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JHan

(10,173 posts)
95. I mentioned the 2015 fed reserve study, it's worth reading...adding to that tho..
Tue Oct 3, 2017, 04:41 PM
Oct 2017

In many of the responses to you in this thread there is objection to either/or arguments. Compromise is the antithesis of the dualistic approach of Either/Or.

I'm not a policy expert, just a layman trying to make sense of the trends:

These links are a good overview of the study in question.

This link also provides supplementary data from other research looking into tuition costs https://www.forbes.com/sites/akelly/2015/10/08/does-federal-student-aid-cause-tuition-increases-it-certainly-enables-them/

Vox also looked at the study , and there's some refutation of the claims being made . I particularly like the analogy of car loans and car prices. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2015/8/12/9130157/financial-aid-tuition-bennett-hypothesis

This covers the pesky business of fees, another layer of expense :https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/01/how-university-costs-keep-rising-despite-tuition-freezes/512036/

But my skepticism has more to do with the idea that degrees are a magical solution to income disparity.

From Income Inequality and Education Richard Breen,Inkwan Chung ( University of Oxford & Yale University ) https://www.sociologicalscience.com/download/volume-2/august/SocSci_v2_454to477.pdf

From the abstract :

" Many commentators have seen the growing gap in earnings and income between those with a college education and those without as a major cause of increasing inequality in the United States and elsewhere. In this article we investigate the extent to which increasing the educational attainment of the US population might ameliorate inequality. We use data from NLSY79 and carry out a three-level decomposition of total inequality into within-person, between-person and between- education parts. We find that the between-education contribution to inequality is small, even when we consider only adjusted inequality that omits the within-person component. We carry out a number of simulations to gauge the likely impact on inequality of changes in the distribution of education and of a narrowing of the differences in average incomes between those with different levels of education. We find that any feasible educational policy is likely to have only a minor impact on income inequality."


Take note of figure 3 on pg 13 which this section references:

Figure 3 illustrates why education accounts for relatively little inequality. These kernel density plots show the distributions of respondents’ mean income (aver- aged over the entire period of roughly 20 years) according to education. While it is immediately evident that the densities for higher educational categories lie further to the right, it is equally apparent that there is substantial overlap between categories. In the older cohort, for example, almost 23 percent of respondents in the college category have an average income less than the median for respondents in the high school category. In the younger cohort the figure is 13 percent, reflecting the impression in Figure 3 that the overlap in income is less among those born 1962–4.

It might be objected that education explains only a small share of inequality because the educational groupings we are using are not sufficiently discriminating: the category “college” for example, puts together graduates from different colleges and from different majors and also includes people with post-graduate degrees. Perhaps if we had a finer categorization of education we could explain more; some of the within-education inequality would then become between-education inequality. We repeated our analyses with six categories of education: “less than high school” “GED” “high school diploma” “some college” “completed college” and “advanced degree (MA, PhD or professional qualification)” This had little impact on the share of inequality explained by education.

For example, if we consider only the results for the entire period, the original four categories of education accounted for 0.044/(0.044 + 0.122) = 26.5 percent of total adjusted (for within-person volatility) inequality in the older cohort and 27.4 percent in the younger cohort. Using the six categories these percentages change to 27 percent and 27.8 percent. The additional contributions from the use of the finer categorization to between-group inequality in each of the sub-periods are similarly very small."


Which is why I questioned the sense of a high school graduate taking themselves out of the market for 4 years, to pursue an unproductive degree according to market demands, for the purpose of netting an above-median wage only to then be disappointed.

