General Discussion

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)

125. I don't accuse her of lying, I accuse her of being completely tone deaf

Mon Oct 30, 2017, 11:04 PM

Oct 2017

What was incomprehensible was her Iraq position as a candidate from about 2005 to 2008. That was in sharp contrast to Obama's position of "I didn't support the war then and I don't support it now. "

I will accept there was a certain degree of moral cowardice in the Freedom Fries era. But by the time the Iraq war was a complete failure she should have been able to move on. In 2008 Hillary Clinton would not say the Iraq war was a mistake and she got in on the Iran chest thumping.

Lowly Democrats looked at this and just said "Nope."

In any event Biden dropped out after Iowa where he was a rounding error, he wasn't a factor but if he too were up against Obama who was untainted by the Iraq war it would have been an issue. Biden could have won in 2016 but only as Obama's third term, without Obama he is nothing.

Bush national security advisor Stephen Hadley is a friend of Hillary Clinton, I think she honestly believed what she was told about Iraq because she trusted him. That is me casting Hillary as a relatively innocent victim of deception.

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Can we admit finally that sexism was a huge problem in both 2008 and 2016 elections [View all] dsc Oct 2017 OP

I think Obama would have won in 2008, no matter what bearsfootball516 Oct 2017 #1

If Hillary had been nominated in 2008 MichMary Oct 2017 #4

The sexism problem was with the Democratic Primary in 2008 whopis01 Oct 2017 #5

So you think HRC ClarendonDem Oct 2017 #27

I think the OP is just saying sexism was a factor LisaM Oct 2017 #37

She lost by a tiny margin. Sexism could certainly have tipped the race to him. nt pnwmom Oct 2017 #66

I remember DU during 08 primary bobbieinok Oct 2017 #54

I was called "a old hag" for supporting HRC. LisaM Oct 2017 #60

One DUer said HRC was tired, disappointed old woman bobbieinok Oct 2017 #61

I left DU for two years after the 2008 primary. xmas74 Oct 2017 #79

In 2008 Clinton's enthusiastic collaboration with GWB was still in very recent memory Sen. Walter Sobchak Oct 2017 #91

What on earth are you referring to? LisaM Oct 2017 #110

Post removed Post removed Oct 2017 #117

By "double down" do you mean "keep correcting those who said she lied?" ehrnst Oct 2017 #121

I don't accuse her of lying, I accuse her of being completely tone deaf Sen. Walter Sobchak Oct 2017 #125

To blame Hillary for the Iraq war is beyond ridiculous. LisaM Oct 2017 #122

Nuance. ehrnst Oct 2017 #123

Nobody blames her for the Iraq war Sen. Walter Sobchak Oct 2017 #126

So Hillary Clinton, a female, "married herself to Bush...."? What do you think.... George II Oct 2017 #124

If they, in 2007 were also joining the chorus against Iran Sen. Walter Sobchak Oct 2017 #128

You mean like ehrnst Oct 2017 #137

Can explain what you mean by "enthusiastic collaboration?" ehrnst Oct 2017 #114

Yeah, I think that was a hit and run! LisaM Oct 2017 #115

(crickets) ehrnst Oct 2017 #116

Sorry for the inconvenience, I have a job. Sen. Walter Sobchak Oct 2017 #118

And... ehrnst Oct 2017 #120

No, because this whole Iraq thing.. JHan Nov 2017 #143

This. Dear God, this. (nt) ehrnst Nov 2017 #144

What you said, bobbieinok. It was shocking. nt Hekate Oct 2017 #131

really? DonCoquixote Oct 2017 #52

Why would you post such a polarizing statement? It's not Obama's fault that Trump's president. Ken Burch Oct 2017 #74

What I meant was MichMary Oct 2017 #77

The reality was that '16 was going to be a problem year. Ken Burch Oct 2017 #87

Several of you blame the party without any proof that this is what the problem was. stevenleser Oct 2017 #107

OK...there were factors in and out of our control Ken Burch Oct 2017 #129

the problems in the house and senate go back decades Sen. Walter Sobchak Oct 2017 #119

I disagree totally. No one could've beaten Obama in 2008. It was something like I had never seen... Honeycombe8 Oct 2017 #132

