pay for Green Mountain Care that killed it. ehrnst Sep 2017 #149

Actually, the wall is favored by 35% of Americans. And no, HRC didn't stop advocating ehrnst Sep 2017 #164

This was a decision by actual voters. brooklynite Sep 2017 #108

Some interest public opinion in VT on the subject. CentralMass Sep 2017 #133

No, the citizens weren't willing to pay that kind of taxes for it. ehrnst Sep 2017 #150

So the public voted on the bill directly? Why don't you explain to me how that went? JCanete Sep 2017 #153

Well, since you don't seem to understand much about what happened ehrnst Sep 2017 #158

what do I not understand about that? That all adds up to me. The representatives were afraid JCanete Sep 2017 #162

How much of your passion is for single payer? Cary Sep 2017 #157

I'm glad we're on the same page with single-payer. What I have a passion for beyond the legislation JCanete Sep 2017 #168

I'm so sick of that Cary Sep 2017 #172

No good has come from what? JCanete Sep 2017 #173

From ideological purity. Cary Sep 2017 #174

And what is ideological purity? Who represents that? Advocating for what you believe in? JCanete Sep 2017 #175

Good grief JCanete Cary Sep 2017 #176

+1, it's definitely about a single personality. R B Garr Sep 2017 #180

Unless they want Republicans to win Cary Sep 2017 #183

There it is! Exactly. R B Garr Sep 2017 #189

Kind of ironic for people against "identity politics" to be so taken with a cult of identity with a Ninsianna Sep 2017 #185

*1, exactly, and the alternate reality is also a RW R B Garr Sep 2017 #187

Fits with the behavior, the tactics and the talking points. Ninsianna Sep 2017 #188

With all the obvious contradictions, it looks deliberate. R B Garr Sep 2017 #190

Well, the familiar talking points used verbatim are pretty consistent too. Ninsianna Sep 2017 #191

Exactly, it is the single most valid question, recognized by people/journalists everywhere. R B Garr Sep 2017 #28

That's a red herring. Single payer only works if the entire country is enrolled. Zen Democrat Sep 2017 #74

That is not a fact. It failed on the ballot in Colorado. R B Garr Sep 2017 #75

Actually no, it's not a fact. Canada is a good example. ehrnst Sep 2017 #151

Well, it or something like it pangaia Sep 2017 #128

It's never been tried leftynyc Sep 2017 #136

This is truly absurd. You seem to love this diversion, but it's just an excuse. R B Garr Sep 2017 #26

The politicians in Washington know each other too. What does that even mean? JCanete Sep 2017 #30

This is not a difficult concept. And your excuses are nonsense. People everywhere can R B Garr Sep 2017 #34

people who want a reason to shut down discussion of single payer or medicare-for-all can grasp it. JCanete Sep 2017 #35

LOL, that didn't take long to hide behind "corporations" as some kind of excuse, too. R B Garr Sep 2017 #37

You trying to give your argument any kind of salience by referencing a corporate newspaper JCanete Sep 2017 #41

This isn't fooling anyone. It's just excuses. You are just hiding behind superficial R B Garr Sep 2017 #42

Lets fucking find out. Do you want to stand in the way of it and just poo poo any efforts to JCanete Sep 2017 #44

You are not making any sense. R B Garr Sep 2017 #47

So commenting on it without cheerleading is standing in the way of it? Or "barring the way" ehrnst Sep 2017 #147

Right. Any newspaper that doesn't support your view is suddenly "corporate" ehrnst Sep 2017 #145

No, it is simply the reality of the paper and our 4th estate in general. JCanete Sep 2017 #169

+1, nailed it. Hiding behind corporations is the R B Garr Sep 2017 #181

what are you talking about? Since I'm literally the person that was being responded to, JCanete Sep 2017 #198

You aren't making any sense. R B Garr Sep 2017 #202

just snorting about something doesn't make it not true. Its hardly a conspiracy theory to say money JCanete Sep 2017 #204

Lame R B Garr Sep 2017 #205

good talk... JCanete Sep 2017 #207

You can tell it's lame because reality is that Russian R B Garr Sep 2017 #208

that is fucking daft. Did you pay attention to election coverage? Trump had no business JCanete Sep 2017 #209

Reality is a thing. Adherence to your generic word clouds R B Garr Sep 2017 #210

I never questioned whether Russia has attempted to influence the election. Do you think the MSM JCanete Sep 2017 #211

Generic word clouds are not reality. Insinuating Democrats are corrupt R B Garr Sep 2017 #212

oh the msm just hates women. It didn't hate Kerry or Obama or Gore...It didn't JCanete Sep 2017 #213

lol, this is silly. You obviously can't accept anything outside R B Garr Sep 2017 #214

right...cuz I've ever seen you deviate even slightly from yours. I'll give you this, you never take JCanete Sep 2017 #215

I knew this was all about making this personal. R B Garr Sep 2017 #216

that's pretty wild. Why don't you read through our history of exchanges and see if you can really JCanete Sep 2017 #217