And my focus on k-12 is the direct link it has on generational wealth: poor education in formative years puts you out of the loop permanently. Literacy and numeracy rates are alarming enough in a country that is the richest and most powerful in the world.
Hillary is soooo right on target with this excerpt! nt. Amimnoch Oct 2017 #1
Yep, it's a good explanation of game theory in action JHan Oct 2017 #8
Great excerpt, thanks. Hillary's got it! George II Oct 2017 #2
I believe Hillary was referring to Susan Sarandon... NurseJackie Oct 2017 #115
Boy How Often Have We Heard That Lately Me. Oct 2017 #3
there are so many good bits in the book. JHan Oct 2017 #6
It Will Never Be Enough For Some Me. Oct 2017 #9
Ain't that the truth?! (Great lyrics you quoted, BTW!) NurseJackie Oct 2017 #112
Wow! sheshe2 Oct 2017 #4
Perfectionism/ dualistic thinking are never positive. ehrnst Oct 2017 #5
++++++++ JHan Oct 2017 #7
K&R betsuni Oct 2017 #10
K & R SunSeeker Oct 2017 #11
One disagreement BainsBane Oct 2017 #12
Some will say you're being harsh but I agree with your assessment. JHan Oct 2017 #15
This. (nt) ehrnst Oct 2017 #20
+1 betsuni Oct 2017 #31
A big thumbs up! justhanginon Oct 2017 #30
Obviously, it is wrong to say that there's NO difference between the two parties Ken Burch Oct 2017 #13
Good Grief Could You Twist Her Words Any More Than You Have JUst Done Me. Oct 2017 #16
Not about her-about the way that phrase"don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good"- Ken Burch Oct 2017 #17
Again with the strawmen and hyperbole ehrnst Oct 2017 #19
NO-and that itself is a strawmen. Ken Burch Oct 2017 #22
No, it's not a strawman. It's a response to a strawman.... ehrnst Oct 2017 #24
It's not as though the only possiblities are being "dualistic" Ken Burch Oct 2017 #26
I think your post just indicated ehrnst Oct 2017 #27
No, not "any compromise"...I'll clarify Ken Burch Oct 2017 #35
Come on Ken... JHan Oct 2017 #46
You're assuming I only care about what I want, that it's about ego with me. Ken Burch Oct 2017 #50
well.. JHan Oct 2017 #51
Petty? ehrnst Oct 2017 #62
Very Informative post ++++++ JHan Oct 2017 #74
I'm well aware that the LGBTQ community were excluded from that act. Ken Burch Oct 2017 #85
Because every decision, every piece of legislation has a numerical metric of over or under 50% ehrnst Oct 2017 #59
You didn't read the post you're replying to? betsuni Oct 2017 #60
We need our victories where we can get them, I suppose. ehrnst Oct 2017 #63
Big big sale, the biggest. At these prices we're practically giving them away! betsuni Oct 2017 #64
I did read it. I wanted to clarify that it's not a comparable situation Ken Burch Oct 2017 #82
Which is why I said that I knew that....in my post. ehrnst Oct 2017 #90
Like I Said Me. Oct 2017 #25
..... (nt) ehrnst Oct 2017 #66
This+1000 sheshe2 Oct 2017 #77
It's helpful to avoid false equivalencies and strawmen... ehrnst Oct 2017 #18
That phrase "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" goes back to the Nineties Ken Burch Oct 2017 #21
"Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" goes back even farther than the '90's ehrnst Oct 2017 #23
+1 betsuni Oct 2017 #28
I know it goes back to Voltaire, but it became a party maxim in the Nineties. Ken Burch Oct 2017 #29
Very well said. guillaumeb Oct 2017 #33
Nonsense, Ken. The same was said about LBJ and FDR in their own times. bettyellen Oct 2017 #53
I think you might be very disappointed to learn about the Civil Rights act of 1964 ehrnst Oct 2017 #65
Woah. +1000 sheshe2 Oct 2017 #34
The politics of the 90's was very different... JHan Oct 2017 #105
It was a different time. But for a lot of us, it's a big thing to want to be sure... Ken Burch Oct 2017 #106
You have to put those challenges in context..it seems you don't want to.. JHan Oct 2017 #107
"Those politics" I dont know whether to laugh or cry Eliot Rosewater Oct 2017 #108
Selective history but this is what is at the heart of the discontent.. JHan Oct 2017 #110
That would be hard. (nt) ehrnst Oct 2017 #109
I'm not talking about Bill here as much as I am about the future. Ken Burch Oct 2017 #111
Well, I do agree Dems could have done much better to sell H/C legislation to the public.. JHan Oct 2017 #113
"Tearing allies down gives ammo to their opponents..." Yes indeed. I'd also add... NurseJackie Oct 2017 #114
Ken. Blue_true Oct 2017 #45
Agreed. Your observation and description are right on target. NurseJackie Oct 2017 #116
