General Discussion

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)

95. It's not a "rather than" situation. An event can have more than one cause.

Fri Dec 1, 2017, 01:12 PM

Dec 2017

An event as large and complex as the outcome of a national election is particularly likely to have more than one cause.

You criticize Ken for what you say is a willingness to "blame the 'fall campaign' (Hillary) rather than Putin and the Republicans who I believe stole votes in key states..." I don't see that in Ken's posts at all. It's quite consistent to say that the campaign made mistakes (let's learn from them) AND that the Democratic Party should have done a better job of supporting its candidate (Perez himself has said this, in the appropriate context of addressing a need to improve) AND that Putin exerted influence on behalf of Trump AND that the Republicans stole votes AND that the Republicans engaged in voter suppression (my personal guess is that this factor was more significant than was the outright theft of votes but that's just a guess) AND that there was the Comey letter and so on.

There's a saying in basketball that you have to play both ends of the court (help your team score and help prevent the other team from scoring). Our situation is more complicated in that we have many more than two necessary tasks. It's not "anti-party" to point this out.

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How many on the progressive wing of the Democratic party were duped by Putin?. [View all] Eko Nov 2017 OP

ANYONE and ANYTHING can be easy to manipulate. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #1

Some people are easier than others. Eko Nov 2017 #2

I campaigned for Hillary in the fall. I didn't fall for anything Putin said or did. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #3

Its not my job to pull us together. Eko Nov 2017 #4

I don't claim to speak for "everyone on the progressive wing of the Democratic Party". Ken Burch Nov 2017 #7

That is your opinion that Putins effort did not effect the progressive vote. Eko Nov 2017 #9

I would say that Putin had a far greater effect in swinging working-class voters away from us Ken Burch Nov 2017 #16

Yup, Putin only had to swing/suppress 33,000 votes in the Rust Belt nt Fiendish Thingy Dec 2017 #207

Prove it. No progressives here or any I know elsewhere were influenced by social media associated ancianita Dec 2017 #48

Well, because you dont know any,,,, Eko Dec 2017 #53

You can do that the grey line below your post. Or maybe you did. n/t rzemanfl Dec 2017 #254

Nope. It's not my style. Others can see someone's politics for themselves. I don't censor. ancianita Dec 2017 #258

No. Its a waste of time to keep posting incendiary OPs like this LiberalLovinLug Dec 2017 #238

Huh, that is a pretty bold statement. Eko Dec 2017 #241

Of course there are 'some' LiberalLovinLug Dec 2017 #251

Repeat what? Threatening not to vote democratic ticket unless given a reason to do so? Eliot Rosewater Dec 2017 #253

Repeat inventing a mythical boogeyman in our own ranks as some big problem LiberalLovinLug Dec 2017 #256

We need to examine it to stop it from happening again. Putin will be back next year and Demsrule86 Dec 2017 #72

OK, so examine it. But we can't work on the assumption Ken Burch Dec 2017 #115

Well sheshe2 Dec 2017 #129

It's not "refighting the primaries" just to disagree with what you think Ken Burch Dec 2017 #181

LOL! NurseJackie Dec 2017 #185

"If a person does those things, that proves that person is not refighting the primaries." betsuni Dec 2017 #188

Actually yes, it does. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #190

people disagree with you heaven05 Dec 2017 #264

People have the right to believe I'm wrong if they disagree with me Ken Burch Dec 2017 #271

Nobody is "misusing" anything. NurseJackie Dec 2017 #274

But it is the whole story...that is what you don't get...they revved up hated against Clinton using Demsrule86 Dec 2017 #220

Bernie's campaign was not a help to Trump and Putin. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #239

It was a gift to Trump...all of the wiki that was used...came from that. Demsrule86 Dec 2017 #244

Thank you Ken for your rational explaination LiberalLovinLug Dec 2017 #228

????????????????? heaven05 Dec 2017 #263

I tried to read that and was afraid I'd start screaming and never stop. betsuni Dec 2017 #265

Exactly! peggysue2 Dec 2017 #204

I've been told here that ALL Democrats are progressives-was news to me-so, what does that tell you? InAbLuEsTaTe Dec 2017 #82

You have been told that? sheshe2 Dec 2017 #130

No, don't remember you saying. InAbLuEsTaTe Dec 2017 #131

I said it...all Democrats are progressive...there are degrees of course...Manchin and Feinstein Demsrule86 Dec 2017 #221

