General Discussion

Crunchy Frog

(28,298 posts)

67. I consider myself a liberal, and I've always seen Trump as a symptom of deeper systemic problems

Sun Oct 15, 2017, 12:29 PM

Oct 2017

in this country.

I think it's reductive to put it all down to capitalism, although I think the way we do economics is certainly part of the problem. I believe that there are deeper social divisions and cultural problems that have been festering since the Civil War, or since the founding of the country, and Republicans have been exacerbating and exploiting them for decades.

I don't see any easy way out of our country's mess, and I'm not even sure that there is a way out.

I do think that the notion that deep social divisions, racism, authoritarianism and demagoguery only emerge as a function of capitalism is extremely simplistic and reductive. I don't think that overly simplistic thinking will get us out of this.

That's my two cents, for what it's worth.

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The difference between a leftist and a liberal view of Trump....... [View all] socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 OP

somehow made me think of this Randy Newman song... handmade34 Oct 2017 #1

Just struck me as a typical dishonest, gratuitous insult. Hortensis Oct 2017 #108

Thank you for posting that article. betsuni Oct 2017 #118

Great article nini Oct 2017 #121

You don't have to be a "leftist" to believe the problem goes beyond 45 himself nini Oct 2017 #2

Yup joeybee12 Oct 2017 #13

Seriously, this is getting so old nini Oct 2017 #72

You call it the "Purity card"......... socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #16

Well, you don't understand then nini Oct 2017 #71

I don't believe there is a fundamental difference. So to me your thread sets up a false division emulatorloo Oct 2017 #77

I'm a liberal and can see that removing 45 will not solve the problem. Merlot Oct 2017 #28

Yep. More purity bullshit leftofcool Oct 2017 #102

I agree with you. But sweetroxie Oct 2017 #3

Yes it does.......... socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #14

Post removed Post removed Oct 2017 #4

The OP doesn't mention Sanders or Clinton n/t leftstreet Oct 2017 #6

Far left vs. liberals ? We Hillary folks might not be smart be we can still connect the dots....LOL Trust Buster Oct 2017 #8

I never said that liberals weren't smart........... socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #12

Who is they? mcar Oct 2017 #20

I find your comment to be ignorant and arrogant at best. First, I consider myself a progressive Trust Buster Oct 2017 #21

Your post went live a minute after mine but we both used the same word. stevenleser Oct 2017 #25

Awesome. tymorial Oct 2017 #81

Which is exactly why we will not take House or Senate in 2018 leftofcool Oct 2017 #103

Good Democrats? mountain grammy Oct 2017 #120

Thank you. I didn't mention Sanders or Clinton........ socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #11

It didn't have to. kcr Oct 2017 #36

Oh Please. It didn't need to be stated. tymorial Oct 2017 #80

OP didnt mention either but the sentiment is the same stevenleser Oct 2017 #18

The far left and far right might have different ideologies but their emotional self absorption is Trust Buster Oct 2017 #24

That is exactly what this thread is, but I am a Hillary and DNC supporter so I cant Eliot Rosewater Oct 2017 #31

Provocation was the motive here. We centrist Democratic simpletons are just not equipped to think Trust Buster Oct 2017 #35

LOL what is so funny about that is not ONE of these folks are as liberal Eliot Rosewater Oct 2017 #41

So congrats! Do you believe that remedies can be found within ........ socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #60

So because I've studied these subjects and have formed an opinion on them....... socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #44

I did not promote your thoughts anywhere in my post to the level of elitist. Trust Buster Oct 2017 #62

Well "arrogant" and "smarter" certainly implies elitism.......... socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #64

You deflect by arguing what the meaning of the word is is. You made a broad observation that Trust Buster Oct 2017 #66

Not playing the victim at all........ socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #70

There's arrogance all over your op. JHan Oct 2017 #100

No. The elitism come when one thinks no one else has studied these subjects Squinch Oct 2017 #94

