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all american girl

(1,788 posts)

267. Can we stop with the white man savior crap

Sun Nov 26, 2017, 10:02 AM

Nov 2017

I don't want bernie, I want someone who can connect with women POC, LGBT community, etc. That's not bernie. He has said that our concerns are "identity politics" as if that's bad. He was never vetted properly, and if he runs again, he will.

Here's an issue that he could show us he means to stand with Dems, not himself, and that would be CHIP. He is a sitting senator and I have yet to see him do anything about CHIP. This is healthcare for children...healthcare, his supposed thing. Why isn't he using his platform to shout about this. Nope, he just talks crap about Dems. I just see him caring about himself and not really for the people he claims to want to make changes for. This may be harsh for some, but I need him to prove to me that he stands for what he says, not just for himself, and that's what I see.

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Newsweek: BERNIE SANDERS WILL FACE DONALD TRUMP IN 2020 ELECTION, DEMOCRATS SAY [View all] madville Nov 2017 OP

Biden or Bernie would be great. We are going to need an older, trusted, stable figure. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #1

Old white men oberliner Nov 2017 #3

They can choose a rising star running mate. After living through the Nixon years, we are going to Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #6

I think we should nominate a woman oberliner Nov 2017 #10

I totally love the idea of a POC female, but I keep thinking about the Nixon aftermath. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #20

Long way to go oberliner Nov 2017 #23

If you are old enough to remember the Nixon era, you well know how very bad things are going to get. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #26

Enjoyed the discussion btw you and Oberliner.. pangaia Nov 2017 #49

I agree, I think it will be worse than Nixon and that was bad. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #53

And we ain't even halfway through this yet. eom DonViejo Nov 2017 #131

Yes it is early days. We are just in the beginning of it all. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #132

From what I have read, and heard from assorted talking heads... DonViejo Nov 2017 #139

Yes I would agree, 25% sounds about right. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #143

I cannot see him talked into getting out of office... DonViejo Nov 2017 #145

I think it would require very delicate handling, but Trump could be bought off and Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #146

You may be right thegoose Nov 2017 #301

Some members of congress have been bought off by the Russians too. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #306

Sanders would not be stabilizing. eom Control-Z Nov 2017 #93

Why do you think Sanders would not be stabilizing? Sophia4 Nov 2017 #107

I love Bernie and I am older. I think he would be stabilizing. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #133

I am old and I dont see Bernie as being a positive attribute for 2020. dhol82 Nov 2017 #157

What do you find negative about Bernie? ClarendonDem Nov 2017 #303

First and foremost, in 2020 he will be 79. dhol82 Nov 2017 #305

Say Kamala Harris has a strong showing in the Primary but Bernie gets the nod madville Nov 2017 #9

I would prefer to see a woman at the top of the ticket oberliner Nov 2017 #13

Would love to see that!! InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #148

This old white man agrees. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #11

Exactly. We've had enough of 70+ white men. Wwcd Nov 2017 #36

I agree with you in general, but it is going to be a shit storm when Trump Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #40

Agree. But Bernie Sanders is an extremely divisive person. Wwcd Nov 2017 #47

I see Bernie if a very different light. But I understand there are hard Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #51

Thank you. Wwcd Nov 2017 #59

Is it really Bernie who divided the Democratic Party? Sophia4 Nov 2017 #113

Exactly LiberalLovinLug Nov 2017 #258

Divisive, Lacking persona to heal,Unaswered Questions?, Hiding answers to hard questions, juxtaposed Nov 2017 #78

Who listens to RW Radio? Wwcd Nov 2017 #81

Your points are what is spit every day on R/W radio even the $11 million B/S juxtaposed Nov 2017 #86

I don't see Bernie as at all divisive. Sophia4 Nov 2017 #108

Why the ageism?! InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #149

The Al Franken thread needs more posts... n/m bagelsforbreakfast Nov 2017 #114

At the least, need youth and diversity at the VP Roland99 Nov 2017 #230

No they wouldn't be, and I doubt either will run, but if they do, I would bet money they wouldn't still_one Nov 2017 #12

