General Discussion

Festivito

(13,629 posts)

141. We've abrogated our right to general welfare.

Sat Jul 21, 2012, 06:40 AM

Jul 2012

Our right to connect responsibility with right.

No one wants two-year-olds to have a gun.
No one wants gun-felons to carry a gun.

Yet, somehow we cannot talk about this issue? Or, we relent to say "enough" with your rights?

I want to say that I am perhaps more liberal than you on how to manage guns. Liberal as in liberty, free, free to carry. (ASIDE: liberal, left, etc. is misused rhetoric I employ to talk about other misused rhetoric. Oh, the irony.)

What I care about more is whether or not I have made sure my fellow responsible American has received his needed health care, and mental health care, and psychological health care that my view of general welfare allows. We are a rich country. We want to enjoy our riches. The problem is that if we do not share our riches we do not get to enjoy our riches. Disparity of wealth is just as dangerous as disparity of power between carriers and non carriers assembling together.

Denying rights, as we did with alcohol causes people to hoard. It happened with alcohol, it happens with drugs, it happens with guns.

I think we'd agree, but our words are disagreeing.

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Your second amendment rights are getting in the way of our rights. [View all] jillan Jul 2012 OP

K&R TheCowsCameHome Jul 2012 #1

And costing an awful lot of money malaise Jul 2012 #2

I'd like Peepsite Jul 2012 #3

Of course not bbinacan Jul 2012 #7

LOL nt Mojorabbit Jul 2012 #8

Interesting question primavera Jul 2012 #133

+1000....Bingo! rgbecker Jul 2012 #148

Good logic Progressive dog Jul 2012 #152

Cut your 30,000 deaths in half - half of those are suicides. nt hack89 Jul 2012 #196

That I won't: suicides are also considered wrongful deaths by law - n/t primavera Jul 2012 #247

What ever it takes to inflate your numbers? ok nt hack89 Jul 2012 #248

No inflation, just the facts primavera Jul 2012 #250

So violent crime and mental health have a common cause hack89 Jul 2012 #269

So how does the law punish a suicide? N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #282

So a simple test that anyone from 15 to 90 can pass hack89 Jul 2012 #198

Considering how many murders are committed by criminals who cannot legally own guns hack89 Jul 2012 #202

Sure, once a law is passed saying they have to shadowrider Jul 2012 #216

You know, I've never understood this reasoning primavera Jul 2012 #246

It's not reasoning bongbong Jul 2012 #251

Over time our present gun laws have led to a drastic decline in violence and crime. hack89 Jul 2012 #270

Not to mention the intent of the trigger puller vs the intent of the driver... rudycantfail Jul 2012 #268

Amen. F. Kafka Jul 2012 #277

Why don't you give blasting away at silhouette targets a break for a week or so? Hoyt Jul 2012 #32

Ok Peepsite Jul 2012 #79

No lobodons Jul 2012 #160

Replace gun with bbinacan Jul 2012 #4

The difference is it is much, much easier to get a gun. hay rick Jul 2012 #29

um...wut? ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2012 #30

No kidding. Plus, killing 12 people with one knife and injuring Zoeisright Jul 2012 #48

Gun nuts are magical thinkers Scootaloo Jul 2012 #95

Yup. And no, you did not forget the sarcasm thingy. AllyCat Jul 2012 #113

it's easier to get a gun than a knife? ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2012 #146

Actually, in my town, yes. 12K people and one knife "dealer" and at least 3 gun shops AllyCat Jul 2012 #172

And you have to through a criminal backcheck to buy that knife? Really. nt hack89 Jul 2012 #199

wasn't talking about background checks AllyCat Jul 2012 #230

Ease of purchase encompasses more then availability hack89 Jul 2012 #232

Try looking around in any supermarket or hardware store. GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #283

No, bombs are easier. GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #154

You can purchase chemical weapons and bombs? /nt Marr Jul 2012 #111

You can't walk into a store and buy a bomb, no, but if you know what bits to buy shadowrider Jul 2012 #135

