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Manifest Destiny

(139 posts)

82. Those who don't learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them.

Reply to GGJohn (Reply #49)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 10:26 AM

Feb 2015

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Venezuela's 'socialist paradise' turns into a nightmare: Medical shortages claim lives as oil price [View all] 7962 Feb 2015 OP

If oil prices are to blame, isn't capitalism also to blame? arcane1 Feb 2015 #1

Because of all the life threatening medical shortages in capitalist countries? Bucky Feb 2015 #3

And relying on f-ing petroleum can't help matters either. arcane1 Feb 2015 #5

Fine, they should diversify more. Ken Burch Feb 2015 #60

"You just hate it that they don't defer to the U.S." Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2015 #159

Actually the problem is in what Economists call the "Dutch Disease". happyslug Feb 2015 #39

you must have missed the drug shortages in the US system, going on since before 2009, and partly ND-Dem Feb 2015 #55

No... building your economy around one commodity is STOOPID. Adrahil Feb 2015 #9

Exactly. They 'put all their eggs in one basket', then the basket got dropped. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #27

Quite correct. Adrahil Feb 2015 #67

The problem is when you have such an export, it pushes out every other exports happyslug Feb 2015 #40

I mostly agree... Adrahil Feb 2015 #65

The problem is, this problem of non-development of the rest of the economy is decades old happyslug Feb 2015 #141

Good Post. n/t Adrahil Feb 2015 #143

Introducing a little history into another Socialism bashing thread is going to get noticed. Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #144

The problem is NOT Socialism or even Capitalism, but oil and its effect on the non-oil economy. happyslug Feb 2015 #149

Why do you assume that foreign companies will build factories in VZ? hack89 Feb 2015 #147

You be surprised what can be made locally with local material happyslug Feb 2015 #148

VZ has not have the regulatory infrastructure in place to attract massive foreign investment hack89 Feb 2015 #150

Well said. christx30 Feb 2015 #151

First Global Companies go where they can make profits.... happyslug Feb 2015 #152

I guess it will depend on who is in charge when the present crisis is over hack89 Feb 2015 #153

Maybe. Corporatism can get in on it too. AtheistCrusader Feb 2015 #12

You mentioned "sustainability." I think that they used to look at sustainability and long term Dustlawyer Feb 2015 #19

I think it's pretty easy, really.... Adrahil Feb 2015 #66

Only if it also gets the credit for propping up their economy when prices were high. Warren DeMontague Feb 2015 #47

Maduro phanbois in 3-2-1... Archae Feb 2015 #2

I'm sure there's some school somewhere that existed in the 1950's that taught people how to protest Calista241 Feb 2015 #24

Wrong-It's because none of Maduro's opponents in Venezuela act out of progressive intent. Ken Burch Feb 2015 #61

Umm, did you hear about former Minister Giordani recently saying that they're in trouble? Marksman_91 Feb 2015 #155

and turning the country back over to neoliberal sociopaths would help people like her how? yurbud Feb 2015 #4

For starters the stores would be full of such luxury items as COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #6

yep, like the rest of latin america whether right, left, or center. n/t Bacchus4.0 Feb 2015 #7

Shhh. You're waking them from their delusion. nt COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #8

Dishwashing liquid! TOOTHPASTE~!!! Baby food~! Chickens!! Oh, those high living snoots! nt MADem Feb 2015 #10

Bunch of goddamn oligarch capitalistic pig wannabe's. Imagine. COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #21

Yeah, expecting to strut into a grocer or pharmacy and find things like baby diapers MADem Feb 2015 #57

And would a taxi drivers wife be able to afford medical care? yurbud Feb 2015 #11

Sure why not? Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Peru, Uruguay, and ostensibly Venezuela Bacchus4.0 Feb 2015 #14

That gave me a good laugh! Thanks nt 7962 Feb 2015 #20

So...if they go back to a strict right wing Koch Brother friendly government... LiberalLovinLug Feb 2015 #41

"wouldn't that give credence to the theory that these items have been purposely squeezed out?" EX500rider Feb 2015 #50

No, it would give credence to there being an exchange rate COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #51