There are plenty of experienced Dems in their 50's and 60's. We don't need pnwmom Nov 2017 #38

Who do you like? Sophia4 Nov 2017 #115

I haven't settled on anyone yet, but I like Kamala Harris, Adam Schiff, pnwmom Nov 2017 #117

I like Bernie, but I would be surprised if he really runs again. Sophia4 Nov 2017 #120

I like him Bernie too... I'm guessin' he's going to bow out gracefully... InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #152

Welcome to DU!! I am not a Bernie fan but I fully expect him to run again. StevieM Nov 2017 #169

No and no NastyRiffraff Nov 2017 #45

+1. obnoxiousdrunk Nov 2017 #69

Biden and Bernie do not have what is needed delisen Nov 2017 #76

Bernie weak on tRump?! You're kiddin', right? InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #153

Can we please have someone who hasn't already run & lost a primary before? Please? nt Tarheel_Dem Nov 2017 #92

Did you say that when Hillary decided to run? Sophia4 Nov 2017 #116

No I didn't say it when Hillary decided to run. I'm saying it now. That's my privilege. Tarheel_Dem Nov 2017 #126

Oh god no. He'd never bring the blue wave we need with him. bettyellen Nov 2017 #2

Agreed. I'd vote for Bernie over tRump, but not happily. Nt MANative Nov 2017 #8

Really?!!! Are you serious? tomp Nov 2017 #32

Except Bernie isn't a "dem" and his "bros" did no favors for our candidate in 2016. MANative Nov 2017 #63

Mine would be none at all. charlyvi Nov 2017 #71

that puts us not on the same page.... tomp Nov 2017 #87

Wrong charlyvi Nov 2017 #136

I never said he defined the left, so don't put words in my mouth. tomp Nov 2017 #206

But Trump won't be availible to run in 2020. So who is our Dem running against Wwcd Nov 2017 #84

we'll see. nt tomp Nov 2017 #207

Yep, he'd be a terrible President. I wouldn't be happy to vote for him either. stevenleser Nov 2017 #164

I am not a Sanders fan. Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #189

Bernie is good at whipping up crowds. He'd be a disaster as President. kcr Nov 2017 #265

Wow, just wow (nt) ghostsinthemachine Nov 2017 #205

Where was that wave in 2016? guillaumeb Nov 2017 #14

Too many fair weather Dems fell for Russian propaganda and suppressed the vote. Not getting fooled bettyellen Nov 2017 #18

Too manu "occasional" Democrats fell for Trump's racism as well. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #29

If they fell into support for Trump they are not ever liberal. Even if some don't like it, being bettyellen Nov 2017 #68

Yup. Agschmid Nov 2017 #74

Exactly and. Too many were easy marks for delisen Nov 2017 #67

Several people I know in real life were sharing Russian propaganda- they still have no shame about bettyellen Nov 2017 #73

I agree sarah FAILIN Nov 2017 #15

He makes me cringe. Its the Rape Fantasy book that makes me feel so. Wwcd Nov 2017 #50

He's proven his affinity to destroying the Dem Party over damning the RW. Wwcd Nov 2017 #37

Cue the Bernie haters dembotoz Nov 2017 #4

He created them. Wwcd Nov 2017 #64

+1000 charlyvi Nov 2017 #72

++++++Exactly!! R B Garr Nov 2017 #118

Seriously! InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #150

I dont hate Bernie. I just want a Democrat in 2020 Lil Missy Nov 2017 #260

Yep the Bernie haters dembotoz Nov 2017 #263

Year of the Woman is a likelier scenario at this point. L. Coyote Nov 2017 #5

I agree there will be no equivocation about women's rights with what's going on now. WE are the base bettyellen Nov 2017 #16

That'll be the day. PubliusEnigma Nov 2017 #7

It would be a Putin and Trump dream come true. L. Coyote Nov 2017 #19

Post removed Post removed Nov 2017 #17

Boom Me. Nov 2017 #58

We've yet to have an answer & the one they gave is full of holes. Wwcd Nov 2017 #79