My personal politics have evolved over the last couple of years... JHan Oct 2017 #78

And so it continues. Trust Buster Oct 2017 #87

Well stated. leftofcool Oct 2017 #104

this was framed in terms of ideas not personalities. If "centrist" Dems want to stay in driver's... yurbud Oct 2017 #98

+1 betsuni Oct 2017 #124

So is that why leftists don't vote or vote third party? LuvLoogie Oct 2017 #5

Pretty much........ socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #9

So you openly promote not voting for the D party? Eliot Rosewater Oct 2017 #42

Vote for whoever the fuck you want to............ socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #46

Strawmen arguments about false divisivions are never "good topics" emulatorloo Oct 2017 #79

It illustrated something that some random guy made up in his head and you agreed with. Nothing more. Squinch Oct 2017 #95

Then why would they lower themselves BainsBane Oct 2017 #84

I can only speak for me, but in the US......... socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #91

Great. Another artificial division imposed on Democrats. I wish people would stop this shit. Squinch Oct 2017 #7

Not really "artificial" at all......... socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #10

No, it isn't. It's something that someone who identifies as "leftist," and who thinks he or she Squinch Oct 2017 #15

I never thought that I was smarter than anyone....... socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #23

You may not be aware of it but you clearly think so. Its in your writing stevenleser Oct 2017 #27

You're not alone in that observation. I see it as well. It's... NurseJackie Oct 2017 #37

So it's "arrogant" for me to hold a viewpoint?......... socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #38

Right because no one else on DU has a viewpoint stevenleser Oct 2017 #43

I never said you did. I said the person who wrote the original piece did. But Squinch Oct 2017 #90

As I said elsewhere, just because the phrase ........ socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #92

Now tell me again about how you aren't calling your allies stupid. Squinch Oct 2017 #93

Weren't you the one telling me that I didn't understand............ socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #109

It must be lonely to be you in such an intellectually lazy world. Squinch Oct 2017 #110

No its not joeybee12 Oct 2017 #17

Why in the world are so many people mischaracterizing this........ socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #30

Maybe "so many people" are not wrong, and you are the one who has the blind spot. Squinch Oct 2017 #96

What if "so many people" are wrong? This argument predates my lifetime. Zen Democrat Oct 2017 #106

The event you describe is not the reason that we became a country dominated by the MIC. Squinch Oct 2017 #107

I disagree completely mcar Oct 2017 #19

Nancy Pelosi said the the Democrats......... socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #26

You are speaking of economic systems ismnotwasm Oct 2017 #29

The economic system influences the social aspects ......... socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #33

Im saying you are underestimating social influences ismnotwasm Oct 2017 #50

Proto-fascist and even right wing authoritarian movements............. socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #63

And, as I am constantly telling Republicans, there are many shades of Capitalism stevenleser Oct 2017 #32

Wasn't it Bill Clinton who said...... socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #34

And to you that means embracing Reaganism. See thats the problem stevenleser Oct 2017 #40

Now you know why i don't post often. Scruffy1 Oct 2017 #48

There is another example that doesn't directly relate to US politics......... socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #52

Nuance is lost in these arguments. JHan Oct 2017 #114

You didn't answer my question mcar Oct 2017 #49

As to whether they've used those exact words or not........... socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #58

You're like Eastwood arguing with an empty chair, a strawman evil liberal you've created emulatorloo Oct 2017 #82

Ah, but if they use the names of actual liberals they'll get locked sweetloukillbot Oct 2017 #117

His thread wouldn't get locked. He just is unable to name a real liberal politician or pundit emulatorloo Oct 2017 #139

"an entire political class of Democratic politicians who supported the Reagan view of capitalism" BzaDem Oct 2017 #112

Unless your post was ghost written by someone from the far left that is.......LOL Trust Buster Oct 2017 #39