Are you going to now defend Eko Nov 2017 #5

No. I won't defend them. I have no idea why you think I would. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #6

Well, Eko Nov 2017 #8

I didn't SAY that Stein wasn't a problem. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #14

So they do not fall in the wing Eko Nov 2017 #15

Stein and Sarandon were in the Green Party Ken Burch Nov 2017 #17

Stein leads the Green Party-to my knowledge she was NEVER a Democrat. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #25

Reformation? Deadline for nailing your 95 Theses on How The Democratic Party Sucks betsuni Nov 2017 #23

Not "how it sucks"(I never use or even think phrases like that)but how it needs to change Ken Burch Nov 2017 #26

No it doesn't. The 'change' you advocated would cause us to lose...the courts are already being Demsrule86 Dec 2017 #73

I agree that we can't afford another loss Ken Burch Dec 2017 #119

You made me spit out my wine. sheshe2 Dec 2017 #134

Good thing Ken 'splained to me the Reformation thing was a metaphor. betsuni Dec 2017 #140

Why is it so important to you to imagine that I'm talking down to you? Ken Burch Dec 2017 #173

I can see what you type. betsuni Dec 2017 #174

And what I typed on the Reformation thing was simply about making it clear Ken Burch Dec 2017 #175

Hillary Clinton's not my mom. betsuni Dec 2017 #179

And Bernie's not my dad. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #180

Rumor has it that Martin Luther suffered from pretty bad flatulence. betsuni Dec 2017 #182

OK...if you're a socialist(what country do you live in, btw)what is your issue with me? Ken Burch Dec 2017 #192

Lest you think I'm lying, that I'm not a socialist and Hillary is my mom: betsuni Dec 2017 #184

I don't think you're lying, but what you said there has nothing to do with anything I said. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #191

well sheshe2 Dec 2017 #132

If you want go to after Sarandon, fine. I seriously doubt she influenced much of anyone. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #148

same here.... samnsara Dec 2017 #76

And you're not going to pull us together by sneering at "dismissive centrists." betsuni Dec 2017 #139

That was in response to a collective attack on "the progressive wing of the Democratic Party" Ken Burch Dec 2017 #144

Oh Ken, you deleted just for me? My heart is pounding and my palms moist with perspiration. betsuni Dec 2017 #149

I deleted because I realized I could phrase it better than that. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #158

Simple, honest question. does this mean if democrats or liberals are yelling at you Eliot Rosewater Dec 2017 #164

It isn't about ME-and here's what my comment means: Ken Burch Dec 2017 #165

Yay, I was hoping we'd see another Hillary vs Bernie thread soon. lagomorph777 Dec 2017 #116

LOL, no some of us are skeptical, some are not. bettyellen Dec 2017 #63

Good post. Could have saved myself some time had I read this before responding myself KPN Dec 2017 #105

Evidently a lot. sadiegirl Nov 2017 #10

Yup. Eko Nov 2017 #11

Im a progressive and run in many progressive circles DangerousUrNot Nov 2017 #12

Atheist also. Eko Nov 2017 #13

Im about to watch them now. DangerousUrNot Nov 2017 #18

That was a damn good watch. DangerousUrNot Nov 2017 #24

Actually, it's more like..."Ok Putin was involved...but so what? What do we do with that?" Ken Burch Nov 2017 #29

And this is emblematic of the problems with the JPR mindset stevenleser Nov 2017 #40

Bravo Steven. Eko Dec 2017 #47

+1 betsuni Dec 2017 #50

Exactly they ignore and downplay Russia because they like anything anti HRC- same shit as the GOP. bettyellen Dec 2017 #64

The "real issue of Russian meddling?" GaryCnf Dec 2017 #69

It is your OPINION that you are pushing here regarding the cause of those numbers stevenleser Dec 2017 #84

Okay GaryCnf Dec 2017 #86

I don't have anything to do with "the JPR mindset". I've never been a member of JPR Ken Burch Dec 2017 #120

Bulls eye. sheshe2 Dec 2017 #133

+1 Hekate Dec 2017 #169

See Ken...this is the problem...you would rather ...against all evidence...blame the Demsrule86 Dec 2017 #74

Yep, that's exactly it. nt stevenleser Dec 2017 #87

It ruins their narrative that we have to address the Dem shortcomings because we lost Demsrule86 Dec 2017 #89

It's not a "rather than" situation. An event can have more than one cause. Jim Lane Dec 2017 #95

