General Discussion

Tommy_Carcetti

(44,594 posts)

123. While I understand the desire to take a stronger line on sexual assault and harassment...

Sat Nov 18, 2017, 08:39 AM

Nov 2017

....in light of the stories these past few weeks, this is absolute overkill that is going to create inevitable backlash.

Yesterday I heard Ezra Klein—who’s a good writer no doubt—insist on NPR that we somehow retroactively shame Bill Clinton for his affair with Monica years ago.

It was a dumb and selfish move on his part that damaged his overall legacy, but it was still a consensual affair between two adults, and it made no difference if she was 21 or 61.

People soon realized making hay about it and demanding he resign or be removed about itonly made themselves look extremely stupid.

If we demanded all Presidents who had affairs in office be retroactively shamed and shunned or say should have resigned we’d have easily 2/3rds of them to deal with.

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So pissed at Kristen Gillibrand for saying Bill should have resigned [View all] librechik Nov 2017 OP

In HRC's new book What Happened she mention that Gillibrand was a victim of assault. nycbos Nov 2017 #1

I understand. But I still won't vote for her in a primary. The clip of her saying she believed the Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #213

Re-Thinking My Thought She Might be Ready for National Stage Stallion Nov 2017 #2

I have re-thought it. She's not. nt jrthin Nov 2017 #78

Me, too. We can do better. n/t pnwmom Nov 2017 #119

She's lost my support. smirkymonkey Nov 2017 #147

Maybe she should have mentioned it took a felony to uncover the consensual R B Garr Nov 2017 #3

She was indicted, but never went to trial. The charges were dropped n/t SFnomad Nov 2017 #5

It was still a felony. Felony charges were brought against her. nt R B Garr Nov 2017 #6

And she still did not go to trial and she was not convicted. SFnomad Nov 2017 #9

It was still a felony -- secret wiretapping. That's the point. She R B Garr Nov 2017 #11

And she still did not go to trail and she was not convicted. That is the point, period. SFnomad Nov 2017 #12

ONLY because she received immunity from a Clinton hunter, Ken Starr. R B Garr Nov 2017 #13

It does not matter why. She was not convicted of a felony, period. n/t SFnomad Nov 2017 #14

It certainly DOES matter why and it does matter who granted her immunity. R B Garr Nov 2017 #15

Who was never CONVICTED in a court of law. n/t SFnomad Nov 2017 #16

Because she got IMMUNITY from KEN STARR. R B Garr Nov 2017 #17

ffs, that is NOT a CONVICTION, period. n/t SFnomad Nov 2017 #20

Because she got IMMUNITY from KEN STARR. R B Garr Nov 2017 #23

She was NEVER CONVICTED, period. SFnomad Nov 2017 #24

She got IMMUNITY from KEN STARR. She was indicted on FELONY charges. R B Garr Nov 2017 #25

The charges were not dropped because she received immunity from Starr SFnomad Nov 2017 #29

No, you go ahead and pretend that FELONY wiretapping is not the issue here. And I R B Garr Nov 2017 #31

AND NO COURT FOUND HER GUILTY ... ffs n/t SFnomad Nov 2017 #32

BECAUSE SHE GOT IMMUNITY FROM KEN STARR R B Garr Nov 2017 #34

NO, NOT BECAUSE SHE RECEIVED IMMUNITY. SFnomad Nov 2017 #35

NO YOU DIDN'T POST QUOTES, THERE ARE MORE QUOTES R B Garr Nov 2017 #36

Yes I did. But you're free to ignore whatever doesn't match your reality. SFnomad Nov 2017 #38

There are YEARS worth of "quotes" LOL, it was over a YEAR to get the indictment, R B Garr Nov 2017 #40

I'm not rewriting history ... and you don't get to ignore it. SFnomad Nov 2017 #44

It is a historic fact that the tapes were illegally obtained. R B Garr Nov 2017 #46

You dont get to rewrite YEARS of legal wrangling R B Garr Nov 2017 #60

"we" know ... well, let's just throw out the legal system. R B knows better. n/t SFnomad Nov 2017 #63