OMG...Can't Wait Me. Nov 2017 #83

Sean Hannity juxtaposed Nov 2017 #82

Cute Me. Nov 2017 #85

Pretty doubtful, IMO, but the pundits love to stir shit The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2017 #21

Yup, they sure have been keeping that fight going. Wwcd Nov 2017 #39

I don't hate Bernie awesomerwb1 Nov 2017 #22

Wow, a dozen say mcar Nov 2017 #24

It's The Hill after all... sheshe2 Nov 2017 #88

Yes. But shame on Newsweek for that ridiculous headline mcar Nov 2017 #98

I'm curious to see if the GOP can mount a primary challenge against Trump madville Nov 2017 #25

I think Putin hacked the GOP primaries. If they can get a clean vote this time, who might beat Trump Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #27

Never happen. cwydro Nov 2017 #28

And all the pundits said Trump would never Butterflylady Nov 2017 #41

Sadly, my mother predicted his win. cwydro Nov 2017 #44

I love Bernie, but I'd really like to see the next generation of Dems up at bat. Vinca Nov 2017 #30

How about we try a true progressive over a centrist... tomp Nov 2017 #34

He's not as Progressive as he claims to be. Wwcd Nov 2017 #42

I would so love a real progressive. I am sick of GOP lite. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #57

Who is it you are calling "GOP lite?" sheshe2 Nov 2017 #90

Look at some of the Dems who fought Obama on healthcare and other issues. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #94

So you are condemning Democrats with a broad brush...on a Democratic board? sheshe2 Nov 2017 #99

And they are gone...replaced by Republicans but are we better off without them in the minority.? Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #268

Kind of like "neo liberal" mcar Nov 2017 #101

GOP lite might be the "progressive Republicans" lapucelle Nov 2017 #103

To young to remember McGovern? GulfCoast66 Nov 2017 #96

Nixon beat McGovern. How'd that work out? Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #125

You make my point GulfCoast66 Nov 2017 #135

"I'm a dreamer and I'm not the only one." Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #138

Respect that and agree GulfCoast66 Nov 2017 #156

Good tune...but our country has lurched right...not unlike the 90's when Clinton stopped 16 years Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #269

Gosh a progressive lost 45 years ago? Kentonio Nov 2017 #280

I was mainly responding to the complaint we had never run a progressive GulfCoast66 Nov 2017 #292

Yikes, looks by the responses being a progressive is not popular ........ sigh. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #123

I am a progressive...I simply don't agree with you...it is better to win...we don't have the Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #272

I'm sick of centrists, too, but surely we've got some progressives under 75. Vinca Nov 2017 #140

Sanders support is very weak. He is only +6 against Trump in polling right now. Anyone with Sanders stevenleser Nov 2017 #166

I'm finished with the male candidates delisen Nov 2017 #75

Trump won't be running in 2020. n/t NanceGreggs Nov 2017 #31

I predict that he will. He can't stand not to be the center of attention. StevieM Nov 2017 #208

It's not up to him. NanceGreggs Nov 2017 #216

Why would tanking poll numbers be a problem when they are clearly fake numbers ginned up StevieM Nov 2017 #218

The PTB in the GOP ... NanceGreggs Nov 2017 #222

What I am saying is that GOP voters who like Trump will not believe that they are in the minority. StevieM Nov 2017 #224

What difference does it make ... NanceGreggs Nov 2017 #235

I certainly appreciate all the work you are putting into your very thoughtful posts. StevieM Nov 2017 #242

... NanceGreggs Nov 2017 #249

I thought I addressed the question you posed when I said that Trump has a floor IMO. StevieM Nov 2017 #278

Think of it this way NanceGreggs Nov 2017 #302

Well I certainly feel guilty for not putting as much thought or effort into my posts as StevieM Nov 2017 #307

The GOP can keep him ... NanceGreggs Nov 2017 #308

Neither will be running in 2020 TheCowsCameHome Nov 2017 #33

I predict that Trump and Sanders will both run. Biden too. StevieM Nov 2017 #209

Harvard-Harris on line poll??? sheshe2 Nov 2017 #35

Haaha..really! There it is again. Been proven skewed many times & yet if its all ya got I guess Wwcd Nov 2017 #46