Were you replying to me? MichMary Oct 2017 #135

That's beside the point. Sexism was still a factor, and that's wrong. n/t pnwmom Oct 2017 #65

It's a huge thing in every election with more than one gender on the ballot Lee-Lee Oct 2017 #2

I think they mean the 2008 primary and the 2016 general, not vice versa Not Ruth Oct 2017 #3

There was plenty of sexism in the 2016 primaries. comradebillyboy Oct 2017 #78

Are we supposed to be admitting GaryCnf Oct 2017 #6

The two reporters most credited with setting the tone turn out to be sexist pigs dsc Oct 2017 #8

So Obama won the nomination in 2008 GaryCnf Oct 2017 #11

anyone running in 2008 would have won a majority dsc Oct 2017 #12

You can pull out the MCLurkin crap all day and night if you wish BannonsLiver Oct 2017 #16

The media was on his side and he drew large crowds at rallies... LisaM Oct 2017 #63

I define it by who wins and loses BannonsLiver Oct 2017 #64

Ir certainly helps when the media favors you. LisaM Oct 2017 #67

That is pure revisionist history. GaryCnf Oct 2017 #17

I was referring to McClurkin not Wright the fact you didn't know that shows dsc Oct 2017 #18

Tell me about McClurkin's role GaryCnf Oct 2017 #41

I already did dsc Oct 2017 #43

So the character of someone who GaryCnf Oct 2017 #46

yes since he was warned just what he was when he had him do so dsc Oct 2017 #47

You're willingness to slander Obama GaryCnf Oct 2017 #48

It is not slander dsc Oct 2017 #50

Some folks scream sexism BannonsLiver Oct 2017 #20

Obama was a better candidate that is true Tavarious Jackson Oct 2017 #26

Not sure I agree ClarendonDem Oct 2017 #28

Sure she did. Tavarious Jackson Oct 2017 #29

But President Obama ClarendonDem Oct 2017 #30

He was only a state senator Tavarious Jackson Oct 2017 #33

I'm not arguing she wasn't qualified ClarendonDem Oct 2017 #35

I love them both Tavarious Jackson Oct 2017 #38

yup ClarendonDem Oct 2017 #39

Barack Obama won the US Senate seat in an election in 2004 . Yes he was also a state senator lunasun Oct 2017 #57

She was in the Senate for twice as long as he was dsc Oct 2017 #31

8 years versus 4 years isn't that much of a difference ClarendonDem Oct 2017 #32

By that reasoning John McCain was the best candidate lunasun Oct 2017 #58

That's good news.... tonedevil Oct 2017 #85

So what. The primary electorate that year didnt care. BannonsLiver Oct 2017 #55

Now imagine for a second that she had won in 08 dsc Oct 2017 #14

Lol you are trying to give Halpern way too much credit Egnever Oct 2017 #21

"the most racist nation on earth" former9thward Oct 2017 #40

I gather you are not black GaryCnf Oct 2017 #42

Oh, btw GaryCnf Oct 2017 #44

My original post stands. former9thward Oct 2017 #49

Now "Obama proved were not racists?" GaryCnf Oct 2017 #56

You really fail in logic. former9thward Oct 2017 #68

Do you mean I did not list one such country? GaryCnf Oct 2017 #70

Easy. former9thward Oct 2017 #71

Pay attention friend GaryCnf Oct 2017 #72

No, thousands of slaves weren't put on crosses and crucified like in Rome. former9thward Oct 2017 #75

Millions died in the Middle Passage BainsBane Oct 2017 #100

How is that on the U.S.? former9thward Oct 2017 #101

Where did the British import slaves to? BainsBane Oct 2017 #103

Additionally, the US maintained its own slave trade BainsBane Oct 2017 #105

Btw GaryCnf Oct 2017 #73

My copy of the Constitution is different than yours. former9thward Oct 2017 #76

Yes, I distinctly remember GaryCnf Oct 2017 #80

It did end. former9thward Oct 2017 #95

Coming from someone GaryCnf Oct 2017 #111

The institutions of transatlantic slavery was radically different BainsBane Oct 2017 #99

