General Discussion

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)

232. there's no real debate here in this country, either.

Sun Jul 22, 2012, 04:41 AM

Jul 2012

I stay out of these arguments, generally, because I know well enough that at the end of the day, it's pointless.

Meaningful gun control legislation in the US at a Federal Level, is not going to happen. Ever. Every time we have one of these tragedies, the exact same 2 things happen: a flurry of argument, proposals for additional regulation in some form by one side, followed by a mass freak-the-fuck out by the other. That's one thing.

What's the other thing that invariably happens, after that? That's right, nothing.

Nothing happens.

Gun Control at a Federal level is a loser political issue in this country, for a lot of reasons. Are they good reasons, are they bad reasons, it doesn't really matter--- because the facts on the ground aren't going anywhere.

And I say this as someone who is, personally, anti-gun.

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I'm from the UK where debates about guns don't exist. [View all] sibelian Jul 2012 OP

erm you do know that their are still guns used in crimes and the knife culture is horrific loli phabay Jul 2012 #1

As the statistics are not even vaguely comparable... sibelian Jul 2012 #2

I think i saw somewhere you are more likely to be assaulted in the Uk than in the US loli phabay Jul 2012 #4

... sibelian Jul 2012 #5

Here's a source. Johnny Rico Jul 2012 #10

Ah, the Daily Mail. sibelian Jul 2012 #13

The subject was assault, not murder. Johnny Rico Jul 2012 #19

Errrr... sibelian Jul 2012 #22

Hence the (relevant) link. Johnny Rico Jul 2012 #26

err i think you will find it was my post and i said you are more likely to be assaulted in the uk loli phabay Jul 2012 #30

Which has nothing to do with my OP. sibelian Jul 2012 #44

Your home invasion rates are far higher than ours. Mimosa Jul 2012 #158

I'd rather get in a fist fight than a gunfight. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #24

id rather you decide to fistfight me whilst im holding a gun loli phabay Jul 2012 #29

"This is not about fighting fair its about winning and walking away." sibelian Jul 2012 #40

Not to the Hollywood cowboys here. Warren Stupidity Jul 2012 #124

Michael Reagan called it our american gun fettish. He's right. Your manhood's on the line. lindysalsagal Jul 2012 #131

I've never felt unsafe in an American city Scootaloo Jul 2012 #227

No, it's about murder. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #81

George Zimmerman, that you? Drunken Irishman Jul 2012 #92

if they attacked me and i felt in danger, we are talking about getting mugged or assaulted here loli phabay Jul 2012 #93

I agree there, however... Drunken Irishman Jul 2012 #94

oh yes it is the subject at hand! robinlynne Jul 2012 #202

The UK is the size of Wisconsin, and has a much smaller population than USA, too. MADem Jul 2012 #83

bravo good post and sentiment. loli phabay Jul 2012 #85

The population of the UK is more than ten times as great as Wisconsin.. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #121

This message was self-deleted by its author MADem Jul 2012 #125

I was using poor shorthand--I meant to say that it has a smaller population than USA. MADem Jul 2012 #128

High population density also leads to a lot more opportunities for interpersonal conflict.. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #176

UK is not a hundred rats in a shoebox, though. It's close, but not cramped. MADem Jul 2012 #179

And all dangerous wildlife have been hunted to local extinction obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #136

I used to live on a farm in UK. The fields were rented to tenants who kept sheep and cows. MADem Jul 2012 #159

It's very intetesting you did that! obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #163

But what does the size of the population matter when you're evaluating per capita stats? marmar Jul 2012 #145

You need fewer cops to patrol a smaller area. MADem Jul 2012 #157

It would be nice if people all over the world became less inclined to murder one another. Zalatix Jul 2012 #219

i can believe it, the ned culture is real bad in a lot of the urban areas loli phabay Jul 2012 #14

So, what do you think about the fact that fewer guns in the UK sibelian Jul 2012 #25

well might be less gun crime but were i live unlike the UK if you break into my home your meeting a loli phabay Jul 2012 #32

Then you don't understand what "odds" are. sibelian Jul 2012 #38

simple my odds over here of being attacked in my home and killed by a knife wielding ned loli phabay Jul 2012 #42

So you're actually just completely IGNORING my OP. sibelian Jul 2012 #47

now you get the point, he may be armed but he knows i may be too loli phabay Jul 2012 #49