That poll keeps coming up and has been debunked. sheshe2 Nov 2017 #55

That's all we should be looking at now. Without a 2018 super win, Wwcd Nov 2017 #61

It's incredible that they would actually publish that as if it was a regular, scientifically StevieM Nov 2017 #110

I predict... Mike Nelson Nov 2017 #43

I predict the exact opposite. StevieM Nov 2017 #170

... LexVegas Nov 2017 #48

Neither get the red out Nov 2017 #52

Well, let's just do away with primaries then. alarimer Nov 2017 #54

Boy...Talk About Killing The Incentive To Vote Me. Nov 2017 #56

According to The Hill lapucelle Nov 2017 #60

article title: How Dem insiders rank the 2020 contenders............ riversedge Nov 2017 #65

Article content: lapucelle Nov 2017 #70

++++++++ R B Garr Nov 2017 #121

All sheshe2 Nov 2017 #141

Why. The Hill talked to fewer than 12 anonymous Democrats lapucelle Nov 2017 #233

Good Lord no! PoindexterOglethorpe Nov 2017 #62

Ummm... sheshe2 Nov 2017 #142

I know. And that sort of concerns me. PoindexterOglethorpe Nov 2017 #151

The two potential candidates I like the most, Tom Steyer and Jay Inslee, are both over 60. StevieM Nov 2017 #212

E Warren will be over 71 in 2020. lapucelle Nov 2017 #154

Yes, And Bernie Sanders, whose name is at the top of this thread, PoindexterOglethorpe Nov 2017 #160

I can't imagine that HRC or John Kerry will run again. But I also cannot imagine that StevieM Nov 2017 #211

oy librechik Nov 2017 #66

Starting the primary wars a bit early, are we? TreasonousBastard Nov 2017 #77

Works for me. jalan48 Nov 2017 #80

Yes, because Democratic strategists are always such worthy prognosticators. RelativelyJones Nov 2017 #89

. ismnotwasm Nov 2017 #91

+1 nt Skidmore Nov 2017 #106

The Russians would absolutely love that. MrsCoffee Nov 2017 #95

As for me, I will only vote for a member of the Democratic Party GulfCoast66 Nov 2017 #97

Hillary voters will not vote for Sanders and he will need them. TRUMP 8 years it looks like nt Tavarious Jackson Nov 2017 #100

Wait? What? Those who begged, asked, and demanded unity won't unify.... aikoaiko Nov 2017 #173

There was never unity nt Tavarious Jackson Nov 2017 #175

If Sanders was the nominee, I would vote for him of course...but I won't vote for him Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #270

Jeebus, I wish these prognosticators would take a walk, or eat a delicious cupcake before they.... Tarheel_Dem Nov 2017 #102

And He Would Throw The Democratic Party Under The Bus Along the Way... TomCADem Nov 2017 #104

I voted for Sanders in last year's primary .. ananda Nov 2017 #105

+1000 I walked precincts for Bernie in 2015/2016 when the temperature was in single digits. LongTomH Nov 2017 #112

LOLOLOL Maven Nov 2017 #109

No, nearly a dozen. murielm99 Nov 2017 #177

Ha!! :-D NurseJackie Nov 2017 #187

Have we run out of Democrats? traladeda Nov 2017 #111

I can name half a dozen strong up-and-coming Dems in California alone Hekate Nov 2017 #129

I would be very surprised to see either of them nominated DFW Nov 2017 #119

Wish we had a Justin Trudeau Lunabell Nov 2017 #122

*This* Democrat says no. Stinky The Clown Nov 2017 #124

Darn, I have to wash my hair that night. Lil Missy Nov 2017 #127

Oh for the love of Pete Hekate Nov 2017 #128

No, just no n/t riverwalker Nov 2017 #130

Done with the old... Historic NY Nov 2017 #134

This is not because Bernie is some attractive magnetic figure. "It's his policies, stupid." elehhhhna Nov 2017 #137

NEWSWEEK (quoting a dubious source that "polled" fewer than 12 anonymous people): lapucelle Nov 2017 #144