Trump is a republican creation ismnotwasm Oct 2017 #22

McCarthyism was powerful in the fifties. Blue_true Oct 2017 #45

LOL JI7 Oct 2017 #47

Completely wrong. DanTex Oct 2017 #51

word. KG Oct 2017 #53

Trump is merely a reflection of the sickness in the US and the world. Irish_Dem Oct 2017 #54

That depends on whether you think that.......... socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #56

Systems merely reflect human nature, the individuals. There is a dark side to human nature Irish_Dem Oct 2017 #61

Probably leftist, but only you can really decide that........... socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #65

I don't think anything is left off the hook. Humans make the systems. Irish_Dem Oct 2017 #69

Not a new conversation, G_j Oct 2017 #55

This song was in the back of my mind....... socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #68

that explains a lot about yr thread emulatorloo Oct 2017 #86

I have long felt that Michael Parenti's Democracy for the Few malaise Oct 2017 #57

Kickin' Faux pas Oct 2017 #59

I consider myself a liberal, and I've always seen Trump as a symptom of deeper systemic problems Crunchy Frog Oct 2017 #67

Well, that's a thoughtful reply. I don't agree.......... socialist_n_TN Oct 2017 #73

Wrong analysis. delisen Oct 2017 #74

Unfortunately, responses here are hung up on your choice of words Jim Lane Oct 2017 #75

Liberal here: GOP is the problem sharedvalues Oct 2017 #76

There are conservatives who agree with that assessment BainsBane Oct 2017 #83

The issue is the toxic moral cancer of the GOP, not how #45 is perceived. VOX Oct 2017 #85

I have always viewed the term leftist (as well as progressive) as referring to economics only... LostOne4Ever Oct 2017 #88

I'm just glad our Democratic Party is a big tent. KY_EnviroGuy Oct 2017 #89

I'm a liberal and that op reads like something from Russia. Something to cause distraction rockfordfile Oct 2017 #97

No. Nonhlanhla Oct 2017 #99

If one sees capitalism as the root of the problem, guillaumeb Oct 2017 #101

"I have never seen..." Have you seen any form of capitalism practiced throughout Europe? BzaDem Oct 2017 #113

Capitalism is a business philosophy. guillaumeb Oct 2017 #115

What about an answer to my question? :) BzaDem Oct 2017 #116

yep. JHan Oct 2017 #128

Deploying Democratic division as distraction from recent, real Republican revolt. FreepFryer Oct 2017 #105

Fabulous post! Squinch Oct 2017 #111

Thanks for making it easy for me GulfCoast66 Oct 2017 #119

Unregulated capitalism is a Republican idea and no one on the left thinks it's a good one. betsuni Oct 2017 #122

I don't agree with the liberal/leftist division, but I agree that Trump is a symptom... Buckeye_Democrat Oct 2017 #123

Na'. Liberals viewed Trump as a monster threat to everything they ideologically stood for... Drunken Irishman Oct 2017 #125

You nailed it. grossproffit Oct 2017 #132

+1 betsuni Oct 2017 #135

That entirely ignores whether or not Trump is singular. He is probably not even singularly stupid JCanete Oct 2017 #140

We all knew what we were going to get with Trump We got it. Drunken Irishman Oct 2017 #141

In hindsight Trump's rise is not surprising. Willie Pep Oct 2017 #126

How about, just a plain 'ol democrat? demosincebirth Oct 2017 #127

which ones wear the Che Shirts ? JI7 Oct 2017 #129

Not liberals. grossproffit Oct 2017 #131

Trump is not the problem Trumpocalypse Oct 2017 #130

Thinking capitalism is the problem will get us nothing. Total Socialism ruins everything equally 7962 Oct 2017 #133

There is no clear-cut, objective, generally accepted difference between a "leftist" and a "liberal." pnwmom Oct 2017 #134

Capitalism... CanSocDem Oct 2017 #136

I thought you were a Socialist? snooper2 Oct 2017 #137

So we're in agreement... The first step is removing him from office Blue_Tires Oct 2017 #138