General Discussion

Tom Rinaldo

(23,185 posts)

144. What makes you assume those voters were nominal Democrats, or even left of center to begin with?

Sat Dec 2, 2017, 02:38 PM

Dec 2017

It's was well documented during the primaries that a number of people who were completely disillusioned with "the establishment" were drawn to both Trump and Sanders as potential anti-Establishment candidates. It got a lot of coverage at the time. Both Trump and Sanders were seen by a slice of the electorate not reliably Democratic or Republican as protest/change candidates. Those types were no more likely to vote for Hillary Clinton than they were for Jeb Bush, who in some non activist circles were both believed to personify the establishment that had failed them.

Hillary lost a small minority of the people who might have voted for Sanders on the Democratic ticket, and no doubt the same would have been true the other way around for possibly different reasons.

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To the people who keep saying "get over it" about the far-left's sabotage of our nation: [View all] DanTex Dec 2017 OP

Let me be the first to say genxlib Dec 2017 #1

Golly, Magoo48 Dec 2017 #194

The OP clearly says that the right, the GOP, BoBs, and Steiners own this. lapucelle Dec 2017 #222

I am K&R-ing BlueMTexpat Dec 2017 #272

Give me a break. jmowreader Dec 2017 #227

Agree 100% nt lillypaddle Dec 2017 #2

You are 100% correct louis c Dec 2017 #3

She got paid for treason, just like flynn Alice11111 Dec 2017 #154

Post removed Post removed Dec 2017 #170

All of those photos are of elected or appointed officails doing their jobs louis c Dec 2017 #178

lol... ok sure. LiberalLovinLug Dec 2017 #182

Name on the ballot to siphen votes louis c Dec 2017 #186

I see that your post was removed. Now, that's funny LOL louis c Dec 2017 #187

yeah... Dorian Gray Dec 2017 #319

Speaking of Jill Stein... rainin Dec 2017 #4

A vote for Stein was a vote for Trump Gothmog Dec 2017 #6

And, as it turns out, a vote for Putin. n/t rainin Dec 2017 #7

Yes workinclasszero Dec 2017 #17

Yes workinclasszero Dec 2017 #16

Technically... chwaliszewski Dec 2017 #96

You are wrong Gothmog Dec 2017 #122

I want to support what you said so I will just do that. Eliot Rosewater Dec 2017 #153

Um...no, I am not. chwaliszewski Dec 2017 #175

Thanks Matt_R Dec 2017 #206

That's your "logic". lapucelle Dec 2017 #232

You completely lost me with this post. chwaliszewski Dec 2017 #234

Assuming the truth of an unsupported conclusion lapucelle Dec 2017 #242

Let's get back to the original point of all of this... chwaliszewski Dec 2017 #261

The MI and WI tallies support Gothmog's claim. lapucelle Dec 2017 #278

It's a metaphor. It means Stein siphoned off potential Democratic votes which enabled Trump to win emulatorloo Dec 2017 #286

If that is true, then Gary Johnson siphoned off potential Repub votes from Trump chwaliszewski Dec 2017 #317

+1 progressoid Dec 2017 #267

You sound like the Nader supporters.... paleotn Dec 2017 #251

That assumes that the Stein voters were Democrats or would ever vote Democratic. Gore1FL Dec 2017 #104

your statement is of practical use if everyone who voted for Stein.... BoneyardDem Dec 2017 #248

I would agree, personally. Gore1FL Dec 2017 #262

I had heard this very comment from BoBers and Stein supporters BoneyardDem Dec 2017 #287

I am simply pointing out the logical fallacies of many on DU who can't seem to put 2018 in focus. nt Gore1FL Dec 2017 #298

Yes not fooled Dec 2017 #185

She was literally sitting in Putin's table ansible Dec 2017 #14

I was going to post this picture Gothmog Dec 2017 #149

Stein's job in this election was to syphone off Dem votes BoneyardDem Dec 2017 #250

That would be great! Alice11111 Dec 2017 #156

That's on my wish list, Progressive dog Dec 2017 #223

K&R Gothmog Dec 2017 #5

Thank you for speaking the truth! And... AND... NurseJackie Dec 2017 #8

There is no way Sarandon wants a revolution to separate her from her millions delisen Dec 2017 #27