This is factual history now, and lots of people R B Garr Nov 2017 #65

What's factual history is the case was dropped and she was NEVER convicted of a felony n/t SFnomad Nov 2017 #67

What is factual history remains that we heard R B Garr Nov 2017 #68

And in our legal system, if you're indicted, but not convicted ... the indictment means nothing SFnomad Nov 2017 #69

The facts remain that the tapes were obtained R B Garr Nov 2017 #70

I'm so glad we don't need a legal system anymore. If it's in the news ... GUILTY as charged. SFnomad Nov 2017 #72

No, what's sad is the stupid red herring that is supposed to be some R B Garr Nov 2017 #73

I have never denied that events did or did not occur. SFnomad Nov 2017 #80

NONE of what you are obsessing about here has to do with the FACT that R B Garr Nov 2017 #84

I'm so glad you can dispense with our court system. She was indicted ... BUT NEVER CONVICTED. SFnomad Nov 2017 #88

Having fun?? Such deliberate obtuseness. She received IMMUNITY, R B Garr Nov 2017 #90

LOTS of people discussing Linda Tripp's IMMUNITY. R B Garr Nov 2017 #91

See if you can answer this question. A mob captain who has killed 12 stevenleser Nov 2017 #204

Of course you're right... but, also wasting your time on this person. InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #144

So true. I was just amusing myself at the obtuseness R B Garr Nov 2017 #153

I agree rtracey Nov 2017 #49

Thanks, there were years of legal wrangling. So we are talking R B Garr Nov 2017 #51

The case never went to trial because a judge did not believe the victim. lapucelle Nov 2017 #146

Thanks! Great link, lapucelle. I read through this along with a R B Garr Nov 2017 #161

I heard Mika say yesterday that Bill Clinton lapucelle Nov 2017 #166

Exactly! Lewinsky was their muse/puppet for their blatant power grab. They are R B Garr Nov 2017 #170

And the victim Lewinsky never got her day in court lapucelle Nov 2017 #172

Yes, and walk away she did. It was purely circumstantial manuevering. R B Garr Nov 2017 #176

Lets see if that person can answer my #204 above. nt stevenleser Nov 2017 #205

lol, Perfect! That's a perfect analogy. R B Garr Nov 2017 #206

+1 oasis Nov 2017 #175

But she did it...she broke the law and was morally culpable and would have faced jail time Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #215

The charges were NOT dropped because of her immunity. I never said she didn't do it. SFnomad Nov 2017 #219

Are you kidding? It's called IMMUNITY... there's no doubt a felony was COMMITTED though. InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #139

ffs, the case was NOT dropped because she got immunity. SFnomad Nov 2017 #185

Yes. InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #186

You were saying it was dropped because she was innocent R B Garr Nov 2017 #203

I never said that ... quit lying about me. You're the only one misrepresenting here. n/t SFnomad Nov 2017 #209

You were implying that no conviction meant there R B Garr Nov 2017 #212

I did not imply any such thing. Again, quit lying about me. SFnomad Nov 2017 #216

You dont get to rewrite history. R B Garr Nov 2017 #220

You are lying about me, again .... STOP. SFnomad Nov 2017 #221

You dont get to rewrite history. There are years R B Garr Nov 2017 #222

You don't get to continue to lie about me ... so stop it now. SFnomad Nov 2017 #223

You should stop, too. The continued denial R B Garr Nov 2017 #224

You need to stop lying about what I have said. SFnomad Nov 2017 #225

You should quit lying about me, as well. R B Garr Nov 2017 #229

STOP LYING ABOUT WHAT I HAVE AND HAVE NOT SAID SFnomad Nov 2017 #230

Quit lying indeed. Saying she wasnt convicted R B Garr Nov 2017 #231

The charges were NOT DROPPED because of any immunity she had SFnomad Nov 2017 #232

There are lots of posts from the prosecutor saying the immunity R B Garr Nov 2017 #233