The only competition BainsBane Oct 2017 #94

No the U.S. did not have apartheid. former9thward Oct 2017 #96

Jim Crow was indeed apartheid, BainsBane Oct 2017 #97

Apartheid was an institutional failure that burned out quickly Sen. Walter Sobchak Oct 2017 #130

Although not the reason why Obama won, lapucelle Oct 2017 #104

Wow. I didn't remember all that. It's chilling what those media guys said. Chilling. Honeycombe8 Oct 2017 #133

2008 was Obama's moment, lapucelle Oct 2017 #136

They were, statistically speaking, neck and neck. (nt) ehrnst Oct 2017 #138

The qualifier "statistically speaking" obscures a greater truth GaryCnf Nov 2017 #140

"radically undercounts votes in caucus states" ehrnst Nov 2017 #141

Good point GaryCnf Nov 2017 #142

I voted for Obama in 2008 primary, in part, because I thought Clinton ran a despicable campaign. David__77 Oct 2017 #7

on the subjects of despicable campaigns dsc Oct 2017 #9

Yea. About that. . . When my brother told me he was voting for Trump... CousinIT Oct 2017 #10

Their reporting influenced how others reported mcar Oct 2017 #13

Yep. cwydro Oct 2017 #15

Yes, as long as we can also admit that it wasn't the only problem. meadowlander Oct 2017 #19

well, just accepting sexism isn't part of my game plan, that's for sure. nt TheFrenchRazor Oct 2017 #24

I don't accept it. meadowlander Oct 2017 #36

This message was self-deleted by its author Mediumsizedhand Oct 2017 #83

You don't accept it? BainsBane Oct 2017 #90

+ a million! lunamagica Oct 2017 #92

The media was reluctant to cover HRC campaign events live because lapucelle Oct 2017 #93

Cool your jets. I voted for her and I know it wasn't her only message. meadowlander Oct 2017 #109

If you think that Hillary's message was "Vote for me, I'm female" you were obviously not paying lunamagica Oct 2017 #81

This is simply the lazy, non thinking, non factual attack so often used on Clinton that can in no Mediumsizedhand Oct 2017 #84

I know. It's baffling how someone can post such blanket, absurd, untrue statements and get away lunamagica Oct 2017 #88

I didn't say it was her only message, or even that it was her message at all. meadowlander Oct 2017 #108

This message was self-deleted by its author Mediumsizedhand Oct 2017 #82

That's one way to advertise that you never informed yourself BainsBane Oct 2017 #89

Nothing like broadcasting that you were a willfully uninformed voter. brer cat Oct 2017 #106

+1000 (nt) ehrnst Oct 2017 #113

Perhaps you don't understand the difference between "a huge problem" and "the only problem?" ehrnst Oct 2017 #112

I think the sexism does run deep marylandblue Oct 2017 #22

agree with you 100% nt Tavarious Jackson Oct 2017 #25

I'm male ClarendonDem Oct 2017 #34

it is, but some people will never admit it. nt TheFrenchRazor Oct 2017 #23

Absolutely. lindysalsagal Oct 2017 #86

Admit or not, it is a reality. Not a tough one. As the hate for Obama stemmed from bigotry, Mediumsizedhand Oct 2017 #45

And still is a big problem. eom guillaumeb Oct 2017 #51

how are we going to win 2018 and 2020 DonCoquixote Oct 2017 #53

No!!!! Not in 2008......... USALiberal Oct 2017 #59

I agree about Obama. No one could've beaten him. But sexism was involved... Honeycombe8 Oct 2017 #134

Both sides took turns savaging Hillary Awsi Dooger Oct 2017 #62

Oh great, let's not re-fight the 2016 primary, let's go all the way back to 2008! X_Digger Oct 2017 #69

While an Obama supporter in 08, Sanders in 16 - I do agree sexism existed lovemydogs Oct 2017 #98

::Carefully reviews thread:: ::sighs:: Apparently not. n/t TygrBright Oct 2017 #102

My reaction as well. ismnotwasm Oct 2017 #127

Yes, and the piece by Rebecca Traister which inspires the Vox Article is spot on... JHan Oct 2017 #139