She is the worst, prime example of stupidity. She was also a Naderite. What's the phrase,... brush Dec 2017 #64

She was a Naderite-I had forgotten delisen Dec 2017 #113

Nader gave us the Iraq war, Citizens United and the gutting of the Voting Rights Act Gothmog Dec 2017 #150

Amen. Texin Dec 2017 #124

She was not wrong in that video LiberalLovinLug Dec 2017 #155

What is "exactly what happened?" thucythucy Dec 2017 #165

People are angry and mobilzing. LiberalLovinLug Dec 2017 #181

In the meantime millions more will suffer thucythucy Dec 2017 #216

Great post! brer cat Dec 2017 #283

Thank you. thucythucy Dec 2017 #289

She's as bad as the rapture clowns..... Historic NY Dec 2017 #197

+ a million or so! eom BlueMTexpat Dec 2017 #275

Three times in my lifetime: Nixon, W. Bush, Trump. yardwork Dec 2017 #9

+1 n/t Kind of Blue Dec 2017 #41

100% poppycock belief-based bias, KPN Dec 2017 #10

+1 n/t ejbr Dec 2017 #18

Agreed! LongTomH Dec 2017 #45

yep G_j Dec 2017 #47

"...serves no useful purpose." Agreed. Merlot Dec 2017 #48

Nah, I blame the Sarandon too. That idiot is two-times-stupid. She was a Naderite in 2000 also... brush Dec 2017 #74

Blaming is useless. KPN Dec 2017 #80

Maybe to you. Maybe it'll open some eyes so we don't get three-times stupid voters. brush Dec 2017 #84

I don't believe blaming will have that effect. I have never seen blame do anything positive KPN Dec 2017 #95

Maybe not calling it "blaming" but making people aware of "siren song" pitfalls to avoid... brush Dec 2017 #162

Do you think messaging "beware of siren songs" KPN Dec 2017 #172

And you think that's what happened with the people who sat home, voted 3rd party of wrote in... brush Dec 2017 #180

Yes I do. I think far more people voted or not voted KPN Dec 2017 #193

Yeah, yeah, like some people don't vote for someone because they don't like the sound of their voice brush Dec 2017 #203

Yeah that's it, I'm projecting. KPN Dec 2017 #218

I call them out. It hasn't helped my social relationships, Alice11111 Dec 2017 #161

I agree, have to make them aware of past pitfalls to avoid. brush Dec 2017 #166

It's important to recognize the shit that went wrong BoneyardDem Dec 2017 #253

Um, yeah, but the point is, she's NOT a politician, whathehell Dec 2017 #87

I followed the campaign. She was front and center at many rallies and all over TV in many interviews brush Dec 2017 #93

I followed it too, and I stand by my statement. That said, if whathehell Dec 2017 #108

You're exactly right on those two. And I'll use an old phrase...they are uncle toms. brush Dec 2017 #114

Not a good phrase. Harriet Beacher Stow's, Uncle Tom's Alice11111 Dec 2017 #171

We know about the book. Guess you're not aware that the phrase is from the AA activist community... brush Dec 2017 #184

I know what it means these days, but it was adopted from UTC, Alice11111 Dec 2017 #202

I'm AA and it is meant to offend those who it is directed towards. And they know who they are. brush Dec 2017 #204

Okay, I get you.. whathehell Dec 2017 #207

Agreed, but she drove some to Stein, just as she drove some to Nader in 2000. brush Dec 2017 #243

She may well have done so.. whathehell Dec 2017 #247

All good points. KPN Dec 2017 #79

The far-left bought the lies about Hillary radical noodle Dec 2017 #102

Stop with the "far-left" bullshit. Talk about KPN Dec 2017 #135

I saw them celebrating Trump's election radical noodle Dec 2017 #209

Who's them? KPN Dec 2017 #219

I'm sure you know who radical noodle Dec 2017 #240

You are wrong, the far left did not fall for Russian iies. They had their own reasons LiberalLovinLug Dec 2017 #146

Well said! KPN Dec 2017 #164

Thanks KPN LiberalLovinLug Dec 2017 #183

Not just the far left. I know a lot of Dems who bought the Alice11111 Dec 2017 #176

Yes... I've lost friends too. radical noodle Dec 2017 #210

It does. I agree. Alice11111 Dec 2017 #215

Guess one Susan Sarandon was more powerful than Hillary's army of celebrities... who knew? SMC22307 Dec 2017 #246