So why doesn't he? sibelian Jul 2012 #52

less murders but more assaults, in the UK you can mug someone and be pretty sure they are unarmed loli phabay Jul 2012 #56

Yeah, but you can't be sure they won't fight back. sibelian Jul 2012 #65

its much preferable to trying to wrestle a stanley knife out of their hand or if there are more than loli phabay Jul 2012 #68

Wrsetling a stanley knife out of someone's hand sibelian Jul 2012 #72

the point is the round goes straight to the target, never seen anyone wrestle a bullet apart from loli phabay Jul 2012 #74

No, the point is it's easier to kill someone with a gun than a knife. sibelian Jul 2012 #84

Which is one of the many reasons a firearm is superior to a knife for self defense...yes? Johnny Rico Jul 2012 #76

im not sure they actually know what a firearm is, or how they work loli phabay Jul 2012 #78

... eShirl Jul 2012 #88

No, it's one of them many reasons why your murder rate is through the roof sibelian Jul 2012 #215

Firearms aren't superior to knives for self defense? Really? Johnny Rico Jul 2012 #217

Are you saying that I should have to fight fair? permatex Jul 2012 #161

Then arm them with what? a knife its been shown that people that carry knifes end up in A&E Sea-Dog Jul 2012 #112

Not if you're not home, secondvariety Jul 2012 #109

interesting stats from the bizzies themselves loli phabay Jul 2012 #20

I also read today Mojorabbit Jul 2012 #198

Oh, and you ignored every single point I made. sibelian Jul 2012 #3

it seemed to me that you were saying i cant have a gun and neither can the bad guys loli phabay Jul 2012 #6

"its not hard to get a gun in the UK if you pay the money and know the right people." - false. sibelian Jul 2012 #7

are you really saying that if you go to salford, or possil or many other estates that you cant get a loli phabay Jul 2012 #8

Again, the statistics speak for themselves sibelian Jul 2012 #9

and once again you really really believe that if you have the money and know somebody that you cant loli phabay Jul 2012 #11

"its not hard to get a gun" "if you have the money and know somebody" sibelian Jul 2012 #16

yes it is, you go to the pub give the guy money and get the gun loli phabay Jul 2012 #17

This disenegnuous tripe. sibelian Jul 2012 #21

you could if you knew were to go, hell you tell me were you live and i can tell you were to go loli phabay Jul 2012 #23

Who? sibelian Jul 2012 #28

nope they dont always, but not every criminal has a record so they do buy them legally as well loli phabay Jul 2012 #36

You can do a gun buy at a garage sale in the United States. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #31

yup i know that, was just using it as an example of how easy it is to buy a gun in the UK if you kno loli phabay Jul 2012 #37

Pretending it's easier than in the States sibelian Jul 2012 #41

and you thinking that its not easy to get a gun in the UK is just willful ignorance loli phabay Jul 2012 #45

Dude, just repeating something doesn't make it true. sibelian Jul 2012 #51

and you dont think the bad guys dont know were to get the guns from loli phabay Jul 2012 #54

So where are they all? sibelian Jul 2012 #63

i think its pretty easy to pull up the numbers from reported gun crimes, you can use google loli phabay Jul 2012 #67

Yeah, but that's got nothing to do with what I posted, has it? sibelian Jul 2012 #73

no the subject is you scolding americans and being high and mighty about the UK and guns loli phabay Jul 2012 #77

Right, so because you're oversensitive about your nationality... sibelian Jul 2012 #82

no i just know enough about americans to know that they dont need your help to solve their problems loli phabay Jul 2012 #87

Whoaaa, Mr. America...that moral high horse you're prancing around on Surya Gayatri Jul 2012 #117

"Scolding"? sibelian Jul 2012 #214

speak for yourself!!! this person is awesome!! wendylaroux Jul 2012 #255

Buying guns there is like buying drugs here. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #86

only if you are a total newbie, if your a criminal looking to buy a gun your pretty much dealing wit loli phabay Jul 2012 #89

Do you realize what you just did? Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #102

6up bad guys in the business would be more discerning who wants your sale to loli phabay Jul 2012 #114

I'll just let that post hang out there for all to see. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #192

You're not even funny. sibelian Jul 2012 #218

wtf you on about, still havent told me were in the uk your from so i can advise you how easy to get loli phabay Jul 2012 #220

