General Discussion

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)

120. Body armor doesn't do what I suspect you might think it does.

Sat Jul 21, 2012, 09:21 AM

Jul 2012

The sort of body armor Holmes was wearing doesn't allow one to shrug off hits to the armor like they didn't happen (unless the hits are from pretty low-powered rounds). The armor allows one to survive hits that would kill or seriously injure an unarmored person. A hit from something like a .40 S&W, for example (popular self-defense handgun round) would still kick like a mule. It's entirely possible someone could have staggered Holmes, allowing him to be tackled, or for a follow up shot to the head.

Is it likely? Not in my opinion. I agree with the many posters that with the chaos, the gas, the dark, etc., it would have been a very difficult situation in which to get shots on target. Additionally, no responsible shooter would have fired at all unless they could be assured no bystanders were in the line of fire, in front of or behind Holmes. There are lots of situations in which firearms aren't going to be able to provide self-defense. I think this was very probably one of them.

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So, if about 10 people in that theater had been armed... [View all] cynatnite Jul 2012 OP

Chaos. elleng Jul 2012 #1

Yup. When your heart rate races past 125bpm, all logic goes out the window. Zalatix Jul 2012 #17

and there's no way one could reasonably focus, elleng Jul 2012 #25

How would you know if the gunfire DocMac Jul 2012 #29

You obviously haven't watched enough movies. Zalatix Jul 2012 #31

I love movies. I can't remember the name, DocMac Jul 2012 #39

The movie was, "Reservoir Dogs." Fawke Em Jul 2012 #153

That's it. thanks. nt DocMac Jul 2012 #166

Would have no idea. elleng Jul 2012 #34

The situation wouldn't be better if it was DocMac Jul 2012 #40

Note to self...possible bumper sticker: DocMac Jul 2012 #43

Yes, difficult under any circumstances. elleng Jul 2012 #55

These people didn't freeze up GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #93

I didn't need to watch the videos. DocMac Jul 2012 #102

Yet you said: GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #119

+1 Go Vols Jul 2012 #112

The shooter was dressed up like a SWAT, so people would be shooting other people with guns. kemah Jul 2012 #136

Crossfire in the dark aint_no_life_nowhere Jul 2012 #46

Yep. GreenPartyVoter Jul 2012 #110

And your hypothetical scenario happens... how often? PavePusher Jul 2012 #2

Most lawfully armed people aren't trained for situations like this... cynatnite Jul 2012 #4

I ask again for cites to evidence, please. n/t PavePusher Jul 2012 #52

No one is saying it happens. But in the aftermath of a mass shooting, Chorophyll Jul 2012 #64

But there are examples of a private citizen stopping something like this 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #83

Two of those examples are off-duty cops. Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2012 #99

Not multiple, but one Confusious Jul 2012 #6

I live in Tucson as well. PavePusher Jul 2012 #53

So his firearm didn't help in any way? yardwork Jul 2012 #65

Sure can Trunk Monkey Jul 2012 #86

But... AynRandCollectedSS Jul 2012 #92

Jeanne Assam had some police training Trunk Monkey Jul 2012 #97

She wasn't an untrained bystander, though. She was a church usher with a gun. yardwork Jul 2012 #124

What constitutes "training" to you? Trunk Monkey Jul 2012 #129

You are certainly an expert with years of training and experience in firearms. yardwork Jul 2012 #131

You missed the point Trunk Monkey Jul 2012 #133

I'd say that we are both right. yardwork Jul 2012 #134

It has happened several times. GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #88

That's helpful info. Thank you. yardwork Jul 2012 #123

Nearly all mass shootings are stopped by people with firearms. Atypical Liberal Jul 2012 #94

Klebold and Harris at Columbine committed suicide. They weren't stopped by anybody but themselves. yardwork Jul 2012 #122

Lots of these kinds of people commit suicide - after the police show up with guns. Atypical Liberal Jul 2012 #125

That's not what happened at Columbine, though. yardwork Jul 2012 #130

Yes it is - Klebold and Harris killed themselves after they police arrived and they had no escape. Atypical Liberal Jul 2012 #150

When you say 'stopped by people with firearms', you are talking about the police right? sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #141

VT was a gun-free zone. CCWers were not allowed to have guns there. GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #148

What I see is how easily both of them were able to obtain weapons sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #161

Your belief that you can keep dangeous stuff away from people is very naive. GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #165

Police or civilian makes no difference - it's the gun that makes the difference. Atypical Liberal Jul 2012 #149