Buh bye n/t SFnomad Nov 2017 #234

Not quite FBaggins Nov 2017 #126

It was Linda Tripp invested in exposing them R B Garr Nov 2017 #149

I guess she forgot about Clarence Thomas. Cattledog Nov 2017 #4

Yeah, that was my first thought on reading this too. kydo Nov 2017 #140

Not smart. I don't get why she would even go there. It was consensual not sexual harassment. brush Nov 2017 #7

My wife was in the exact same situation where the boss was having a InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #189

A hostile work environment is not hard to understand. A Democrat who accepted backing and... brush Nov 2017 #192

Why throw Sen. Gillibrand under the bus for stating the obvious? InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #193

What is obvious? Clinton did not sexually abuse Lewinsky, the one who showed him her thong. brush Nov 2017 #194

If I have to explain it to you, there's no point in explaining it to you. InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #195

What's obvious to me is that you know nothing of the details of the Clinton/Lewinsky affair. brush Nov 2017 #196

What is obvious to me is that you do not know the difference between... InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #198

The Clinton/Lewinsky situation was nothing like what you describe. I suggest you research it... brush Nov 2017 #207

Maybe. InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #211

She should not have said anything at all about it period. Wait for the investigation and now with Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #217

She got out over her skis with this one. Very disappointed. BannonsLiver Nov 2017 #8

I think Sen. Gillibrand nailed a perfect landing in this instance. InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #190

Most disagree. BannonsLiver Nov 2017 #191

That's fine... my wife worked for a boss who performed sex acts with a staff worker in the office... InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #199

I agree with the senator. Big Blue Marble Nov 2017 #10

I agree too, but for a slightly different reason. Qutzupalotl Nov 2017 #21

Yes because being President who succeeded a resigning President worked so well for Fors Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2017 #129

Why would he resign. Lewinsky says she initiated by showing him her thong. R B Garr Nov 2017 #22

You are saying that Bill was helpless in the presence of a thong? Big Blue Marble Nov 2017 #45

Im saying he didnt initiate the contact. He should R B Garr Nov 2017 #48

No, he should have ignored her. N/T Big Blue Marble Nov 2017 #50

She might have escalated that risque behavior, R B Garr Nov 2017 #52

And instead he chose to have sex with her mythology Nov 2017 #53

He didnt initiate contact, though. She admitted R B Garr Nov 2017 #59

Due to the nature of inequality, we judge situations differently based on perspective Not Ruth Nov 2017 #127

She admitted she flashed her thong at him. R B Garr Nov 2017 #145

She should have dismissed for SEXUAL HARASSMENT!!! FreeStateDemocrat Nov 2017 #66

I'm with you... there's no doubt Bill Clinton created a hostile work environment. InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #54

Yes loyalsister Nov 2017 #87

So well said. Big Blue Marble Nov 2017 #108

I was blinded by partisanship then loyalsister Nov 2017 #113

Using the model of forgiveness and reconciliation Big Blue Marble Nov 2017 #115

I think so loyalsister Nov 2017 #116

As women have gained more economic power Big Blue Marble Nov 2017 #117

The only person charged with a crime of which Monica Lewinsky lapucelle Nov 2017 #154

Not sure about the point here loyalsister Nov 2017 #165

This message was self-deleted by its author WinkyDink Nov 2017 #125

No matter how many excuses you offer for him, Big Blue Marble Nov 2017 #168

Agreed. Snackshack Nov 2017 #177

Me too... sorry to say. KG just said what a lot of fellow Democrats are thinking. InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #188

hmmm...more attacking of a Democrat...I say no he wouldn't...Trump has assaulted Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #218

You are foolish. Big Blue Marble Nov 2017 #227

There was a time I thought that Gillibrand would be a great candidate for President or VP.... Pachamama Nov 2017 #18

"I want to know why Gillibrand didn't focus on Donald Trumps admitted assault of women." LenaBaby61 Nov 2017 #103

Yes, exactly! smirkymonkey Nov 2017 #150

Excellent last paragraph. Couldn't have put it better. OnDoutside Nov 2017 #182

Yeah, she is off my 2020 list for the Democratic nominee...why would she do this? Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #19

Because Democrats eat their own while GrOPers laugh. Ligyron Nov 2017 #61

You are so right...and it shows a lack of commitment to our progressive goals. If they Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #122