+1,000 ! Surya Gayatri Jul 2012 #119

In most states, yes permatex Jul 2012 #167

UK or US statistics are often manipulated Mimosa Jul 2012 #162

I think you are being very naive obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #141

Correct permatex Jul 2012 #170

Right -- I suspect it's also possible to buy illegal drugs in the UK obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #177

+10000000000 permatex Jul 2012 #180

The homicide rate in Japan is the lowest in the world. cthulu2016 Jul 2012 #181

thats true permatex Jul 2012 #182

I think his point is that you can get guns if you know who to get them from obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #185

bingo if you belong or have contacts with a fleeto (gang) then its relatively easy loli phabay Jul 2012 #223

got any data on 'how relatively easy it is'? Sea-Dog Jul 2012 #191

How easy is it to buy illegal drugs? obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #264

still no data to back up what your saying. Sea-Dog Jul 2012 #271

That's nice. whathehell Jul 2012 #12

You are fully aware of the point I was making. sibelian Jul 2012 #15

What I truly am NOT aware of is why you think whathehell Jul 2012 #61

Stick your fingers in your ears, then. sibelian Jul 2012 #221

rofl way to go reinforcing his point. loli phabay Jul 2012 #224

Stick yours in your mouth, then whathehell Jul 2012 #245

That's mighty condescending of you chap DainBramaged Jul 2012 #252

Your concern is duly noted, "chap" whathehell Jul 2012 #259

Thanks for your reply DainBramaged Jul 2012 #260

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! whathehell Jul 2012 #262

+1 nt MADem Jul 2012 #90

Let me get this straight. Zoeisright Jul 2012 #193

You've got a long way to go, it seems whathehell Jul 2012 #199

Don't even bother to pretend that your oversensitivity is my problem. sibelian Jul 2012 #222

Don't' even bother to pretend that your overweening arrogance is not the problem whathehell Jul 2012 #247

overweening DainBramaged Jul 2012 #253

I do hope you're not ascribing whathehell Jul 2012 #258

There are many reasons why people in America keep guns. LuvNewcastle Jul 2012 #18

Compensation for having small dicks being one of them. dipsydoodle Jul 2012 #27

There is some of that, of course. LuvNewcastle Jul 2012 #50

You mean there's no small dicks in the UK? whathehell Jul 2012 #75

guffaws, of course there is but its supplemented by supporting man utd instead of guns loli phabay Jul 2012 #79

Actually Man Utd fans probably have small dicks :) Lars77 Jul 2012 #110

And that is a good thing, bro..."guffaws" and all. whathehell Jul 2012 #123

There are indeed as many puny dicks in the UK Surya Gayatri Jul 2012 #118

LOL... whathehell Jul 2012 #122

"They (do) compensate with SOMETHING", as do Surya Gayatri Jul 2012 #130

Thank you for whathehell Jul 2012 #189

actually they do instead of guns its knifes and has been for decades loli phabay Jul 2012 #209

Many young British males are indeed members of the "white weapon" cult... Surya Gayatri Jul 2012 #239

Uh... beevul Jul 2012 #243

Is this a serious question? Impossible to tell--it sounds as if you're just being provocative... Surya Gayatri Jul 2012 #246

Nomenclature. beevul Jul 2012 #248

I'm referring to the same kind of assault weapons used by Surya Gayatri Jul 2012 #249

Thats what I thought. beevul Jul 2012 #269

+1 bazillion! Shadowflash Jul 2012 #103

I suppose that virtual elimination of habeas corpus is not "overreaching" eridani Jul 2012 #33

Yes it is. LuvNewcastle Jul 2012 #55

Remember the color-coded terrorist alerts? eridani Jul 2012 #60

I think our media is our biggest problem. LuvNewcastle Jul 2012 #70

I think getting rid of all the guns would be a start. sibelian Jul 2012 #34

what about knives, i would think that would be of a bigger concern in the UK loli phabay Jul 2012 #39

are you embarasssed or something? sibelian Jul 2012 #53

yes im embarressed for you, its like an american coming onto a UK site and trying to be all haughty loli phabay Jul 2012 #62

I *am* concerned about knife crime. sibelian Jul 2012 #71

+1...n/t whathehell Jul 2012 #208

Murder rate 25% of ours. It seems knives not such a huge problem. Warren Stupidity Jul 2012 #127

dude forget about the murder rate, if you live in the UK then knives are a concern loli phabay Jul 2012 #216