So that list you made showing how 'guns stopped mass killings' was mostly sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #160

As I said. Atypical Liberal Jul 2012 #163

It happens frequently in the fantasies of right wing lunatics. JoePhilly Jul 2012 #12

49 states have some CHL law, millions of permits have been issued 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #36

I keep trying to get a presentation of evidence.... PavePusher Jul 2012 #54

Pretty much 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #74

We had a case here near us at the state park. It was at a family picnic area pnwmom Jul 2012 #71

Citation, please? n/t PavePusher Jul 2012 #142

Here's one. This article doesn't mention it, but the guy who fired pnwmom Jul 2012 #143

Sounds more like gang rivalry to me. PavePusher Jul 2012 #167

The adults involved were in their thirties, and they were picnicking with their children. pnwmom Jul 2012 #168

I don't think gang rivalry is much of a stretch at all. PavePusher Jul 2012 #169

This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl Jul 2012 #95

It has happened several times. GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #147

Watch the firefight scene in "Platoon" (or the beach landing scene in "Saving coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #3

And those are relevent to a crime in progress.... how, exactly? n/t PavePusher Jul 2012 #56

I've never been in armed combat and cannot say this from coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #91

Self-defense shootings do NOT resemble a combat firefight. GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #152

So I guess the personal testimony of PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #154

So you make a personal attack instead of discussing the post? GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #156

No matter how you try to spin it, the situation in Aurora could not coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #159

I have already posted, in another thread, that a CCWer at that movie wouldn't have been able to help GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #164

Ew. Death porn. Gross. Iggo Jul 2012 #155

Reality. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2012 #157

Yep. Iggo Jul 2012 #158

More people would have been dead Marrah_G Jul 2012 #5

Can you imagine the chaos in a Roman battle? DocMac Jul 2012 #90

Then fewer would have died and fewer injured. Zax2me Jul 2012 #7

The gunman was wearing body armor ... are the other armed people you imagine also wearing ... JoePhilly Jul 2012 #16

Exactly what I was thinking. randome Jul 2012 #19

Exactly. The wild wild west folks don't seem to get this. JoePhilly Jul 2012 #21

Even if a round doen't penetrate the "armor" (and it's really only armor if plates are installed)... PavePusher Jul 2012 #57

Really? bongbong Jul 2012 #111

As I understand the reports, this shooter had only a normal torso vest. PavePusher Jul 2012 #115

LOL bongbong Jul 2012 #135

Meaning that information is still being developed and may/will change over time. PavePusher Jul 2012 #137

What spin! bongbong Jul 2012 #138

Body armor doesn't do what I suspect you might think it does. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2012 #120

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH!!! Zoeisright Jul 2012 #105

Also add to that Sound FX from the movie in surround sound slampoet Jul 2012 #8

Yeah. ananda Jul 2012 #9

It's called a "Polish Firing Squad" (apologies to Pol. They all make a circle and shoot each other. leveymg Jul 2012 #10

People call that a "circular firing squad". nt Gold Metal Flake Jul 2012 #33

Cite to evidence of occurances, please. n/t PavePusher Jul 2012 #58

Who knows if anyone in the theater was armed hughee99 Jul 2012 #11

IMO it's very unlikely that nobody in the audience was carrying a weapon, be it an off-duty cop, slackmaster Jul 2012 #22

I don't know the demographics of the area, so I'm not sure how likely it is hughee99 Jul 2012 #37

Agreed. First the gun owner would have to sort out the chaos, then fight through teargas shadowrider Jul 2012 #151

Actually, it's extremely likely, since this theater bans firearms (nt) jeff47 Jul 2012 #63

A lot more people dead, and the gun crowd spinning, spinning, spinning. apocalypsehow Jul 2012 #13

Personally, Marinedem Jul 2012 #14

You also wearing body armor like the shooter was wearing? JoePhilly Jul 2012 #18

Your statement doesn't even make sense lunatica Jul 2012 #23

Way to miss the point. Marinedem Jul 2012 #51

No, first CCW'er shoots at the real shooter jeff47 Jul 2012 #62

OK. I see you never make sense lunatica Jul 2012 #121

In the confusion, HooptieWagon Jul 2012 #15

Oh, NRA, NRA... Daemonaquila Jul 2012 #48

How many people in that theater actually were carrying licensed, concealed weapons? slackmaster Jul 2012 #20

Even Police miss their target edhopper Jul 2012 #24

What we don't know sarisataka Jul 2012 #26

How do you know there weren't? Tejas Jul 2012 #27

Probably a mistaken assumption that anyone who carries a concealed firearm is eager to use it slackmaster Jul 2012 #28