It also, IMO, a lack of ability to think on her feet by sidestepping an ambush journalist's question brush Nov 2017 #228

That is exactly right...and she gave the Gop stuff for future commercials. Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #238

Yep, Bannon is already jumping on her comment to attack Dems and the Clintons brush Nov 2017 #239

President should not be having sex with an intern in the Oval Office oberliner Nov 2017 #26

To say the least! klook Nov 2017 #30

She comes off a bit wishy washy on the Clinton question. oasis Nov 2017 #27

Don't get distracted. HRC just threw some BIGLY shade Trump's way underthematrix Nov 2017 #28

wth are you talking about? Little Star Nov 2017 #33

It pissed me off too - but there were other women who claimed he did lunatica Nov 2017 #37

I will not support her. Bill Clinton was a flawed man. Just like JFK and FDR lunamagica Nov 2017 #39

If you make excuses for Bill, Big Blue Marble Nov 2017 #47

This message was self-deleted by its author lunamagica Nov 2017 #56

So you think he should have resigned? lunamagica Nov 2017 #58

I did then Big Blue Marble Nov 2017 #82

Al Gore would have been a great president, but the biggest mistake he made was to lunamagica Nov 2017 #85

It was consensual, initiated by the adult woman, and they all paid dearly for the foolishness. Hekate Nov 2017 #41

Is there no trap laid for Dems by the VRWC that we will not willingly walk into? LenaBaby61 Nov 2017 #105

Both Gillibrand and Warren have been disappointing on this. ananda Nov 2017 #42

Yep! Little Star Nov 2017 #43

Oh, it's called "positioning" and all politicians do it. Bucky Nov 2017 #55

Consenting adults none of our business. Coventina Nov 2017 #57

Well, if Clinton had said, from the start thucythucy Nov 2017 #137

She is my Senator and I don't agree with her. I hated the investigation at the time & voted for him Madam45for2923 Nov 2017 #62

Philippe Reines called her out on Twitter octoberlib Nov 2017 #64

This reply should be an OP on its own. eom Control-Z Nov 2017 #162

Scratch another one off my list. TheCowsCameHome Nov 2017 #71

This is why Republicans win. They rarely devour their own. VOX Nov 2017 #74

Well, exactly. LisaL Nov 2017 #135

This. 1000 times this! smirkymonkey Nov 2017 #151

I have to say I was shocked at the vehemence of Gillibrand's attack on Franken. I hope the sun keeps OnDoutside Nov 2017 #75

Attacking fellow Democrats seems to be a counterproductive comradebillyboy Nov 2017 #77

No problem being critical, but this was sticking the boot OnDoutside Nov 2017 #79

Agree Meowmee Nov 2017 #76

Sen Gillibrand panicked and threw Sen Franken TheDebbieDee Nov 2017 #81

Fighting for Bill Clinton's reputation is Big Blue Marble Nov 2017 #83

Overly-righteous dems like you are the reason TheDebbieDee Nov 2017 #86

You do not know what you are talking about! Big Blue Marble Nov 2017 #98

+1 Stand and Fight Nov 2017 #124

Please read "The Hunting of the President" pat_k Nov 2017 #94

I will never defend Bill Clinton Big Blue Marble Nov 2017 #96

Dream on. Clinton is still very popular. The gratuitous R B Garr Nov 2017 #99

You are the one dreaming. N/T Big Blue Marble Nov 2017 #100

The gratuitous Clinton bashing is always substance free, just R B Garr Nov 2017 #102

This has nothing to do with popularity. Big Blue Marble Nov 2017 #104

Wrong. He already went through the whole impeachment R B Garr Nov 2017 #106

OK, Big Blue Marble Nov 2017 #109

Its what is reported about his popularity. Reality. nt R B Garr Nov 2017 #110

that being said bdtrppr6 Nov 2017 #111

At that event where I saw him, Clinton also gave an eloquent R B Garr Nov 2017 #114

Bill was a known quantity in 1992. He should have never been nominated. FarCenter Nov 2017 #89