Yes mountain grammy Dec 2017 #49

+1 chwaliszewski Dec 2017 #94

+infinity OrwellwasRight Dec 2017 #121

Thank you. Agreed 1000% eom Arazi Dec 2017 #137

You may not like the purpose, but that doesn't mean it doesn't serve a purpose. BzaDem Dec 2017 #157

Shouted to who? KPN Dec 2017 #169

To those who might not be aware of their true natures. BzaDem Dec 2017 #179

No idea what you are talking about. KPN Dec 2017 #188

From the OP: "Jill Stein, Chris Hedges, Cornel West, Jimmy Dore, Susan Sarandon" BzaDem Dec 2017 #198

Look ... I have a basic disagreement KPN Dec 2017 #214

You can disagree with basic logic and the dictionary, but that would make you wrong. BzaDem Dec 2017 #226

Thank you Ferrets are Cool Dec 2017 #212

Yep. "The buck stops here" is a concept lost on too many. (n/t) SMC22307 Dec 2017 #252

Disagree with this HerbChestnut Dec 2017 #11

Or sat out the election n/t ejbr Dec 2017 #19

Yes, those folks too HerbChestnut Dec 2017 #22

For some, not voting is a vote KPN Dec 2017 #75

Truth! chwaliszewski Dec 2017 #97

There were more Green votes than in 2004, 2008, and 2012. DanTex Dec 2017 #23

THIS BumRushDaShow Dec 2017 #40

Thank you. I keep on pointing out that votes for Gary Johnson PoindexterOglethorpe Dec 2017 #44

Gary Johnson BumRushDaShow Dec 2017 #83

It's delusional to think that everyone who voted Green Party is gullible ... KPN Dec 2017 #111

I'm sure there are one or two who aren't total imbeciles. DanTex Dec 2017 #128

Well, that strikes me as a rather arrogant and irresponsible view. KPN Dec 2017 #140

This is not the second time DoctorRobert Dec 2017 #117

**cough**Iran hostage crisis**oil shocks**Ed Koch**cough** JHB Dec 2017 #320

Agree. Alice11111 Dec 2017 #205

Hillary received 60,000 GaryCnf Dec 2017 #270

Thank you. I don't know why this is so hard for people to process. Nay Dec 2017 #25

+1 chwaliszewski Dec 2017 #100

+1000 InAbLuEsTaTe Dec 2017 #254

Please provide a link BlueMTexpat Dec 2017 #276

The few thousand who voted for spoilers, in state "counties" like in Pa.,aided Republican party ONLY Sunlei Dec 2017 #35

No evidence for your claim that I can find. delisen Dec 2017 #36

Thanks for posting this. pandr32 Dec 2017 #103

How does this compare to other elections? .99center Dec 2017 #126

+1000 LongTomH Dec 2017 #46

Yup. And even in that case KPN Dec 2017 #78

Yep. If a transgender woman can win in a conservative Virginia county, SMC22307 Dec 2017 #245

+1 chwaliszewski Dec 2017 #98

16% of Bernie voters in PA voted for Trump leftofcool Dec 2017 #138

What makes you assume those voters were nominal Democrats, or even left of center to begin with? Tom Rinaldo Dec 2017 #144

The OP is clearly NOT BlueMTexpat Dec 2017 #274

Maybe scroll up.... KTM Dec 2017 #288

I wont get over something that will destroy every safety net i have. nini Dec 2017 #12

Many claim their whole game is changing the economy... NCTraveler Dec 2017 #13

Schtroumpf is not solely the fault of "TEH EXTREME LEFT". HughBeaumont Dec 2017 #15

Totally agree with this. Moreover, right depends on sociopathic doubling down to force this kind ancianita Dec 2017 #30

Strawman NastyRiffraff Dec 2017 #71

It is true. Willie Pep Dec 2017 #20

Unfortunately the morons who say those kinds of things don't learn. They don't learn. nt Hekate Dec 2017 #65

DU rec... SidDithers Dec 2017 #21

Sid! greatauntoftriplets Dec 2017 #55

Hey, you! Hekate Dec 2017 #77

Whoa ismnotwasm Dec 2017 #91

Good to see you here Sid mcar Dec 2017 #152

Hi, Sid. Skidmore Dec 2017 #195

GREAT POST heaven05 Dec 2017 #24

As long as you remind people what the right and far right are doing. The far left is small potatoes UCmeNdc Dec 2017 #26