Correct, the Giffords shooter was subdued without gunplay by the CCW. Tejas Jul 2012 #30

What if, and stay with me here 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #35

That depends on a few things. Tejas Jul 2012 #38

Multiple spare extended mags 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #45

Well THAT presents a problem. Tejas Jul 2012 #50

Do shooters accumulate more Life Points based on hits scored? slackmaster Jul 2012 #73

Whoa, this isn't some kids game 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #84

Sorry, I haven't done much gaming since my son played Super Mario Brothers and DOOM in the '90s slackmaster Jul 2012 #98

Because this theater bans firearms. (nt) jeff47 Jul 2012 #66

That would not surprise me. Do you have a source to verify that? slackmaster Jul 2012 #75

The sign on the door count? jeff47 Jul 2012 #77

Is it a No Smoking, No Flash Photos, No Food or Drinks, No Bare Feet, and No Firearms sign slackmaster Jul 2012 #81

Gun with a circle and a line through it, plus text. (nt) jeff47 Jul 2012 #82

Thanks! Does CO state law require patrons to comply with such a sign, as they do in TX and AZ? slackmaster Jul 2012 #100

Hire your own lawyer. (nt) jeff47 Jul 2012 #140

"3 years later" - you haven't been there in 3 years? Tejas Jul 2012 #104

Roughly. I moved. (nt) jeff47 Jul 2012 #139

It's true, guns are useless in this scenario 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #32

how do you know ten people weren't armed? from what i read, most people didn't even get HiPointDem Jul 2012 #41

not just the "repukes" - plenty of support for that scenario right here DrDan Jul 2012 #42

Gun strokers are usually ready and eager to save the day. TheCowsCameHome Jul 2012 #72

too many John Wayne movies DrDan Jul 2012 #76

safely seated in old movie theater. TheCowsCameHome Jul 2012 #78

False premise. Daemonaquila Jul 2012 #44

Then having them armed doesn't matter. jeff47 Jul 2012 #67

Panic can make people do some stupid things... cynatnite Jul 2012 #96

no, no, no! that's not the way the story goes! remember highlander? there can be only one! unblock Jul 2012 #47

This message was self-deleted by its author GarroHorus Jul 2012 #49

Yes, just like what happens in every other defensive shooting. PavePusher Jul 2012 #59

This message was self-deleted by its author GarroHorus Jul 2012 #79

This is what a friend of mine just said to me. Even if it is a legal weapon, she said that lives Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2012 #60

Not to mention it's dark and there's a huge screen with a loud movie on it. Chorophyll Jul 2012 #61

You beat me to it! TheCowsCameHome Jul 2012 #68

Yup. I'm pretty sure the majority of armed-citizen-heroes Chorophyll Jul 2012 #69

Weird... Jolly Jumper Jul 2012 #70

50 people would be dead now. nt valerief Jul 2012 #80

Then THANK GOODNESS there weren't 10 armed LEO's there. Tejas Jul 2012 #106

Hell, yes. They would have shot and tased everyone. 100 dead. nt valerief Jul 2012 #116

They've been shot dead or wounded, too. TheCowsCameHome Jul 2012 #118

They picture this scene Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #85

this went on for 20 minutes maindawg Jul 2012 #87

How do you know rrneck Jul 2012 #89

See this sub-thread... slackmaster Jul 2012 #101

Ah. Now I'm learning. Thanks. nt rrneck Jul 2012 #103

Nobody knows. Tejas Jul 2012 #107

And there could have been the odd scofflaw I guess. nt rrneck Jul 2012 #108

you can't always know , even in war with trained military, there is "Friendly Fire" JI7 Jul 2012 #109

+1 Go Vols Jul 2012 #114

North Hollywood shootout of 1997 rufus dog Jul 2012 #113

They saw the one guy come in. He stood there for a few secs, surveying the room. nt Honeycombe8 Jul 2012 #117

Here we go with that argument "if everyone had guns we would be safer" liberal N proud Jul 2012 #126

I'm pretty sure... regnaD kciN Jul 2012 #128

What about the notion that gun-free zones are inherently safer? 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #162

The body count would be far, far less. DesMoinesDem Jul 2012 #127

dark theater, loud Carolina Jul 2012 #144

You would rather let a mass murderer shoot everyone in a theater DesMoinesDem Jul 2012 #146

The only one in the theater that was wearing Horse with no Name Jul 2012 #132

Exactly Shankapotomus Jul 2012 #145