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haele

(15,392 posts)
166. The south was going economically downhill just before the Civil War...
Thu Oct 26, 2017, 03:58 PM
Oct 2017

And that was due to their income inequality and reliance on Slavery.
The political elite were not going to give up their slaves, and even though there was the potential for robust manufacturing in the South, the use of slaves to provide cheap labor over hiring free workers tended to stifle manufacturing innovations that could have decreased the reliance on subsistence farming. The majority of the people who settled in the South during the 1840's and 1850's either stayed where they were or went out of the South - to the North or out to the frontier territories instead of Southern cities because there was very little opportunity for most free worker in the South if an employer could just "rent" a slave whenever s/he needed one instead of hiring someone outside the family full time and investing in their advancement to improve the business.

This was one of the keys to the success of Northern businesses. Northern businesses tended to look at action within a market of other businesses as a means of maintaining profit and growth. If a business failed - you picked yourself up and started off somewhere else. A typical Northerner had the ability to start out at the ground floor anywhere, learn a trade, and then strike out on his or her own to compete with anyone and everyone else.
However, antebellum Southern businesses - primarily the plantations, commodity traders and transportation organizations, and most their downstream and upstream chains - tended to focus on maintaining costs as a means of profits; their businesses were not so much part of a larger market economy one could easily enter or exit; businesses were seen as part of a family net worth that needed to be maintained.
And if a potential worker didn't already have a connection to be able to walk into a skilled or semi-skilled position - or the funds to start one's own business, s/he was competing with slaves that were made available to work for a small rental fee or for barter by a slave-owner looking to make some extra money. A business owner didn't have to worry about treating a slave with dignity or screwing him/her over - or the slave making any trouble. S/he only had to worry about the person the slave was rented from.

Unlike in the North or out in the Territories, there were few "walking in on the ground floor" positions available to an average immigrant or economic migrant looking for work anywhere in the South. If the South had won the Civil War and was able to "maintain it's particular institution", Southern economy was still going to take a severe nosedive within a couple decades that it wouldn't be able to pull out of until it finally got rid of slavery and started opening up its workforce. However, I shudder to think of how the South would handle all the people that were enslaved prior to that point...I suspect it would have been by sending any non-white "back to Africa" or with a KKK-like organization on steroids.