If fertilizer bombs are so easy to make... hay rick Jul 2012 #147

I don't know. Let me ask everyone in the U.S. I'll get back to you in 400 years n/t shadowrider Jul 2012 #211

Seems to me such purchases are WATCHED. Pholus Jul 2012 #157

Bullshit! GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #167

Probably. My sense of self-worth is disconnected from the number of lethal tricks I know. Pholus Jul 2012 #170

I don't pride myself on being naive. GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #273

No, you pride yourself on your "power" over others. Pholus Jul 2012 #276

You completely ignored the point. GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #278

Actually, no. I left you some room to make your observation. Pholus Jul 2012 #280

So other forms of violence are OK with you? GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #281

Wow. A "violence culture" eh? Pholus Jul 2012 #286

You don't have to go to a gun store Horse with no Name Jul 2012 #174

All FFLs at a gun show have to have you fill out a 4473 and do and NICS check. GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #279

There is a facebook group in our area Horse with no Name Jul 2012 #287

It's easy to make methamphetamine, too. Doesn't make it legal. /nt Marr Jul 2012 #193

Where did I say making a homemade bomb was legal? Oh, wait. I DIDN'T. shadowrider Jul 2012 #213

Let's try to stay on this logical track. Marr Jul 2012 #256

Let's get more logical if you please shadowrider Jul 2012 #274

You keep talking like no one understands that. Marr Jul 2012 #285

I can easily walk into a large grocery store and buy all sorts of things that nasties can be made of hobbit709 Jul 2012 #272

Yes. You do it every time you fill up your car. GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #156

That explains the huge numbers killed by gasoline attacks every year. Warren Stupidity Jul 2012 #162

Snark is not a rebuttal. GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #165

Yes it is when massively stupid arguments are made. Warren Stupidity Jul 2012 #187

That's like claiming pipes are guns. Marr Jul 2012 #188

It can be MADE into one n/t shadowrider Jul 2012 #214

So? Marr Jul 2012 #258

Good to know Molotov Cocktails aren't bombs. Bottle, gas, rag...boom shadowrider Jul 2012 #275

Yea, this shit happens all the time Confusious Jul 2012 #122

No,no,no!!! DocMac Jul 2012 #126

You can't go to the bomb shop and buy a bomb. Warren Stupidity Jul 2012 #161

Yet we don't see many chemical or bomb attacks. Nor are those protected by an outdated morningfog Jul 2012 #215

This message was self-deleted by its author GarroHorus Jul 2012 #5

Who is talking about having to amend the constitution??? jillan Jul 2012 #9

This message was self-deleted by its author GarroHorus Jul 2012 #11

Regs can be strengthened and existing gun control laws enforced better. DCBob Jul 2012 #17

This message was self-deleted by its author GarroHorus Jul 2012 #19

so its not reallly a constitution issue... DCBob Jul 2012 #21

What "existing laws are not enforced"? former9thward Jul 2012 #27

Laws against straw purchases are almost NEVER enforced NT Trunk Monkey Jul 2012 #101

The straw purchase law is almost impossible to enforce. former9thward Jul 2012 #227

Not entirely true Trunk Monkey Jul 2012 #233

SCOTUS allows restrictions on guns, particularly in public. Hoyt Jul 2012 #34

Or it could go the other way and gun rights could be strengthened. rl6214 Jul 2012 #62

Well NRA and gun types have been working for Obama/Dem's defeat. Hoyt Jul 2012 #72

You never know which way a justice will vote, just look at your new favorite justice Roberts rl6214 Jul 2012 #84

Yeah, I support 2nd Amendment too - I interpret it differently. Hoyt Jul 2012 #86

LOL pocoloco Jul 2012 #46

poof! DCBob Jul 2012 #144

pursuit of happiness was about acquisition of material wealth ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2012 #6

I have to correct you here - the pursuit of happiness is defined as a right. jillan Jul 2012 #14

pursuit of happiness was not about fun things to do ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2012 #22