Stein isn't far left, she's a Russian troll masquerading as a progressive! lark Dec 2017 #28

When they unplug MFM008 Dec 2017 #29

massive k&r JHan Dec 2017 #31

I've often thought THEY should "get over it". Lil Missy Dec 2017 #32

Huge K&R, Dan. sheshe2 Dec 2017 #33

K&R Mountain Mule Dec 2017 #34

I can't believe you people are still harping about these assholes. Really? CrispyQ Dec 2017 #37

yes, and its so EASY to make a phone call, instead of 24/7 'fighting on 'social medias' Sunlei Dec 2017 #39

remember Steins "stunt" when she spray painted a bulldozer at XM pipeline protest? Republicans pushe Sunlei Dec 2017 #38

Indeed treestar Dec 2017 #42

Humans as a species tend to learn things the hard way Dem2 Dec 2017 #43

"Far Left??" I wonder if FDR and JFK would be dismissed as "Far Left" now?? LongTomH Dec 2017 #50

Strawman n/t emulatorloo Dec 2017 #52

Strawman? Facts, Young Progressives are winning and old conservatives aren't getting any younger. LongTomH Dec 2017 #56

That's not the strawman part. Your bullshit claim that DU'ers label JFK and FDR "far left" emulatorloo Dec 2017 #61

probably would be considered "far left" - SMDH Locrian Dec 2017 #54

Bernie fought hard to elect a Democratic president in 2016. This thread isn't about emulatorloo Dec 2017 #59

It's 'Democratic' president, not 'Democrat' LongTomH Dec 2017 #67

AFAIK I corrected the term prior to your post. Saw my error. Thanks though emulatorloo Dec 2017 #70

I've been harping on this for years... maddiemom Dec 2017 #125

Since you mention it, the far left did try to sabotage FDR as well. DanTex Dec 2017 #62

Strawman Hekate Dec 2017 #109

The current "far left" are sabotaging those goals, not helping achieve them. moriah Dec 2017 #189

Actually, the far left hated FDR. thucythucy Dec 2017 #291

Well, many party folks told them we didn't need them and they should eff off. aikoaiko Dec 2017 #51

Yes indeed! InAbLuEsTaTe Dec 2017 #260

Oh yes melman Dec 2017 #264

Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2017 #53

that and not giving a shit about OrwellwasRight Dec 2017 #127

90 million eligible voters didn't vote in 2016 while Jill Stein got 1.2 million votes. jalan48 Dec 2017 #57

Preach it! chwaliszewski Dec 2017 #105

Because blame and lack of introspection and analysis are soooo much easier! SMC22307 Dec 2017 #256

+100 PDittie Dec 2017 #268

Not really the second time it has happened. Jakes Progress Dec 2017 #58

And as we have since learned, BlueMTexpat Dec 2017 #279

Huh?.... whathehell Dec 2017 #60

Well said, and they arent going to admit THAT ismnotwasm Dec 2017 #63

Let's hope the Democratic Party doesn't adopt your projection as a formal strategy Fiendish Thingy Dec 2017 #66

LOL. "Projection". Nice one! DanTex Dec 2017 #68

Puhlease... marcopolo63 Dec 2017 #69

Did you really just refer Jill Stein as "our own"? LOL. DanTex Dec 2017 #72

A large segment of the Democratic Party base ismnotwasm Dec 2017 #82

Check that... marcopolo63 Dec 2017 #89

She falls on the horseshoe part. From her part of the spectrum, Trump is preferable DanTex Dec 2017 #123

The sad thing is, we're doing it to ourselves! LongTomH Dec 2017 #73

I agree LongTomH marcopolo63 Dec 2017 #92

This message was self-deleted by its author SharonKatz Dec 2017 #132

PREACH mindfulNJ Dec 2017 #76

Sigh. There is no 'far left' in the US n/t leftstreet Dec 2017 #81

Even if all of Jills DangerousUrNot Dec 2017 #85

Do you have a citation for that? Honeycombe8 Dec 2017 #90

I dont have a citation but DangerousUrNot Dec 2017 #107

I won't forget either. I agree with you. nt MikeydaDog Dec 2017 #86

There is no fucking "far-left" sabotage. alarimer Dec 2017 #88

+1 Gore1FL Dec 2017 #99

Even if there were, focusing on denouncing that doesn't help us gain votes. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #131