That is a good point...I can't disagree. And I would even suggest there are multiple levels of Demsrule86 Dec 2017 #98

Blaming the fall campaign is not the same as attacking Hillary. I respect Hillary Ken Burch Dec 2017 #121

I'm with you; it does no good to bury our heads in the sand on these things. alarimer Dec 2017 #81

so what? sheshe2 Dec 2017 #135

I'm trying to get everyone to talk about what is happening now. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #146

Where did I say anything about 2016? Eko Dec 2017 #166

OK, I've assumed it was that election that you were referring to when you spoke of Ken Burch Dec 2017 #167

Huh, Eko Dec 2017 #168

Only, Eko Dec 2017 #170

And there it is. Eko Dec 2017 #171

I didn't put words in your mouth at all. I simply came to what seemed a logical conclusion. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #172

Of course you put words in my mouth. Eko Dec 2017 #208

These "progressives" don't think there is evidence now? Adrahil Dec 2017 #68

Personally I think it is Hillary hate.. DangerousUrNot Dec 2017 #118

You make a lot of generalizations that you can't substantiate... YOHABLO Dec 2017 #186

Well DangerousUrNot Dec 2017 #187

the sheer hatred so many people display towards Hillary Skittles Nov 2017 #19

Hillary is no longer the point. I deeply respect her and mourn the fact that she isn't president. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #30

this lecture is not needed Skittles Nov 2017 #31

Sorry. Wasn't meaning to lecture you personally Ken Burch Nov 2017 #33

Good grief LanternWaste Nov 2017 #34

Just meeting Ken? nt GulfCoast66 Dec 2017 #44

"Damnably ironic" is that poster's SOP. nt Codeine Dec 2017 #96

Some but I am not sure who they were exactly. Willie Pep Nov 2017 #20

A lot and some are still here. Tavarious Jackson Nov 2017 #21

You're assuming that we can't appeal to both. Those two groups largely want the same things. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #27

I know we can't appeal to both. Tavarious Jackson Dec 2017 #127

Pretty much anyone who still believes pizzagate is real is a right-wing extremist. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #147

You are mistaken. yardwork Dec 2017 #150

I doubt it. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #157

Same here. nt Blue_true Dec 2017 #109

Look Russia has never been our friend to assume different......... Historic NY Nov 2017 #22

Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2017 #28

I think you should change Progressive to Populist Wing grantcart Nov 2017 #32

Excellent! That is an excellent point and totally spot on. R B Garr Dec 2017 #125

The ultimate tragedy is some certain people on the left I don't have to name Blue_Tires Nov 2017 #35

Virtually none. Jim Lane Nov 2017 #36

conflicting statements about whether the Russians were involved in the release of the DNC emails? Eko Nov 2017 #37

Were the Russians involved in releasing any falsified DNC emails? Jim Lane Nov 2017 #38

Yes. Eko Nov 2017 #39

So of 150,000 emails, ONE had a phony "Confidential" tag added? Jim Lane Dec 2017 #43

Well Jim, Eko Dec 2017 #46

And last, but not least at all. Eko Dec 2017 #49

Answering your two posts and then I'm probably done Jim Lane Dec 2017 #56

I provided you with "one" Eko Dec 2017 #59

You know they were released with edits and time stamps stricken to fool people/ and fool them they bettyellen Dec 2017 #65

Sorry, no, I don't know as much as you're ready to me credit for. Jim Lane Dec 2017 #94

People were fooled by timestamps, because they assumed the emails were sent earlier bettyellen Dec 2017 #113

Clinton was far more conservative than you? VermontKevin Nov 2017 #41

I didn't say "far". That's your word. Jim Lane Dec 2017 #42

Because I share your leeriness GaryCnf Dec 2017 #67

Thanks, but I haven't always been so prudent. Experience is the best teacher. (n/t) Jim Lane Dec 2017 #91

So is Trump more to your liking? There were only two choices...Trump and Clinton... Demsrule86 Dec 2017 #75

You're just DYING to argue with a Stein voter, aren't you? For that, you'll have to go to JPR. Jim Lane Dec 2017 #90

No one here will ever admit to being a Stein voter (and I am not sure any are here.) Demsrule86 Dec 2017 #93

Thank you for your kind words. Jim Lane Dec 2017 #97

Hahahah...I await my comeuppance for blackening the reputation of serial killers Demsrule86 Dec 2017 #99

Progressives who did not vote for Clinton are left wing fascist GulfCoast66 Dec 2017 #45