Haele

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Agreed. I believe this country should be broken up into as many as democratisphere Oct 2017 #1
Russia is winning Ezior Oct 2017 #5
what "they" want? Sounds to me like some here want it. DrDan Oct 2017 #11
Exactly. Russia is just one part of what used to be the Soviet Union... Thor_MN Oct 2017 #12
Yes. We would be better. Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #131
Except the "alcoholic sister" is oppressing/enslaving Corvo Bianco Oct 2017 #153
Yes, they are winning CanonRay Oct 2017 #29
The GOP has been dividing us for decades. It is what they want. Irish_Dem Oct 2017 #58
I don't want the country to break up, but we really, really REALLY need to get out of the habit Ken Burch Oct 2017 #132
Easy to say if you live in the North. lagomorph777 Oct 2017 #47
Think that will soften them up to vote for a more progressive positive democratisphere Oct 2017 #63
I call it the Southern Hangover Strategy. lagomorph777 Oct 2017 #103
Okay, that made me laugh! fleur-de-lisa Oct 2017 #90
I've been hearing this from right wingers for years radical noodle Oct 2017 #57
This country is too large to manage. Government is in total gridlock democratisphere Oct 2017 #61
Government was never imagined to be "Efficient" moda253 Oct 2017 #164
No, No & No peggysue2 Oct 2017 #101
But who will be in charge of the nukes? The Wielding Truth Oct 2017 #152
So dissolve the Union and let self-deportation handle the problem? Orsino Oct 2017 #2
THAT is what Putin wants! pangaia Oct 2017 #6
This is what the Russians want, screw them and their overtly obvious trolls uponit7771 Oct 2017 #3
i don't check w/ russia before i decide what to think. nt TheFrenchRazor Oct 2017 #124
Sounds good to me! I've been living down south now for almost 2 years and as far as I'm concerned Luciferous Oct 2017 #4
roads northward are open . . . I, for one, would appreciate a few moving out of my state DrDan Oct 2017 #9
My husband has a contract that is up in a couple of months and we will be going back up north. Luciferous Oct 2017 #10
Well, don't come up here to Wisconsin, it's run by the rightest of the right. AJT Oct 2017 #18
Ha, I grew up in Paul Ryan's district! We are thinking at the very least Luciferous Oct 2017 #19
What southern state do you live in? Blue_true Oct 2017 #33
I live in MS, right outside of Memphis. Thanks for Luciferous Oct 2017 #107
Near Oxford? Dorian Gray Oct 2017 #129
No, DeSoto County Luciferous Oct 2017 #148
I have hear similar things in Ohio. It is a mindset. I was fixing my Demsrule86 Oct 2017 #28
Don't know what part of the south you're in radical noodle Oct 2017 #59
I live in the Atlanta suburbs. MarvinGardens Oct 2017 #67
Me too, and I agree. Doodley Oct 2017 #147
Please, some of the most racist areas are in the Rust Belt and the midwest obamanut2012 Oct 2017 #93
Good don't subject your son bdamomma Oct 2017 #127
My son who has recently told me he's gay- yeah, no way I'm making him grow up Luciferous Oct 2017 #149
LGBT people bdamomma Oct 2017 #159
+1,000,000 to that. bluepen Oct 2017 #35
Can we be called "South Canada"? forgotmylogin Oct 2017 #42
Then leave -- we'd prefer less people down here telling us how we suck obamanut2012 Oct 2017 #92
Unrec. FSogol Oct 2017 #7
ahhh - more bigotry/prejudice directed toward southern states DrDan Oct 2017 #8
My prejudice toward the south is fully justified, thank you Orrex Oct 2017 #22
I am a southerner, the south is a mixed bag. Blue_true Oct 2017 #36
Got to disagree GulfCoast66 Oct 2017 #154
With the right wing and their belief in not having a government... Initech Oct 2017 #13
Imagine being the surveyor that gets the job of laying out THAT border: sl8 Oct 2017 #14
There's a big chunk of blue... yallerdawg Oct 2017 #16
Interesting... sarisataka Oct 2017 #21
Well, population is the deciding factor, no? Orrex Oct 2017 #24
So it is too hard? sarisataka Oct 2017 #25
No, but that kind of has nothing to do with the OP or your previous reply Orrex Oct 2017 #26
The point is sarisataka Oct 2017 #32
Well, Pennsylvania is certainly chock full of racist Republicans.... Orrex Oct 2017 #41
Pennsyltucky mac56 Oct 2017 #85
This message was self-deleted by its author GulfCoast66 Oct 2017 #155
Oklahoma and WV - not ONE blue county. HughBeaumont Oct 2017 #17
If the country is split up, people will have to move to the country they prefer. Blue_true Oct 2017 #38
That map is really sobering janterry Oct 2017 #78
Not so much, Clinton won the popular vote by three million Spider Jerusalem Oct 2017 #102
Yes, I agree... Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2017 #15
Hmmm... 52 posts and is advocating secession LonePirate Oct 2017 #20
"Da" is my conclusion. BannonsLiver Oct 2017 #46
This message was self-deleted by its author sl8 Oct 2017 #48
I had the same thought PJMcK Oct 2017 #49
Was thinking the same exact thing... GoCubsGo Oct 2017 #68
In a drive-by, at that. Orrex Oct 2017 #87
Dont be too hard on him. S/hes doing his bit for the red, white, and blue Vogon_Glory Oct 2017 #88
Another Southern attack... GulfCoast66 Oct 2017 #23
No need to stereotype anything, just look at the demographics. procon Oct 2017 #83
Absolutely not... Demsrule86 Oct 2017 #27
Americans are deeply divided, but it's not a 50-50 split Blaukraut Oct 2017 #30
You would need a Constitutional Convention PJMcK Oct 2017 #51
Exactly what Putin and the Russians want. Greybnk48 Oct 2017 #31
Too bad you weren't around 156 years ago. Progressive dog Oct 2017 #34
That is not what the poster advocated. Blue_true Oct 2017 #39
Nations do not break up because of social policy. Progressive dog Oct 2017 #121