How silly. Your word clouds are all generic references R B Garr Sep 2017 #220

so you've got nothing to prove your specious claim. nt JCanete Sep 2017 #221

Reality is not a specious claim. Forcing empty campaign R B Garr Sep 2017 #222

Hey, leave The Boston Globe alone. sheshe2 Sep 2017 #167

Newspapers are supposed to report the news, and be unbiased. Ninsianna Sep 2017 #184

there is no such thing as no bias. When they try they are faking it. I'd rather they be honest about JCanete Sep 2017 #197

There is such a thing as journalism, and integrity, but if you prefer propagnada Ninsianna Sep 2017 #199

There is such thing as credibility. Papers and News stations(with some obvious exceptions) are JCanete Sep 2017 #206

Indeed there is, we've seen that many of the sites people here favor because it Ninsianna Sep 2017 #218

No. That's ridiculous. How can you control how your bias affects your coverage if you aren't aware JCanete Sep 2017 #219

No, what's ridiculous is that confirmation bias as already been admitted to, Ninsianna Sep 2017 #223

You are making assumptions you have no evidence for. You have single-handedly decided that JCanete Sep 2017 #224

I thought you said that people in government only do what rich people tell them to. ehrnst Sep 2017 #163

do you really think there's a contradiction here? The only thing that speaks as loud, or at least JCanete Sep 2017 #165

Because A Small State Doesn't Have The Macro Economy To Fund It? ProfessorGAC Sep 2017 #51

More excuses, really, at least by the standards already set by the Revolution. nt R B Garr Sep 2017 #52

How Is That An Excuse? ProfessorGAC Sep 2017 #55

Are costs and logic now part of the Revolution's considerations? R B Garr Sep 2017 #60

How The Heck Am I Supposed To Know? ProfessorGAC Sep 2017 #63

What is your source that a state is too small to implement single payer? ehrnst Sep 2017 #159

My Years Of Econometric Analysis ProfessorGAC Sep 2017 #179

Thank you! ChubbyStar Sep 2017 #56

Actually, it's easier in a small state. That's why Vermont tried it. ehrnst Sep 2017 #154

"National" health insurance works when an entire country is covered, not individual states. Zen Democrat Sep 2017 #73

So why did Vermont try? Why did Colorado and California discuss it? ehrnst Sep 2017 #156

When he avoids questions about what was learned from Single Payer in his home state ehrnst Sep 2017 #148

Who is the Democrat? n/t radical noodle Oct 2017 #229

Bernie understands that we need the ACA at this time. kentuck Sep 2017 #5

You are preaching to the wrong person. boston bean Sep 2017 #7

Principles before personalities is a popular phrase elsewhere. Eliot Rosewater Sep 2017 #31

Actually, we need a lot longer than four years to avoid disruption to health care delivery ehrnst Sep 2017 #160

Well, to some his very existence as a non-Democrat in the Senate is an attack on the party. aikoaiko Sep 2017 #6

ffs shanny Sep 2017 #8

You cannot get purity from anything the op stated. Weekend Warrior Sep 2017 #10

That is for god damn sure. Eliot Rosewater Sep 2017 #33

.... shanny Sep 2017 #67

Prepare to scream. Weekend Warrior Sep 2017 #9

Millionaires billionaires corporations R B Garr Sep 2017 #14

"Noun-verb-millionares and billionares" taught_me_patience Sep 2017 #15

Funny how that happened. (nt) ehrnst Sep 2017 #116

I'll wait for DU reports, IOW, won't watch. MoonRiver Sep 2017 #11

The guy assisting Klobuchar in the debate? nt LexVegas Sep 2017 #16

There aren't many that could do this right but of course CNN would go with Sanders. ucrdem Sep 2017 #18

If minority leader Schumer wanted to be in the debate, he would be there karynnj Sep 2017 #48

K&R Gothmog Sep 2017 #19

I would love to know why those who hate Bernie lovemydogs Sep 2017 #21

I understand it, but I don't subscribe to it. Tobin S. Sep 2017 #29

Thank you. I do see what you are saying lovemydogs Sep 2017 #39

He had no right treestar Sep 2017 #45

Why not? Cuthbert Allgood Sep 2017 #58

He had no "right" to run as a Democrat treestar Sep 2017 #111

You have a very peculiar idea of democracy. Iran comes to mind... redgreenandblue Sep 2017 #112

the Democratic party uses a primary treestar Sep 2017 #225

Nope, you are intentionally misstating the facts. Anyone can run. You don't need a party. stevenleser Nov 2017 #230

And if people choose to run outside of a party we never hear the end of it. redgreenandblue Nov 2017 #231

That is demonstrably untrue. We heard about Ralph Nader and we heard about Jill Stein stevenleser Nov 2017 #232

Putting right in quotation marks doesn't answer the question of why not. Cuthbert Allgood Sep 2017 #140

Post removed Post removed Sep 2017 #146

I think she lost due to voter turnout treestar Sep 2017 #226

Better not watch then. n/t Lil Missy Sep 2017 #25

Dont you dare scream it here, though. Eliot Rosewater Sep 2017 #27

im not watching it either and just holding my breath he doesnt... samnsara Sep 2017 #32

Do you think he's going to say anything those Repubs haven't heard? Cuthbert Allgood Sep 2017 #59