Jeez. Do you remember the excitement of Clinton/Gore? I do. Gillibrand has shown she's weak. chimpymustgo Nov 2017 #95

So Brown, Tsongas, or Kerrey could not have won? FarCenter Nov 2017 #97

no bdtrppr6 Nov 2017 #112

He accomplished a lot as President, despite the impeachment. We were lucky to have him. n/t pnwmom Nov 2017 #120

I could understand it if... pat_k Nov 2017 #92

well said, thanks! librechik Nov 2017 #93

She was 24 in 1997 and our POTUS was over 50 BeyondGeography Nov 2017 #136

I read that to mean Gillibrand was 30. Gidney N Cloyd Nov 2017 #141

Oh...why would that matter? BeyondGeography Nov 2017 #142

Gillibrand was old enough in 1997 to know better. pat_k Nov 2017 #201

Read the "Hunting of the President" pat_k Nov 2017 #200

My issue with Kirstin RandySF Nov 2017 #101

This message was self-deleted by its author Agschmid Nov 2017 #107

This message was self-deleted by its author LovingA2andMI Nov 2017 #118

Not me. Lunabell Nov 2017 #121

I agree janterry Nov 2017 #130

Well, we agree again. Lunabell Nov 2017 #197

While I understand the desire to take a stronger line on sexual assault and harassment... Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2017 #123

I am getting the sense of a "bandwagon" effect. madaboutharry Nov 2017 #128

I dont think he should have resigned over Monica forthemiddle Nov 2017 #131

If it happened today, there would be calls for the president to resign oberliner Nov 2017 #132

Its not an unreasonable thing to say and she is not alone. aikoaiko Nov 2017 #133

You know we have a problem GaryCnf Nov 2017 #134

Epic tone deafness borne out of defending the indefensible BeyondGeography Nov 2017 #143

Excellent thoughts apcalc Nov 2017 #148

This is just so naive it's absurd. Clinton's main "problem" was that he was an R B Garr Nov 2017 #158

I specifically did not GaryCnf Nov 2017 #163

Actually I said in another part of the thread that Bill Clinton should have fired Lewinsky. R B Garr Nov 2017 #167

I guess sexist GaryCnf Nov 2017 #169

This is just an example of hyper-vernacular. If you cram enough of those words R B Garr Nov 2017 #171

As opposed to receiving GaryCnf Nov 2017 #173

Firing her would have prevented any further interaction and certainly R B Garr Nov 2017 #174

So what other GaryCnf Nov 2017 #180

"sex with their intern" She flashed her thong at him in the workplace. R B Garr Nov 2017 #181

Did I not type clearly GaryCnf Nov 2017 #183

LOL, speaking of denial. I said she should have been R B Garr Nov 2017 #187

Narrative triumphs over idealism Not Ruth Nov 2017 #160

Yea, it is "triumphing" brilliantly GaryCnf Nov 2017 #164

It was consensual. That said, apcalc Nov 2017 #138

President Gore mainstreetonce Nov 2017 #152

Gore might have won decisively as an incumbent. FarCenter Nov 2017 #155

Rewriting history mainstreetonce Nov 2017 #156

Or lost a la Ford. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2017 #159

Our attitudes as a nation have PDittie Nov 2017 #157

Our attitudes as species have evolved, America is behind/ahead of some other parts of the world Not Ruth Nov 2017 #178

How many trying to salvage Bill's rep would be okay with a professor and student sleeping together? Jake Stern Nov 2017 #179

The consensual affair was nobodys business. The lying under oath was everybodys. MadDAsHell Nov 2017 #184

An affair between the POTUS and an intern... HopeAgain Nov 2017 #202

What they are moving away from... pat_k Nov 2017 #208

So do those books say HopeAgain Nov 2017 #214

I agree it certainly is improper. LisaL Nov 2017 #210

She didn't do herself any favors, IMO. Laffy Kat Nov 2017 #226

All I know is this customerserviceguy Nov 2017 #235

Not me. I admire Gillibrand for stating this. RelativelyJones Nov 2017 #236

It's the timing that sucks DFW Nov 2017 #237