Most of Latin America used to be a Capitalist's paradise, milk and honey flowed freely, remember? Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #104

Milk and honey are very common in Latin America with the exception of Venezuela n/t Bacchus4.0 Feb 2015 #135

It doesn't have to be either/or Adrahil Feb 2015 #13

What puts the lie to all this bull shit sulphurdunn Feb 2015 #15

the US exports billions of dollars of agriculture and food to Venezuela each year n/t Bacchus4.0 Feb 2015 #16

Wasn't like they had a natural disaster.. EX500rider Feb 2015 #18

Venezuela's debt to GDP ratio was higher before Chavez than it is today. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #56

A lot of folks here will tell you our debt doesnt matter. 7962 Feb 2015 #62

i don't know that it does; just saying, vz's was was worse pre-chacez & ours is worse than theirs. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #98

Yep. It's all our fault. It's all a US/CIA/Colombian/ COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #22

Why not just keep it simple, and call it what it is: sulphurdunn Feb 2015 #25

And it didn't work. Now what? Tarheel_Dem Feb 2015 #29

That's easy, sulphurdunn Feb 2015 #34

"back into the barrios"? The whole country has become a barrio! 7962 Feb 2015 #44

Let's keep it simple and call it what it is: COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #52

I'll give the Chavistas this: Adrahil Feb 2015 #77

you forgot the Jews!! 7962 Feb 2015 #32

Be careful! sulphurdunn Feb 2015 #35

Just going along with the previous post. Many here blame the Jews for anything that goes wrong. 7962 Feb 2015 #45

Yep. Chavez liked his anti-semitism, too. nt COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #53

It was a nightmare too Manifest Destiny Feb 2015 #17

You are (at least I assume) aware that Venezuela COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #23

When did that happen in Venezuela? Link please? Tarheel_Dem Feb 2015 #28

US-Venezuela Patron-Client Relations 1960’s -1998 Manifest Destiny Feb 2015 #30

WTF does any of that have to do with Maduro's mismanagement of a government controlled resource? Tarheel_Dem Feb 2015 #31

You may want to reread your question Manifest Destiny Feb 2015 #36

Why was it necessary to post a comment that has nothing GGJohn Feb 2015 #37

It has to do with context and the past..... Manifest Destiny Feb 2015 #48

But that's not what's happening now is it. GGJohn Feb 2015 #49

Those who don't learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them. Manifest Destiny Feb 2015 #82

That would apply to the Maduro govt continuing the failed GGJohn Feb 2015 #88

And capitalism American style is a huge disaster and failure... NoJusticeNoPeace Feb 2015 #26

Yet we all can still easily use real toilet paper to wipe ourselves!! 7962 Feb 2015 #33

And our hospitals aren't suffering from scarcity of medicine. eom. GGJohn Feb 2015 #38

No, but plenty of poor and working class people are daleo Feb 2015 #42

And this has what to do with Venezuela? GGJohn Feb 2015 #43

Nothing! You think that matters? nt 7962 Feb 2015 #46

It doesn't matter how bad things are in Venezuela. christx30 Feb 2015 #58

Your concern for the people of Venezuela is noted. Manifest Destiny Feb 2015 #83

The US is crushing them with oil price manipulation? GGJohn Feb 2015 #86

The oil price manipulation began the day after John Kerry left Riyadh. Manifest Destiny Feb 2015 #96

Sorry, but Ven. economy was tanking long before any GGJohn Feb 2015 #100

I admit I have a different view opposite to you Manifest Destiny Feb 2015 #140

When you lead off with "our hospitals" daleo Feb 2015 #160

not quite true, actually. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #54

A link from a Thatcherite rag that has cheered on every right-wing coup in Latin American history Ken Burch Feb 2015 #59

Yeah, I'm sure the stories are all false. Thats why everyone else is reporting the same thing 7962 Feb 2015 #63

Actually, some of the very best DUers cite that "rag" as a source. Nye Bevan Feb 2015 #68

That was once. Three years ago. I've learned since then. n/t. Ken Burch Feb 2015 #112

The Op-eds everywhere cheering for a return to crony capitalism in Venezuela are penned by pathetic Wall Street shills. Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #106