Didn't you know that whole "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave" thing was propaganda? Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #43

How, exactly, would you propose that this be done? Johnny Rico Jul 2012 #46

The first thing necessary to get it done sibelian Jul 2012 #59

Ok...how do you propose getting the majority of US gun owners to agree that it "has to be done"? Johnny Rico Jul 2012 #66

By explaining to them repeatedly that their lives are at greater risk than necessary. sibelian Jul 2012 #80

lol i dont think thats a plan that will work... loli phabay Jul 2012 #91

The anti-gun side has been doing that for decades, and the pro-gun side is more entrenched Johnny Rico Jul 2012 #144

Then it has to get stronger. sibelian Jul 2012 #225

Well, yes, it would have to get stronger to more effective by definition. Johnny Rico Jul 2012 #228

Then the fight has to be started again. n/t sibelian Jul 2012 #230

okay go ahead and start it, but as the other poster said you are not going to change people loli phabay Jul 2012 #233

Get back with me in a couple of decades and let me know how it's going. Johnny Rico Jul 2012 #234

Apparently you don't know that much about our BoR permatex Jul 2012 #174

Yes, because no one has ever truly "explained" that to us before. whathehell Jul 2012 #210

Go and read what I psoted at the beginning again. sibelian Jul 2012 #229

You go and read what I posted at the beginning whathehell Jul 2012 #251

It would be virtually impossible to confiscate all the guns in America. LuvNewcastle Jul 2012 #64

Absolutely right. Johnny Rico Jul 2012 #69

So you're just giving up? sibelian Jul 2012 #213

There are many reasons why people in America keep guns. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2012 #35

Oh for God's sake, that is the dumbest argument ever. Zoeisright Jul 2012 #194

"of an out-of-control government which has all the guns in its possession" DainBramaged Jul 2012 #257

"Why would I need a gun to defend myself in a nation that doesn't really have any guns"? whathehell Jul 2012 #48

And what is with YOU thucythucy Jul 2012 #148

Plus one billion. Zoeisright Jul 2012 #195

You can ask whathehell Jul 2012 #203

Whatever. The level of hostility in reply thucythucy Jul 2012 #250

Sorry, but again, I disagree with you and whathehell Jul 2012 #256

I checked it out, thucythucy Jul 2012 #261

I checked it out too whathehell Jul 2012 #263

Lessons learned from 1776 pintobean Jul 2012 #57

The stats do speak for themselves Prophet 451 Jul 2012 #58

I wonder if the definitions of 'violent crime' are the same, though muriel_volestrangler Jul 2012 #95

Fair point Prophet 451 Jul 2012 #101

Indeed; in the UK, you'd get a better idea of prevelance with the British Crime Survey muriel_volestrangler Jul 2012 #116

I remember a shouting match between 2 chaps arthritisR_US Jul 2012 #197

^ Agree ^ Mimosa Jul 2012 #169

What I've heard is Canada has essentially the same gun laws as the US, and much, much less violence tclambert Jul 2012 #96

I think a lot of this is cultural. mwooldri Jul 2012 #156

Our basic legal infrastructure's a lot more recent, too Posteritatis Jul 2012 #204

Canada's gun laws are very different from the US. DanTex Jul 2012 #160

No, Canada does not have the same gun laws as the U.S. Zoeisright Jul 2012 #196

No one needs a gun. Brewinblue Jul 2012 #97

This message was self-deleted by its author bupkus Jul 2012 #105

Every woman living alone needs a gun. Honeycombe8 Jul 2012 #106

How am I expected to find a gun and load it and aim it if an assailant is already inside my house? lindysalsagal Jul 2012 #133

My gun is loaded and is an easy to grab place. Yes, he could grab it and use it against you, but Honeycombe8 Jul 2012 #140

I'm for regulation, but understand the need for guns Patiod Jul 2012 #173

Thanks for understanding my position. Which is that a gun is just one of many tools. Honeycombe8 Jul 2012 #206

Any place can become dangerous Mimosa Jul 2012 #171

What you say is true, Mimosa. A gun is just one of many things to use. Honeycombe8 Jul 2012 #207

Besides the fact that you are flat wrong clffrdjk Jul 2012 #151

So how will you disarm the American population? permatex Jul 2012 #175

By starting. sibelian Jul 2012 #241

This really is a comparison of apples and orangutans.... The Doctor. Jul 2012 #98