I was not nearly vocal enough last year, although I did point out they were spreading garbage from bettyellen Dec 2017 #101

Bravo. Dead on. nt Blue_true Dec 2017 #106

While I appreciate everything you are saying,the longer we stew in these juices the less of a chance Vinca Dec 2017 #110

Yep world wide wally Dec 2017 #112

The election was stolen. Your premise is bullshit. period. NRaleighLiberal Dec 2017 #115

What Does This Accomplish? Muneravenmn Dec 2017 #116

Welcome to DU! Enjoy your stay.... moriah Dec 2017 #139

Sabotage implies intent caraher Dec 2017 #118

Yes it does. DanTex Dec 2017 #134

+1 Hekate Dec 2017 #196

It implies intent, but can happen accidentally (or the intent be from outsider influence). moriah Dec 2017 #174

Until instant runoff is available at the Presidential level... moriah Dec 2017 #119

I'm a democratic communist agincourt Dec 2017 #120

I spent a lot of time on social media, when I wasn't canvassing(doorbelling-they're the same thing) Ken Burch Dec 2017 #133

LOL NurseJackie Dec 2017 #148

K&R musette_sf Dec 2017 #129

I'm not going to dispute your argument about the consequences. Ken Burch Dec 2017 #130

Jill Stein is not going to change. DanTex Dec 2017 #136

And all of us here agree with you...so what's the point? Ken Burch Dec 2017 #142

Again, it's the same point as criticizing Trump or the GOP. DanTex Dec 2017 #143

I don't give a damn about Jill Stein...personally, I think she's a "fucking moron". Ken Burch Dec 2017 #147

I'm not running a campaign here. DanTex Dec 2017 #249

This is so bogus. zentrum Dec 2017 #141

As annoying, opportunistic and disingenuous as Stein was liberalnarb Dec 2017 #145

I didn't know that Cornell West refused to vote for Hillary, Alice11111 Dec 2017 #151

Cornel West: Why I Endorse Green Partys Jill Stein Over Neoliberal Disaster Hillary Clinton ucrdem Dec 2017 #160

Thks for info. He just went to my shit list. Alice11111 Dec 2017 #163

Imagine if all those months of Clinton-bashing had gone toward voter rights or election reform. ucrdem Dec 2017 #263

So many ways we could have gotten to a different place, Alice11111 Dec 2017 #313

I lulz'd KG Dec 2017 #158

Post removed Post removed Dec 2017 #159

I WAS BERNIE ALL THE WAY BUT............... davidmp Dec 2017 #167

Welcome to DU! moriah Dec 2017 #201

We do have a schism Puzzledtraveller Dec 2017 #168

Rec'd earlier - commenting now JustAnotherGen Dec 2017 #173

Then we will continue to lose 4now Dec 2017 #177

K&R betsuni Dec 2017 #190

I call them "Faux-Left" McCamy Taylor Dec 2017 #191

K&R x 1000 brer cat Dec 2017 #192

Sarandon stands to profit handsomely from the tax bill Politicub Dec 2017 #199

Blame the far-left, Bernie supporters, socialists, etc etc redixdoragon Dec 2017 #200

"Far-left" shaming is nonsense... Dennis Donovan Dec 2017 #208

So? You are unwilling to admit that this election was stolen? And if it was stolen, how is it Ferrets are Cool Dec 2017 #211

Oh, it was stolen, alright. But there was more than one thief. sadiegirl Dec 2017 #213

Dividing Democrats BlueWI Dec 2017 #217

LOL "far left sabotage" Kimchijeon Dec 2017 #220

Thanks, couldn't say it better myself. I'm far more worried by oligarchs than leftists. diane in sf Dec 2017 #221

It's great that you are well-off enough to be able to DGAF. DanTex Dec 2017 #237

Far from it, lol Kimchijeon Dec 2017 #241

Echo chamber hate thread. philly_bob Dec 2017 #224

The far-left only supports the far-left. Progressive dog Dec 2017 #225

Any focus on the mythical "far left" misses the massive problem of guillaumeb Dec 2017 #228