Not true RandySF Dec 2017 #52

Well, he WAS sticking it to the West. Jim Lane Dec 2017 #58

Baloney. And I never cheered Putin...not ever. Demsrule86 Dec 2017 #77

A for effort. I'm glad some here are still trying. Thank you Arazi Dec 2017 #252

Not me RandySF Dec 2017 #51

Nope, Eko Dec 2017 #54

just the JPR typs ! stonecutter357 Dec 2017 #55

How can you be duped by someone who is bombing Syrian children? Alice11111 Dec 2017 #57

Al Qaeda bombed Syrian children. David__77 Dec 2017 #60

...and Assad, even in hospitals & schools, under Putin's Alice11111 Dec 2017 #62

Exactly seven were duped. David__77 Dec 2017 #61

How many on the centrist wing of the Democratic Party GaryCnf Dec 2017 #66

Hahah...the Russians target the so called progressives (not Democrats)...the most gullible among us. Demsrule86 Dec 2017 #79

Who/what do you consider the "centrist wing" of the Democratic Party? InAbLuEsTaTe Dec 2017 #83

Who do you consider progressive GaryCnf Dec 2017 #85

Sorry, was trying to have a serious conversation. InAbLuEsTaTe Dec 2017 #102

My apologies GaryCnf Dec 2017 #111

I don't really believe in wings...I hold views on some issues that some could call centrist...and on Demsrule86 Dec 2017 #100

Not surprised at all... appreciate your being candid. InAbLuEsTaTe Dec 2017 #101

Too many. What I find incomprehensible is that some have doubled down and continue to be used. Demsrule86 Dec 2017 #70

I recall lots of RT posting here mcar Dec 2017 #71

Populism has nothing to do with Putin. alarimer Dec 2017 #78

Populism is dangerous...it is used mostly to sway the masses towards a greater evil...consider the Demsrule86 Dec 2017 #80

It can be, but not always. The New Deal and the Great Society were also started with populism. Caliman73 Dec 2017 #103

I don't consider that populism really...but those things were great no matter Demsrule86 Dec 2017 #110

What do you consider populism? Caliman73 Dec 2017 #114

Populism invariably involves manipulative demagoguery. stevenleser Dec 2017 #122

FDR ran a populist campaign, So did Teddy Roosevelt Caliman73 Dec 2017 #138

Thank you! Manipulative demagoguery is exactly R B Garr Dec 2017 #143

My reaction to that comment exactly. KPN Dec 2017 #123

You're using "populism" as a synonym for "demagogy". Ken Burch Dec 2017 #163

I don't hang with MAGATs, just liberals. Greybnk48 Dec 2017 #88

Quite a few and I think we still have some on 'our' side still doing the dirty work for him nini Dec 2017 #92

Ummmm .... from what I've read all people KPN Dec 2017 #104

None. KPN Dec 2017 #106

Oh, and stop the divisiveness man. KPN Dec 2017 #107

Thank you. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #117

McCarthyism? Me. Dec 2017 #137

I have always found populists to be way too emotional. Blue_true Dec 2017 #108

What's a populist? KPN Dec 2017 #124

The collective attack on "the progressive wing of the Democratic Party" as dupes of Putin. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #145

Electoralaction ... I like it! KPN Dec 2017 #152

please heaven05 Dec 2017 #155

The OP didn't say we were ALL duped. It specifically singled out ONE WING OF THiS PARTY Ken Burch Dec 2017 #156

if you say so heaven05 Dec 2017 #160

Read the thread title. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #162

And that means Eko Dec 2017 #210

It means you rhetorically singled out progressive Democrats as dupable, and without call. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #213

No, just more dupable. Eko Dec 2017 #214

And you offer nothing to truly support that assertion- Ken Burch Dec 2017 #217

You have made this assertion Eko Dec 2017 #222

Now you're bringing Bernie into this? Ken Burch Dec 2017 #223

Ha. Eko Dec 2017 #224

No it isn't. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #225

So Eko Dec 2017 #226

He organizes with us in the Senate and campaigns for our ticket in the fall. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #229

So you can Eko Dec 2017 #231

Being a nominal independent is not the same thing as "being in another party". Ken Burch Dec 2017 #232

Is Sanders Eko Dec 2017 #233

In his case, it is a meaningless distinction. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #234

He has ran Eko Dec 2017 #236

in a mayor's race in the Seventies. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #240

And two senate elections. Eko Dec 2017 #242

Yeah. But he's never going to do that. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #246