Not entirely--it's also about getting smarter, acquiring knowledge, MADem Jul 2012 #35

there is nothing in the constitution OR the declaration ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2012 #36

You increase your knowledge every time your eyes take in a new thing. MADem Jul 2012 #37

Why would going to the movies be a stretch? n/t A Simple Game Jul 2012 #38

Because Prodigal believes our rights are limited only to a very narrow band of functions Scootaloo Jul 2012 #98

And they probably don't like movies. n/t A Simple Game Jul 2012 #166

Insure domestic tranquility is, however, in the Constitution. JDPriestly Jul 2012 #45

That works for me. nt MADem Jul 2012 #54

And I don't. PavePusher Jul 2012 #109

Every time someone screams "gun ban"... beevul Jul 2012 #130

Of course the gun defenders maintain that more guns in the hands of more people will result in more yellowcanine Jul 2012 #140

Saying 'happiness' is 'getting stuff' is pretty shallow LastLiberal in PalmSprings Jul 2012 #60

why do people keep thinking i said it was in the constitution ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2012 #67

Wanna chuckle? 2ndAmForComputers Jul 2012 #77

LOL bongbong Jul 2012 #255

Read what the UN has to say about human rights WHEN CRABS ROAR Jul 2012 #63

completely irrelevant... n/t ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2012 #71

June 12, 1776- Virginia Declaration of Rights. Bluenorthwest Jul 2012 #153

No, actually, it's not about material wealth. Scootaloo Jul 2012 #97

wow...everything is a right...unless you're told it's not ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2012 #137

of course we have a right to safety - that NRA meme does not hold water DrDan Jul 2012 #128

no...you don't ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2012 #136

and please continue to listen to your overlords at the NRA DrDan Jul 2012 #139

wow...you just don't get it ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2012 #143

no - I freely admit I do not get this obsession with guns DrDan Jul 2012 #173

Well, my responses have even really been about guns ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2012 #175

we have fundamental rights - recognized by founding fathers DrDan Jul 2012 #176

ok...protected then... ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2012 #178

"nanny state"? - there are thousands of laws and regulations based on protecting citizen safety DrDan Jul 2012 #181

'Pursuit of happiness' was a rewrite and imporvement on the original, which was merely 'pursuit of Bluenorthwest Jul 2012 #150

+1 Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #234

K and freaking R. nt Chorophyll Jul 2012 #10

yes flamingdem Jul 2012 #12

Amen. Nt xchrom Jul 2012 #13

No flames here, I agree with you Downtown Hound Jul 2012 #15

Thank you for your insight. Anything in extreme becomes a problem. jillan Jul 2012 #18

They also never envisioned handguns and assault rifles. Zoeisright Jul 2012 #49

Exactly!....and tri-corn hats and weekend militia drills... As much as they want. N/t pkdu Jul 2012 #52

Then let's apply the same thinking to the first amendment. NewMoonTherian Jul 2012 #82

"They also never envisioned handguns...." PavePusher Jul 2012 #110

Er, handguns have been around since the 14th Century... Johnny Rico Jul 2012 #134

Um, yeah, good luck going on a shooting rampage with that. n/t Downtown Hound Jul 2012 #241

What was the musket in the time in which the 2nd was authored? Marengo Jul 2012 #186

I do too. Agree with you and hate gun nuts, both. calimary Jul 2012 #68

"Assault rifles" has a specific legal definition (ask the BATFE) and are highly regulated. PavePusher Jul 2012 #125

Um, he used an AR-15 fitted with a 100-round drum clip Downtown Hound Jul 2012 #242

I'll repeat, for clarity: PavePusher Jul 2012 #244

Yay great. You found some legalistic mumbo jumbo to hide behind Downtown Hound Jul 2012 #259

That "legalistic mumbo jumbo" is the qualifier for a hefty Federal prison sentance.... PavePusher Jul 2012 #262

These are just a few of the things that pop up when I google AR-15 assault rifle Downtown Hound Jul 2012 #288

Other people's inaccuracies (pardon the pun) are not my fault.... PavePusher Jul 2012 #289