I hope not. PragmaticLiberal Nov 2017 #147

are there any Bots posting in this thread? please let me know juxtaposed Nov 2017 #155

Well THAT is NOT going to happen! democratisphere Nov 2017 #158

"The survey, conducted by the Hill," that also commissions those monthly Harvard-Harris polls ucrdem Nov 2017 #159

Bernie will be the next POTUS. ZX86 Nov 2017 #161

OK Me. Nov 2017 #162

May I join you? Tarheel_Dem Nov 2017 #163

Please Do Me. Nov 2017 #167

Me too, me. sheshe2 Nov 2017 #190

It's More Than Laughable Me. Nov 2017 #193

And by "...a whole lot of Dems" you mean the vocal but tiny minority ZX86 Nov 2017 #195

Those ratings are among voters in Vermont only, NOT "the nation". Why not give us the link? George II Nov 2017 #197

I Mean Those Me. Nov 2017 #198

Where is the link? sheshe2 Nov 2017 #214

It really doesn't matter whether you personally accept Bernie's popularity or not. ZX86 Nov 2017 #234

Your tip could be reversed, too. George II Nov 2017 #293

Bernie's popularity is no laughing matter. ZX86 Nov 2017 #165

Sez You Me. Nov 2017 #168

Too bad they don't vote lunamagica Nov 2017 #182

Don't you mean when they're allowed to vote? ZX86 Nov 2017 #183

GMAB! If anytjing, rhis affected Hillary more than Sanders. There's no way NY would have voted for lunamagica Nov 2017 #194

You can't have both ways. ZX86 Nov 2017 #225

Who is having it both ways? Hillary beat Sanders by 4 million votes, lunamagica Nov 2017 #251

2016 primaries are history. ZX86 Nov 2017 #256

Mark my words. Bernard Sanders will NEVER be president lunamagica Nov 2017 #257

Vermont doesnt have free health care. R B Garr Nov 2017 #283

Nope. Michelle Obama and Joe Biden kick his ass in a popularity contest. MrsCoffee Nov 2017 #291

If he was that popular...he would have been the Democratic nominee. Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #196

The same can be said for Hilliary in the previous general election. ZX86 Nov 2017 #227

She won the popular vote by more than three million votes. That's popular lunamagica Nov 2017 #252

That is true...in fact I supported Pres. Obama and worked for his campaign...it was a much closer Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #277

There are a number of politicians who can do so. George II Nov 2017 #200

Well they better hurry up and get on the stick. ZX86 Nov 2017 #226

Wanna bet? $100 to your favorite charity. Adrahil Nov 2017 #171

I do MFM008 Nov 2017 #176

The most popular politician will be the next POTUS. ZX86 Nov 2017 #180

If it is as simple as that then why??? sheshe2 Nov 2017 #191

Then by all means... sheshe2 Nov 2017 #215

I don't post links Bernie's popularity polls ZX86 Nov 2017 #228

So... sheshe2 Nov 2017 #231

I post links all the time. ZX86 Nov 2017 #236

Ah. sheshe2 Nov 2017 #239

There are 28 million Americans that Obamacare has left behind. ZX86 Nov 2017 #241

Ah. sheshe2 Nov 2017 #246

I'm not a Republican. ZX86 Nov 2017 #250

Where do you get this "most popular politician in the country" stuff? George II Nov 2017 #232

Common knowledge. ZX86 Nov 2017 #237

Common to whom? sheshe2 Nov 2017 #247

People who read news articles. ZX86 Nov 2017 #254

The Harris Poll, commissioned and paid for by THe Hill lapucelle Nov 2017 #238

I don't believe Sen. Sanders is the most popular politician...I see no evidence of this. Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #309

Bernie may be the next president, we'll have to wait and see, but it is crazy to think that StevieM Nov 2017 #220

The last POTUS was a Black man. ZX86 Nov 2017 #229

No he won't. He doesn't have enough support..and will only act as a spoiler if he runs regardless Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #274

Ive heard enough about the millionayuhs and billionayuhs and the one puhcent on Wall Shtreet VOX Nov 2017 #294