Why do you keep Eko Dec 2017 #248

I didn't. YOU are the one who won't let it go. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #250

Where did I bring it up? Eko Dec 2017 #259

And six house elections, Eko Dec 2017 #243

LOL! NurseJackie Dec 2017 #245

I mean this is on his site, Eko Dec 2017 #235

I find it extremely intersting that you keep Eko Dec 2017 #215

I'd bet cash money on can't see it. betsuni Dec 2017 #216

I'm largely responding to you tirade about what "mainstream Democrats" Ken Burch Dec 2017 #218

It's not as though non-voters want something different than the people you label "populists". Ken Burch Dec 2017 #159

I was duped MaryMagdaline Dec 2017 #112

You were duped by Russian trolls until you reslized KPN Dec 2017 #126

I did not know they were Russian trolls MaryMagdaline Dec 2017 #128

I applaud your ability to analyze the situation and admit to yourself TheDebbieDee Dec 2017 #151

I try to be aware of manipulation MaryMagdaline Dec 2017 #153

Thank you for posting this. It's exactly how they did it. yardwork Dec 2017 #154

Good Question Eko Me. Dec 2017 #136

K&R JHan Dec 2017 #141

Despite all the hooha here, thanks for posting. Liberal In Texas Dec 2017 #142

How many centrists sold out the Democrats base to hedge fund managers? yurbud Dec 2017 #161

ah yes the usual catch words: JHan Dec 2017 #176

And I wonder who "you guys" are. betsuni Dec 2017 #177

Another version of Democrats are Gop Lite meme. JHan Dec 2017 #178

If today's centrist made policy like those guys, Democrats would not be wiped out yurbud Dec 2017 #189

If you can't tell the difference between the corporate welfare sell outs of the GOP... JHan Dec 2017 #193

I know. You want to win without offending this guy: yurbud Dec 2017 #195

Don't inject strawmen into our discussion JHan Dec 2017 #196

Why don't Republicans seem bound by incrementalism? Or Democrats when it comes yurbud Dec 2017 #199

You're basically ranting now. JHan Dec 2017 #200

I never said Republicans were any good at governing. Even if I keep voting for Democrats yurbud Dec 2017 #247

I saw that millennials poll. JHan Dec 2017 #257

How exactly is misrepresenting what I'm saying an insulting me helping anyone? yurbud Dec 2017 #249

Yes, but Nancy and Chuck "attacked the rich" despite what Clooback threatened. lapucelle Dec 2017 #262

I am glad to see that. thanks! yurbud Dec 2017 #266

It's also disingenuous to say that the ACA was from the heritage foundation... JHan Dec 2017 #194

Ooops. Obama said as much himself: yurbud Dec 2017 #197

I just laid out the clear differences between the plans. JHan Dec 2017 #198

I'm glad it's better and I said it was better than what existed before yurbud Dec 2017 #201

It was a less ideal solution in less than ideal circumstances... JHan Dec 2017 #202

we agree on all of that. Since Democrats ended up passing it with a simple majority yurbud Dec 2017 #205

"nothing stopped them from adding the public option" JHan Dec 2017 #260

That is the unhappy truth: the obstacle was "centrist" Democrats who yurbud Dec 2017 #267

er JHan Dec 2017 #268

Who in a red state doesn't want decent public schools, free college, and Medicare for all? yurbud Dec 2017 #269

And you act like they haven't...or that those policy issues are simple.. they aren't. JHan Dec 2017 #270

Scotland article said tuition was free, but it sounds like they cut other grants that helped poor yurbud Dec 2017 #272

and maybe we could have substantive discussions instead.. JHan Dec 2017 #273

I'm sure there are some. Eko Dec 2017 #209

Do you really believe many of them will admit it? sadiegirl Dec 2017 #183

How Many? peggysue2 Dec 2017 #203

And how many were duped by the dupes? Fiendish Thingy Dec 2017 #206

A far bigger problem, IMO, is the number of party loyalists who think any criticism is a Putin lie.. aikoaiko Dec 2017 #211

Good point. Eko Dec 2017 #212

Well said. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #219

Here's your final answer Russia now, nor ever has been our friend..... Historic NY Dec 2017 #227

The question now is "how many are still being duped?" Blue_Tires Dec 2017 #230

I remember 2014 and Ukraine. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2017 #237

During the primary I saw people say that Hillary and Trump were the same. nycbos Dec 2017 #255

yep. JHan Dec 2017 #261