I myself don't consider legislation that could save lives piss poor Downtown Hound Jul 2012 #293

Did the previous "Assault Weapons Ban" "save lives"? PavePusher Jul 2012 #298

Well, the simple fact that as a general rule, states with gun control have less gun violence then Downtown Hound Jul 2012 #299

Cite to your stats, please? n/t PavePusher Jul 2012 #300

The darker the state, the greater gun violence per 100,000 citizens Downtown Hound Jul 2012 #301

Thank you. That is an interesting map and stat set. PavePusher Jul 2012 #302

Do you endorse the possession of machineguns and silencers by law enforcement? Tejas Jul 2012 #219

I also hate Republicans, tailgaters, homophobes, war criminals, Downtown Hound Jul 2012 #243

indeed, and the right to life is a basic human right quinnox Jul 2012 #16

For RWers, inanimate objects - like guns and corporations - have more rights than people. baldguy Jul 2012 #20

zing! fascisthunter Jul 2012 #105

Yes. AlinPA Jul 2012 #23

Fortunately hysteria is a protected right. 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #24

I'm with you on this! Firebrand Gary Jul 2012 #25

Liberals used to say it's a matter of National Security. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #26

This couldn't be a back-handed way for those who want to steal power Fire Walk With Me Jul 2012 #28

Motor vehicles are getting in the way of my rights. Daniel537 Jul 2012 #31

Assault weapons are designed to kill people. Motor vehicles aren't. Chef Eric Jul 2012 #59

Then assault weapons are doing what they are designed for, motor vehicles on the other hand rl6214 Jul 2012 #64

Nerve gas is effective at doing what it's designed for, too. Chef Eric Jul 2012 #70

Not difficult to make rl6214 Jul 2012 #83

You seem to like going off on tangents. Chef Eric Jul 2012 #94

Going off tangents? rl6214 Jul 2012 #117

Again, you're not arguing clearly. Chef Eric Jul 2012 #138

You apparently missed this post by Primavera up thread. rgbecker Jul 2012 #151

59 percent of that 30K are gejohnston Jul 2012 #197

What was my point? rgbecker Jul 2012 #249

No. Who cares about the design? Guns are for KILLING PEOPLE. AllyCat Jul 2012 #116

Mine aren't. What labels do yours have on them? n/t PavePusher Jul 2012 #263

Even with this event murders by "assault weapons" 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #66

I don't understand your point. Chef Eric Jul 2012 #76

Two points really 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #245

And yet over 40K people are killed every year by cars in this country. Daniel537 Jul 2012 #221

Cars have other functions. wickerwoman Jul 2012 #240

Guns have many uses. PavePusher Jul 2012 #264

Because the US economy would grind to a halt. wickerwoman Jul 2012 #267

None of your declaratives are true. Sorry to have to point that out to you. n/t PavePusher Jul 2012 #290

You have to take 2 tests in order to operate a motor vehicle. jillan Jul 2012 #65

Untrue. Completely untrue. N/T beevul Jul 2012 #132

Your auto is tagged and registered. Your usage is routinely monitored. Warren Stupidity Jul 2012 #163

Not if the car stays on private property. GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #168

I only need tags and a license to drive on public roads hack89 Jul 2012 #201

And yet they still kill more than 40K a year. Daniel537 Jul 2012 #223

Fail. n/t ellisonz Jul 2012 #115

Nope. n/t Daniel537 Jul 2012 #222

American Exceptionalism ErikJ Jul 2012 #33

well stated....K and R NRaleighLiberal Jul 2012 #39

I say the same about alcohol - lynne Jul 2012 #40

You are nuts. Nobody will prevent my wife and from enjoying a beer at Lucky Luciano Jul 2012 #56

Alcohol is regulated. Warren Stupidity Jul 2012 #164

Yeah, shhhh!! Someone from the gun lobby Lifelong Protester Jul 2012 #41

How about right to life? mahina Jul 2012 #42

This message was self-deleted by its author bupkus Jul 2012 #44

Pro War fucks protest the family service clinics with little white crosses. lonestarnot Jul 2012 #88