How about Jay Inslee (gov of WA) and Eric Schneiderman? jmowreader Nov 2017 #172

I love Jay Inslee and I think he should run. But it looks like he might sit it out. StevieM Nov 2017 #221

He looks good, but in our party a candidate has to have lived a completely pure life jmowreader Nov 2017 #223

I for one would welcome a Sanders presidency, but I hope a new generation steps forward. aikoaiko Nov 2017 #174

I feel the same way mvd Nov 2017 #178

Doubt It DarthDem Nov 2017 #179

To the writer: Please send me what you are smoking hibbing Nov 2017 #181

lol! Quayblue Nov 2017 #240

This article feels like someone trying to bring back avocado appliances BoneyardDem Nov 2017 #184

Good One Me. Nov 2017 #203

hope for Ds 50 people say they will run to make Rs spread thin & spend billions "donor money" Sunlei Nov 2017 #185

Works for me. Go Bernie! Kentonio Nov 2017 #186

Neither Joe Biden or Bernie Sanders will win the Democratic primary...given the divisive effect of Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #188

If he did, that would mean the party he was so quick to disassociate himself with after the still_one Nov 2017 #201

I am hoping he will be told he will not run as a Democrats...we may lose if he runs at all, Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #275

No thanks. sheshe2 Nov 2017 #192

If he is the one nominated I will vote for him Generic Other Nov 2017 #199

Don't we have anyone older doc03 Nov 2017 #202

Biden is a year younger. I expect Biden and Sanders both to run. StevieM Nov 2017 #219

Maybe figuratively speaking loyalsister Nov 2017 #204

Excellant analysis. ZX86 Nov 2017 #248

Does all caps make it truer, or just louder? n/t pnwmom Nov 2017 #210

Uh, he'll have to win the primary first, and MineralMan Nov 2017 #213

That is my thinking as well. Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #276

Allow me to help you there. Kentonio Nov 2017 #281

See, I know that. However, I don't think so. MineralMan Nov 2017 #286

yeah sure.. lol JHan Nov 2017 #217

This is not going to be reality. herding cats Nov 2017 #243

Because Democrats have no viable candidates in their 40s? doodsaq Nov 2017 #244

I have an idea. Why don't we focus all of our energy on 2018 instead of 2020? Yavin4 Nov 2017 #245

So he is gonna be a Democrat again doc03 Nov 2017 #253

He agreed to remain a Democrat but didn't so I honestly don't think he can run as a Democrat... Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #273

Bugger Billy Jingo Nov 2017 #255

New blood in their 40s mshasta Nov 2017 #259

I'd prefer an actual Democrat running xmas74 Nov 2017 #261

Just the suggestion MontanaMama Nov 2017 #262

Lolz...no. JNelson6563 Nov 2017 #264

What a terrific way to guarantee another 4 years of Republican White House! Orrex Nov 2017 #266

Can we stop with the white man savior crap all american girl Nov 2017 #267

Amen and hallelujah! NurseJackie Nov 2017 #271

I'm blushing right now all american girl Nov 2017 #279

Bravo Me. Nov 2017 #284

By all means GaryCnf Nov 2017 #289

I have no idea what you are talking about all american girl Nov 2017 #290

And I'm talking about a future GaryCnf Nov 2017 #295

The thing that cost us the most radical noodle Nov 2017 #296

That doesn't explain GaryCnf Nov 2017 #297

There were a great deal of people who were vulnerable to that radical noodle Nov 2017 #298

As opposed to, GaryCnf Nov 2017 #299

For instance (?) n/t radical noodle Nov 2017 #300

Post removed Post removed Nov 2017 #282

Interesting to see people are still fighting thus xmas74 Nov 2017 #285

interesting, yes. depressing. sad. stlsaxman Nov 2017 #310

No problem. xmas74 Nov 2017 #312

What about Warren? Kennedy? xmas74 Nov 2017 #287

Coronation? Let the people decide JCMach1 Nov 2017 #288

They only polled like 12 Democratic insiders TreeStarsForever Nov 2017 #304

Eh....no Proud Liberal Dem Nov 2017 #311