I'm also in no mood to hear about WWC voters for the millionth time Blue_Tires Sep 2017 #38

Preach. They already have an exaggerated sense of self importance and need to get over themselves. bettyellen Sep 2017 #61

Truth! Tarheel_Dem Sep 2017 #193

Sometimes tough love is needed. It's a damn shame he left the party, but after the way joet67 Sep 2017 #40

Sorry... smears lies and insults (no matter who delivers them) are not "tough love"... NurseJackie Sep 2017 #49

Exactly! Same here lovemydogs Sep 2017 #71

If "tough love" results in losing the debate and helping millions lose their health insurance pnwmom Sep 2017 #81

no it won't, but thanks for your views. joet67 Sep 2017 #101

I will be keeping my expectations very low... so as not to be disappointed. Also... NurseJackie Sep 2017 #43

If he does I hope Amy Klobuchar walks out NastyRiffraff Sep 2017 #46

I absolutely disagree -- I hope Amy Klobuchar stays and makes the issue the real choice before us karynnj Sep 2017 #50

I wouldn't blame her. It's not the first time she's had credit ehrnst Sep 2017 #143

I think he plans to walk on water-will that be OK? jalan48 Sep 2017 #53

the bottom of his shoes will have to be checked for dampness dembotoz Sep 2017 #64

One can protect the ACA while also working to replace it with a better plan. eom guillaumeb Sep 2017 #54

Not in a debate. He can't disparage the ACA and defend it from attackers at the same time. n/t pnwmom Sep 2017 #82

True, but any argument about what might be said is pointless. eom guillaumeb Sep 2017 #89

It's a double edged sword, bb. saidsimplesimon Sep 2017 #65

I have my fainting couch prepared, I don't know how i will manage to go on if he does. nt m-lekktor Sep 2017 #83

Wow, a person of leisure* with no concerns about his party being maligned. R B Garr Sep 2017 #103

Bernie knows the deal... Mike Nelson Sep 2017 #105

Stomp your feet and pull out your hair, elleng Sep 2017 #106

I won't watch mcar Sep 2017 #107

This wins the internets for shedding bitter tears while shark jumping on a political message board. Voltaire2 Sep 2017 #109

How is your voice? aikoaiko Sep 2017 #110

Bernie has always been all about protecting the ACA. Autumn Sep 2017 #113

Ugh, how totally unnecessary and childish. This is a R B Garr Sep 2017 #114

Hey! how are you doing? I know it's hard to put up with politicians and people you disagree with Autumn Sep 2017 #115

None of what you said had to do with my post except more R B Garr Sep 2017 #117

I know that you don't like spending a lot of time on Senators from small Northeastern states. Autumn Sep 2017 #118

why don't you just admit the real reason you kicked R B Garr Sep 2017 #119

Post removed Post removed Sep 2017 #120

Good grief, Autumn! That wasn't very nice. NurseJackie Sep 2017 #137

Oh... I missed it! (nt) ehrnst Sep 2017 #142

This message was self-deleted by its author KTM Sep 2017 #195

Post #114: Agreed! ... Post #117: Agreed! ... Post #119: Agreed! NurseJackie Sep 2017 #121

Thanks NJ! I feel the same about your posts. R B Garr Sep 2017 #123

Hostile posting bothers you? ehrnst Sep 2017 #144

From the posts I've seen, um ... lack of self awareness? Ninsianna Sep 2017 #186

Autumn isn't the one being childish. DLevine Sep 2017 #122

Feel free to look how this thread was kicked. R B Garr Sep 2017 #124

Agreed - the Bernie hate on DU is such a turnoff womanofthehills Sep 2017 #139

Project much? KPN Sep 2017 #127

You too. The posts are numbered and you can see R B Garr Sep 2017 #131

The major 'kick' seems to have been the pause between #110 and #111 muriel_volestrangler Sep 2017 #138

i didnt watch it last night.. how did it go? samnsara Sep 2017 #126

So enquiring minds want to know, did you have to scream last night? KPN Sep 2017 #129

No I did not scream with what I watched. But I only watched 1 hour. boston bean Sep 2017 #130

Well, I'll take that as a good thing then. KPN Sep 2017 #132

Glad to hear it. I think Amy and Bernie did a fine job of defending access to health care. aikoaiko Sep 2017 #141

I think Bernie speaks for us all on this topic - I have confidence in him. Joe941 Sep 2017 #170

kick. Voltaire2 Sep 2017 #178

Must have gone well? Seemed to have neutered the Republicans for a little while. Sunlei Sep 2017 #182

And the Reagan Democrats Hassin Bin Sober Sep 2017 #192

The '80s called, said you're using "Reagan Democrats" wrong. betsuni Sep 2017 #200

Yes, this misuse is hilarious when you consider the Reagan Democrats by definition R B Garr Sep 2017 #203

This OP and thread is 100% win ornotna Sep 2017 #194

If I see another Bernie flame war I'm going to scream JonLP24 Sep 2017 #201

Screamin'Jay Hawkins jalan48 Sep 2017 #227

He really needs to get behind the ACA instead of ignoring it. ucrdem Sep 2017 #228