Read you. mahina Jul 2012 #119

This message was self-deleted by its author bupkus Jul 2012 #43

Get these dam people out kitt6 Jul 2012 #47

Putin is a coward. Tejas Jul 2012 #114

Well said nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #50

We have to show ID to get a box of Sudafed Politicub Jul 2012 #51

We're still waiting to hear suggestions of "sensible" gun control laws. Higgs boson Jul 2012 #57

Regulating the buying and selling of ammunition Politicub Jul 2012 #58

Magazine capacity Peepsite Jul 2012 #73

the AW ban was wrong CbtEngr01 Jul 2012 #123

I guess you don't know much about ammunition...or how easy it is to make Higgs boson Jul 2012 #254

Why not figure out what compelled this guy to engage in this despicable act? ethereal1 Jul 2012 #53

The theater is to blame, they should have gotten one of these Higgs boson Jul 2012 #55

A Fox "News" vidoe posted by a gun nut Doctor_J Jul 2012 #238

That just happened to be on a Fox link...it's all over the internet. How about responding to the Higgs boson Jul 2012 #253

^ Definitely! ^ Holmes wired his apartment to explode! Mimosa Jul 2012 #190

Welcome. As usual this is going to be an endlessly futile poo-fight over guns, Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #235

I went and saw Batman last night at midnight, rl6214 Jul 2012 #61

And I went to the store etc without being shot and didn't need to carry a concealed weapon sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #80

Ummm. I thought assault............ yost69 Jul 2012 #69

You thought wrong. EOM Raine1967 Jul 2012 #96

Assault *rifles* are effectively banned (rare exceptions), assault *weapons* are not. Angleae Jul 2012 #131

The dead don't care about the trivial technical minutiae of firearms design. baldguy Jul 2012 #155

Thank You jillian, I agree. knr, nuff said. chknltl Jul 2012 #74

The second amendment isn't getting in the way of any of that. NewMoonTherian Jul 2012 #75

That's why what is styled as 2nd Amendment rights are completely phony. Loudly Jul 2012 #78

And not one fucking thing will change. Nt XanaDUer Jul 2012 #81

I don't know you that well... derby378 Jul 2012 #85

First, pray/send vibes/think positive thoughts for the victims OmahaBlueDog Jul 2012 #87

Excuse Me DallasNE Jul 2012 #106

No, you can't buy guns directly off the internet. GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #159

Are You Nuts? DallasNE Jul 2012 #200

Killing with a firearm The Wizard Jul 2012 #89

jillan I took the liberty of making this a jpeg. Let me know if I should remove it. tdb63 Jul 2012 #90

K&R Firearms in this country are not nearly well-regulated enough. qb Jul 2012 #91

You tell 'em, Jillan. 99Forever Jul 2012 #92

A good way to fuck the NRA is to disrupt their money-making enterprise a little bit at a time. firenewt Jul 2012 #212

I'm not stopping YOU from doing anything. Stop trying to stop me without cause. Sirveri Jul 2012 #93

And I am not trying to stop you from doing anything either. What I would like to stop jillan Jul 2012 #107

Then quit coddling violent offenders with the revolving door! Tejas Jul 2012 #118

This guy had exactly one speeding ticket to his name, law breaking wise. And mass killers tend to yellowcanine Jul 2012 #142

The disconnect between what just happened and that remedy is astounding. Warren Stupidity Jul 2012 #177

Your point is moot, he had no reprisal to fear. Tejas Jul 2012 #209

But you said slap on the wrist; life in prison is not a slap on the wrist. yellowcanine Jul 2012 #220

What is so grueling nowadays about life in prison? Tejas Jul 2012 #225

Prison of any sort is no slap on the wrist. Most people in prison for life or on death row are not yellowcanine Jul 2012 #226

Well, I admit, your "let's not do a fucking thing" idea IS cheaper. Tejas Jul 2012 #229

Of course that is not what I said.....Do you always make people's arguments for them? yellowcanine Jul 2012 #231