Could slaves have been freed without the civil war? Was there another way to do it? Irish_Dem Oct 2017 #60
Exactly what ideas would you have for Lincoln? Progressive dog Oct 2017 #120
Yes you are right. He had no choice. I suppose if the south had won the war Irish_Dem Oct 2017 #125
The south thought that they had formed their own country. Progressive dog Oct 2017 #134
None of it worked out for them. The south never recovered economically from the Civil War. Irish_Dem Oct 2017 #139
The south was going economically downhill just before the Civil War... haele Oct 2017 #166
Haele, thank you so much. Fascinating. A couple more questions if you don't mind. Irish_Dem Oct 2017 #167
Yup, grew up with History Teachers... haele Oct 2017 #168
Here I thought I was unique in my questions, in good company with Churchill. Irish_Dem Oct 2017 #169
Are you confused by what I said? Greybnk48 Oct 2017 #86
I think you are confused as to what you said Progressive dog Oct 2017 #118
... LexVegas Oct 2017 #37
this is stupid...will never happen...how is the weather where you are? snooper2 Oct 2017 #40
This Southerner says rateyes Oct 2017 #43
Amen! moose65 Oct 2017 #54
I love this idea. Cobalt Violet Oct 2017 #44
It's easy... quickesst Oct 2017 #45
I think there was a war about breaking up the Union PJMcK Oct 2017 #50
The concept of mass migrations both north and south seems particularly ill-considered. SQUEE Oct 2017 #75
Let them have the north I would rather live in the south if they doc03 Oct 2017 #52
are you referring to us Southerners? You would prefer we not be here? DrDan Oct 2017 #65
Let the Trumpsters move north and we can move south. nt doc03 Oct 2017 #111
Wow. Just wow. moose65 Oct 2017 #53
well said DrDan Oct 2017 #66
Uh... NO! radical noodle Oct 2017 #55
Naw snowybirdie Oct 2017 #56
It worked out great for India and Pakistan... LanternWaste Oct 2017 #62
Deep racism can be found in ALL parts Golden Raisin Oct 2017 #64
Just like a Rebel hurl Oct 2017 #69
Good Job maxsolomon Oct 2017 #70
Da Comrade.. denbot Oct 2017 #71
Riiiight. nt JustABozoOnThisBus Oct 2017 #72
stop. just stop. 0rganism Oct 2017 #73
If you are serious, I disagree. MarvinGardens Oct 2017 #74
The only problem I see is that the transition would take decades and during that Hoyt Oct 2017 #76
But it was treason when the Confederacy wanted to do that. B2G Oct 2017 #77
Thanks for a highly divisive and pretty idiotic OP SCantiGOP Oct 2017 #79
Fuck that. No more messages from Moscow. nt Ilsa Oct 2017 #80
Yea they have infiltrated bdamomma Oct 2017 #135
No then putin would win TEB Oct 2017 #81
No. area51 Oct 2017 #82
That's not their vision & they won't accept that. They want it all. CrispyQ Oct 2017 #84
Comrade Scrotodude is right! LunaSea Oct 2017 #89
As a Texas liberal I would respectfully request that you fuck right off elehhhhna Oct 2017 #91
This Florida liberal +1 obamanut2012 Oct 2017 #94
Simple and right to the point! MuseRider Oct 2017 #104
Thanks and good to see you here elehhhhna Oct 2017 #115
:-) MuseRider Oct 2017 #116
Hahaha! peggysue2 Oct 2017 #108
This is all Brexit Calexit bullshit elehhhhna Oct 2017 #114
You are not . . . peggysue2 Oct 2017 #123
Spot on Hekate Oct 2017 #151
Sing it sista! Texasgal Oct 2017 #146
My idea (when I was really frustrated) was BLUE/RED ID cards that determine services, schools, taxes ecstatic Oct 2017 #95
The South this time MuseRider Oct 2017 #96
Nope JHan Oct 2017 #97
Putin would approve still_one Oct 2017 #98
That won't solve a thing BainsBane Oct 2017 #99
I think you're forgetting about Idaho and Montana... (nt) ehrnst Oct 2017 #100
This looks like a hit and run but I would like to know MuseRider Oct 2017 #105
I don't blame him/her for not responding - being uncovered as a bigot can do that to a person DrDan Oct 2017 #109
True! n/t MuseRider Oct 2017 #110
Screw that Hekate Oct 2017 #106
What a brilliant idea!!! Stinky The Clown Oct 2017 #112
Moscow Idaho, Moscow Maine, Moscow North Dakota, Moscow Minnesota, Moscow Wisconsin, Moscow Illinois DrDan Oct 2017 #117
After the installation of Trump, GallopingGhost Oct 2017 #113
It would be simpler just to scrap the electoral college struggle4progress Oct 2017 #119
i like it... haha. nt TheFrenchRazor Oct 2017 #122
Putins big dream lunasun Oct 2017 #126
Read the book Dorian Gray Oct 2017 #128
Better yet, give Mexico back its territory. Tatiana Oct 2017 #130
Let's just go back to the places our ancestor's lived bathroommonkey76 Oct 2017 #133
Their country? oberliner Oct 2017 #137
It's pretty simple, oberliner. bathroommonkey76 Oct 2017 #138
Their country? oberliner Oct 2017 #140
The NATIVE AMERICANS COUNTRY! bathroommonkey76 Oct 2017 #141
There was no Native American country oberliner Oct 2017 #142
Dude bathroommonkey76 Oct 2017 #143
I've just never heard of anyone seriously proposing that all immigrants leave the United States oberliner Oct 2017 #144
And I have never heard of anyone seriously proposing bathroommonkey76 Oct 2017 #145
Gotcha oberliner Oct 2017 #163
Staggering irony in a post like this oberliner Oct 2017 #136
If the country were split in 2 there would eventually be another war between the states Thekaspervote Oct 2017 #150
Except right now, Federal government is about like red state's government. Hoyt Oct 2017 #156
Posting divisive shit like this on your 52nd post GulfCoast66 Oct 2017 #157
NO, absolutely NO! nt Raine Oct 2017 #158
Woah. Calm down. doodsaq Oct 2017 #160
I'm not sure why you have the impression the RW "in this country" is a southern thing DrDan Oct 2017 #162
Texas welcomes the idea HAB911 Oct 2017 #161
Yes, YES, and steal all the public land, and DRILL BABY, DRILL, .... L. Coyote Oct 2017 #165
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