Well informed and well said. Thank you. snowy owl Dec 2017 #231

Thank YOU. guillaumeb Dec 2017 #233

Agreed. We are where we are because of it. democratisphere Dec 2017 #229

Amazing... snowy owl Dec 2017 #230

+1 PDittie Dec 2017 #269

If you're waiting for everyone to shut up, get in line and quit being so goddamn disorderly... Baconator Dec 2017 #235

LOL. "Being disorderly" is a peculiar euphemism for intentionally putting Trump into office. DanTex Dec 2017 #236

Well said. :) snowy owl Dec 2017 #257

So you are trying to find someone to blame? YOHABLO Dec 2017 #238

I disagree jimlup Dec 2017 #239

I agree 100%. The last thing you or I and others should do in response to OPs like this KPN Dec 2017 #258

Bingo! jimlup Dec 2017 #266

Bravo seta1950 Dec 2017 #244

I don't recommend GaryCnf Dec 2017 #255

Bravo! KPN Dec 2017 #259

Over? I think not! Dyedinthewoolliberal Dec 2017 #265

I would not frame it as far vs. moderate left- many of us "far lefties" are also coalition builders Kashkakat v.2.0 Dec 2017 #271

Thank you! MountCleaners Dec 2017 #277

"simple-minded binary thinker vs. pragmatic" honest.abe Dec 2017 #284

The corporate Dems drink and eat from the same trough as the Republicans INdemo Dec 2017 #273

So I assume you defined Hillary as being "corporate" and refused to support her. honest.abe Dec 2017 #282

I would not call her a progressive INdemo Dec 2017 #292

In comparison to Trump she is a raging progressive. honest.abe Dec 2017 #296

Well no one on nothing compares to Donald Trump except ________________ fill in the blank INdemo Dec 2017 #299

Post removed Post removed Dec 2017 #285

I disagree. No the Bernie Supporters do no hate Elizabeth Warren INdemo Dec 2017 #293

Paste magazine is not "right wing". Author of the article is a self-avowed progressive emulatorloo Dec 2017 #297

That is exactly the great lie paraded by Trump supporters dressed up as "progressives". DanTex Dec 2017 #290

This is what the koch's and putin want to you think. Jakes Progress Dec 2017 #316

Totally agree and its troubling that many still are unwilling to admit their mistake. honest.abe Dec 2017 #280

Yeppers Eliot Rosewater Dec 2017 #322

that is the issue Dan, many of those that refused to vote for the Democratic nominee against still_one Dec 2017 #281

Thank you for posting that link to the Chomsky interview. Willie Pep Dec 2017 #295

exactly Willie still_one Dec 2017 #303

When in human history has insulting people won their vote? yurbud Dec 2017 #294

Do centrist Democrats take this approach with their big donors too? yurbud Dec 2017 #300

AFAIK you never recc'd up Putin propaganda or advocated Bernie or Bust or voting for Trump emulatorloo Dec 2017 #301

by offering more progressive candidates with progressive track records. yurbud Dec 2017 #302

Thanks. More progressive candidates is the right thing for the country emulatorloo Dec 2017 #304

it's not a conspiracy theory to look at politicians' track records and donors yurbud Dec 2017 #305

What part of Pizzagate and DNC killed Seth Rich are "politicians track records and donors". emulatorloo Dec 2017 #307

ah! I didn't think there were any Democrats who believed that. yurbud Dec 2017 #310

What would count as "Putin propaganda"? yurbud Dec 2017 #306

Anti-Democratic shit from Russia Today. Posted up and rec'd up. emulatorloo Dec 2017 #308

so Ed Schultz, Thom Hartmann, and Lee Camp are Russian dupes? yurbud Dec 2017 #309

Stop putting words in my mouth. I did not refer to Hartman, Camp, or Shultz nor did I have them in emulatorloo Dec 2017 #311

Hartmann was and is a fan of Sanders. snowy owl Dec 2017 #312

Sorry, I'm trying to figure out exactly what you mean. Those are most yurbud Dec 2017 #314

I have a theory on part of that Kentonio Dec 2017 #321

The only developed democracies with less of a "far left" than our tiny one are tilting hard right. LeftyMom Dec 2017 #315

+1 OrwellwasRight Dec 2017 #323

Not a chance of them admitting to it. JHan Dec 2017 #318