For a refreshing change, why not blame Republicans for Republican-majority legislation betsuni Oct 2017 #52
There are few if any situations where Democratic presidents HAVE to sign Republican legislation. Ken Burch Oct 2017 #55
Hillary's strategy was to help senate candidate and gov races.... bettyellen Oct 2017 #56
I'm not attacking Hillary here, or at all. Ken Burch Oct 2017 #57
I never know what you're talking about. betsuni Oct 2017 #61
### NurseJackie Oct 2017 #117
Sorry Ken, your misinterpretation of HRC's point/words seems like a real stretch to me. emulatorloo Oct 2017 #70
I did say I agree fully with what she says in the last line quoted in the OP. Ken Burch Oct 2017 #93
Exactly. brer cat Oct 2017 #14
This fragment: guillaumeb Oct 2017 #32
Compromise is not betrayal JHan Oct 2017 #36
But we also have to frame the debate, as the GOP does so well. guillaumeb Oct 2017 #37
There's very little overlap to the right from Democrats. JHan Oct 2017 #38
One counterarguemnt for your citation is the ACA, or "Obamacare" as it is framed. guillaumeb Oct 2017 #40
Yes, and you're right.. JHan Oct 2017 #41
And the motivation, the root of THAT particular backlash was open racism. eom guillaumeb Oct 2017 #43
Definitely, the racism among tea partiers was so obvious. JHan Oct 2017 #44
yes exactly. It was a a respectable strategy. Now we know it doesn't work. We know there is no JCanete Oct 2017 #48
ok.. so... JHan Oct 2017 #49
One of the problems we face often is our politicians suggesting to us JCanete Oct 2017 #54
ACA is not 'the same' as Heritage. "The Heritage Plan *Was* The Conservative Alternate to the ACA" emulatorloo Oct 2017 #69
Thanks for that correction and the clarification! JHan Oct 2017 #75
The Heritage plan came first. It was embodied in Romneycare. guillaumeb Oct 2017 #84
Did the ACA kill Medicaid or turn Medicare into a voucher system? No emulatorloo Oct 2017 #97
The ACA was built on a Heritage Foundation model. guillaumeb Oct 2017 #98
"Built on" does not mean "teh same" emulatorloo Oct 2017 #101
I never said that they were identical in scope or intent. guillaumeb Oct 2017 #102
Who said the ACA didn't subsidize the insurance industry? emulatorloo Oct 2017 #104
Nobody on the left is actually against fixing K-12. It's just that by itself, that isn't enough. Ken Burch Oct 2017 #86
You believe a lack of college education renders secondary and primary education irrelevant? LanternWaste Oct 2017 #87
A good primary and secondary education is of value. Ken Burch Oct 2017 #91
I never argued that anyone on the left is against fixing k-12..... JHan Oct 2017 #88
I guess what bothers me(and I'm sorry if my response was harsh in tone) Ken Burch Oct 2017 #92
I mentioned the 2015 fed reserve study, it's worth reading...adding to that tho.. JHan Oct 2017 #95
Thank you. I will go to the links and read that. Ken Burch Oct 2017 #96
Q: Where does the book say that? A: It doesn't. emulatorloo Oct 2017 #68
From the original post: guillaumeb Oct 2017 #83
Your "spin" has little to do with the quote. emulatorloo Oct 2017 #99
aAnd your attempt at framing my response is noted. guillaumeb Oct 2017 #100
Of course the quote is accurate. Your "spin" is a logical leap you've made that is not emulatorloo Oct 2017 #103
I think HRC might have a unique perspective on the matter. lapucelle Oct 2017 #39
the flawed thing was nonsense.. JHan Oct 2017 #42
It should be acknowledged though, that there is a distinction between compromising JCanete Oct 2017 #47
American Prospect: "No, Obamacare Wasn't a "Republican" Proposal" emulatorloo Oct 2017 #67
Interesting, thanks. That is absolutely a distinction. I'd assumed it was worse than Obamacare, but JCanete Oct 2017 #71
Thank you for educating people here on the ACA vs Heritage Foundation Plan. ehrnst Oct 2017 #73
Yep, even I forgot . There's enough misinformation about the ACA out there already JHan Oct 2017 #76
Well, perhaps your definition of "compromise" is the real issue. ehrnst Oct 2017 #72
I certainly don't always know. Sometimes I'm wrong. I'm not interested in going to the grave being JCanete Oct 2017 #78
Again with the strawmen... ehrnst Oct 2017 #79
I wasn't saying you were actually saying anybody was advocating for a coup. I was saying JCanete Oct 2017 #80
I appreciate your candor. ehrnst Oct 2017 #81
Yep..data driven policy , based on evidence. JHan Oct 2017 #94
K&R Jamaal510 Oct 2017 #58
K&R Gothmog Oct 2017 #89
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