The US also has more of a criminal problem than the UK. Lots of murders, serial killers, home Honeycombe8 Jul 2012 #111

This message was self-deleted by its author bupkus Jul 2012 #99

+1 alcibiades_mystery Jul 2012 #172

Ever notice Brewinblue Jul 2012 #100

This message was self-deleted by its author bupkus Jul 2012 #107

That's nonsense. The Doctor. Jul 2012 #129

You have gained lots of knowledge in 11 days. NCTraveler Jul 2012 #139

The U.S. is different from the UK. Honeycombe8 Jul 2012 #104

Guns are a deeply embedded part of American culture, in Europe they are not. Lars77 Jul 2012 #108

I suspect current American interest in guns for self-defense has less to do with the "frontier" HereSince1628 Jul 2012 #120

Well we are about 800 years apart on that point Lars77 Jul 2012 #187

I would say two reasons obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #188

bingo i am 40 minutes at least from the deputies arriving unless i get luckey loli phabay Jul 2012 #211

I'm confident most of America's guns are where most of America's people are-urban and suburban areas HereSince1628 Jul 2012 #212

I have been stalked by coyotes and feral boars obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #265

Americans are completely irrational about their precious guns... polichick Jul 2012 #113

Agreed. n/t lindysalsagal Jul 2012 #134

D'accord. marmar Jul 2012 #146

Thank you for pointing this out. yellerpup Jul 2012 #115

Follow the money malaise Jul 2012 #126

+1,000 ! Surya Gayatri Jul 2012 #132

The dirty little secret they don't want to discuss.... lindysalsagal Jul 2012 #135

+1 redqueen Jul 2012 #166

In some areas of the country guns are necessary Marrah_G Jul 2012 #137

And if you're a farmer, MadHound Jul 2012 #138

Or living in very rural areas with bears and mountain lions etc Marrah_G Jul 2012 #142

If the UK ever had 60 M guns, how would you propose to get rid of them? Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #143

By beginning. sibelian Jul 2012 #231

How well do you think that would work? beevul Jul 2012 #244

Maybe I'm just being thick, but that doesn't strike me as an answer. Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #270

Heavy Sigh DustyJoe Jul 2012 #147

Thank you for an articulate and intelligent post, thucythucy Jul 2012 #149

Add me to that list ! ohgeewhiz Jul 2012 #150

Many thanks for your polite response! sibelian Jul 2012 #237

And yet the UK has had many, many dozens of bomb attacks. Way more than here. Bluenorthwest Jul 2012 #152

That actually is a good point obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #155

Criminals aren't doing bombings Sea-Dog Jul 2012 #190

Facts mitigating against seriously remedying America's gun problem. DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2012 #153

What happens if a rabid raccoon comes into your yard? obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #154

There are no raccoons in Britain, or feral pigs, or wolves, or coyotes Spider Jerusalem Jul 2012 #226

Thank you for proving my point! obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #266

This message was self-deleted by its author Tuesday Afternoon Jul 2012 #164

Excellent post. DanTex Jul 2012 #165

LUCKY You; Here in the U.S. Iggy Jul 2012 #168

Pepper spray and many legitimate martial arts weapons are also illegal in the UK obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #178

Some of the bans on non-lethal devices are possilby slightly authoritarian, I agree sibelian Jul 2012 #240

They've been successful in protecting people from defending themselves Dash87 Jul 2012 #183

I don't get the pepper spray thing at all obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #186

THANK YOU for this logic flamingdem Jul 2012 #184

Have you been watching your own news? tawadi Jul 2012 #200

Well, that's certainly an interesting point. sibelian Jul 2012 #242

Great Britain does not have a second amendment Rosa Luxemburg Jul 2012 #201

There's also an incredible level of paranoia in the US... AntiFascist Jul 2012 #205

there's no real debate here in this country, either. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #232

i am kinda done with these arguments as well, its not going to change any minds and just seems like loli phabay Jul 2012 #235

Now THAT is an important argument. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #236

Male obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #268

What happened in Aurora has been described as horrific and savage rudycantfail Jul 2012 #238

you know what else doesn't exist in the UK? BOG PERSON Jul 2012 #254

The USA and Americans are fucking crazy and violent. Arugula Latte Jul 2012 #267