Same here. That's why I support mandatory testing and licensing. Sirveri Jul 2012 #158

This message was self-deleted by its author D23MIURG23 Jul 2012 #99

K/R~~~~ LovingA2andMI Jul 2012 #100

What I don't Understand DallasNE Jul 2012 #102

Agreed. But unfortunately the same people that think the NRA is God are also gutting jillan Jul 2012 #108

Your regulations WOULD apply to law enforcement, yes? Tejas Jul 2012 #121

What's Your Point? n/t DallasNE Jul 2012 #191

If YES or NO are too difficult or confusing, I can try posting a poll(?) Tejas Jul 2012 #218

and this is but one misguided person DrDan Jul 2012 #129

I'm Just Now Learning About Mormons. n/t DallasNE Jul 2012 #192

What other legal activites would you like reported to law enforcement? Marengo Jul 2012 #189

So Holmes Legal Rights Trump DallasNE Jul 2012 #194

I notice you didn't answer the question... Marengo Jul 2012 #203

I Don't Answer Stupid n/t DallasNE Jul 2012 #206

No, you can't answer honestly as that would expose your bias. Marengo Jul 2012 #207

KABOOM! fascisthunter Jul 2012 #103

AMEN!!! Some day the American people will stand up to the gun nuts. But what on earth will it take? Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #104

Over half of your list are not "rights". Tejas Jul 2012 #112

Are you not familiar with the Declaration of Independence? jillan Jul 2012 #120

Yes, and those "rights" do not apply to the "feelings" in your OP. Tejas Jul 2012 #124

And "stuff" hahahaha DocMac Jul 2012 #127

We've abrogated our right to general welfare. Festivito Jul 2012 #141

Owning guns is a very LIBERAL IDEA B Calm Jul 2012 #145

It is the most protected amendment there is. jillan Jul 2012 #205

What a stupid post Doctor_J Jul 2012 #239

Lets get one thing straight, I haven't B Calm Jul 2012 #260

You're absolutely right. beevul Jul 2012 #261

Yup Doctor_J Jul 2012 #284

I agree with you, even if technically their are not 'rights'. In MY mind, and MY heart, secondwind Jul 2012 #149

This thread makes me ill. baldguy Jul 2012 #169

Yeah. This. Thanks! n/t Horse with no Name Jul 2012 #179

+100000! jillan Jul 2012 #204

So to be "responsible" means we have to do what you say? Daniel537 Jul 2012 #224

But my life is dependant on some unknown stranger choosing NOT to put a bullet in my head today? baldguy Jul 2012 #228

Your life is dependent on thousands of people making correct decisions every day. PavePusher Jul 2012 #265

+1! Agree completely, jillan... Surya Gayatri Jul 2012 #171

Fuck the NRA! FailureToCommunicate Jul 2012 #180

Thank you! Rants don't get more righteous than that. tridim Jul 2012 #182

you are completely right samsingh Jul 2012 #183

I agree completely. CrispyQ Jul 2012 #184

interpreting the second amendment samsingh Jul 2012 #185

This post says it all. Cleita Jul 2012 #195

Precisely. n/t crim son Jul 2012 #208

hendrix Eljo_Don Jul 2012 #210

THANK YOU! One Voice Jul 2012 #217

Compare buying a gun azureblue Jul 2012 #236

Well stated - n/t primavera Jul 2012 #252

Wow, so much that just isn't true. beevul Jul 2012 #266

99% of the vehicles sold in America are intended to be used on public roads baldguy Jul 2012 #271

Cite for that? beevul Jul 2012 #291

You've got to be kidding. Do wingnuts *always* need some authority figure to tell you what to think? baldguy Jul 2012 #292

You should get out more. beevul Jul 2012 #294

10 days before you get the keys to your new car. Tejas Jul 2012 #295

One car per month. Tejas Jul 2012 #296

No cars allowed in Washington, DC. Tejas Jul 2012 #297

on the flip side though. PatrynXX Jul 2012 #237

You make a good point. senseandsensibility Jul 2012 #257