Have you been down there to give Maduro some advice? snooper2 Feb 2015 #110

I am already Minister of Propaganda so why would I accept a demotion, silly? Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #111

Nationalize your oil and TPTB will undermine you at every turn. Scuba Feb 2015 #64

And the US will infect your president with cancer (according to Maduro): Nye Bevan Feb 2015 #69

That makes no sense. The TPTB gets all the VZ oil they want at they price they set. hack89 Feb 2015 #70

More like steal from people, christx30 Feb 2015 #72

I can only assume you mean stealing from the owners of the oil companies ... Scuba Feb 2015 #73

But when you lack the capital and expertise to manage and expand your oil industry hack89 Feb 2015 #74

When you have oil, you have access to capital. How could you miss that? Scuba Feb 2015 #76

But not enough - why do you think their oil production has been declining for a decade?nt hack89 Feb 2015 #80

If they don't have access to enough capital, it's because the banking .... Scuba Feb 2015 #84

Banks and companies don't invest in countries that break contracts and can't be trusted hack89 Feb 2015 #87

Banks do business with drug and arms dealers and anyone else who can pay ... Scuba Feb 2015 #89

It makes them money. VZ does not. hack89 Feb 2015 #93

I did notice that you think "oil industry experts" should be put in charge. Not surprising. Scuba Feb 2015 #94

Doesn't VZ have oil industry experts that can run an oil company? hack89 Feb 2015 #99

Can you admit that TPTB might not look favorably on any nation that nationalizes their oil? Scuba Feb 2015 #102

VZ nationalized their oil industry 43 years ago. hack89 Feb 2015 #105

TPTB understand the long game. Chavez held them off for a while, dramatically improving ... Scuba Feb 2015 #107

But it was Chavez that drove VZ's oil industry into the ground hack89 Feb 2015 #113

The asset remains intact, not given to foreign investors at discount prices. Scuba Feb 2015 #119

VZ is a member of the largest capitalist cartel in the world hack89 Feb 2015 #121

No, Venezuela disengaged from TPTB when they nationalized their oil. Scuba Feb 2015 #122

What about the 30 years after nationalization before Chavez came along? hack89 Feb 2015 #124

Please return the goalpost to its original position. Scuba Feb 2015 #129

You want to put the blame solely on the mythical TPTB hack89 Feb 2015 #131

Please provide evidence that the meddling is a new phenomenum. Scuba Feb 2015 #132

Spoken like a true conspiracy theorist: "Prove that I am wrong." hack89 Feb 2015 #133

No, it was you who implied that there was no meddling for 4 decades. And I have provided ... Scuba Feb 2015 #136

No - I said that the TPTB didn't give a rats ass about VZ nationalizing their oil industry in 1972 hack89 Feb 2015 #138

Your conclusion that meddling in 2006 means that TPTB ignored nationalization for 30 years ... Scuba Feb 2015 #139

So lets see your hard evidence of ongoing meddling hack89 Feb 2015 #146

Venezuela gives oil to other countries who turn around and sell it for a profit Bacchus4.0 Feb 2015 #134

Would you invest in Venezuela, christx30 Feb 2015 #126

Venezuela’s Oil Industry Exodus Slowing Crude Production hack89 Feb 2015 #81

I'm talking about the drilling equipment christx30 Feb 2015 #79

Hmmm. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #92

In VZ you lose money when you sell that TV hack89 Feb 2015 #101

Then I'd think there would be an opportunity to take those bolivars and Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #108

Export what? 96% of their exports is oil hack89 Feb 2015 #116

Which is why I suggested you'd have to invest in setting up production Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #117

Makes you wonder why the government didn't do this a long time ago. hack89 Feb 2015 #118

Wel, you have to admit, it seemed like a pretty safe bet. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #120

Look at the long lines christx30 Feb 2015 #103

Waitasec, I was replying to something YOU said. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #109

Those lines aren't high demand. christx30 Feb 2015 #114

And the airlines and every other foreign company 7962 Feb 2015 #154

Chavez was and Maduro is not much different from any other political huckster. MohRokTah Feb 2015 #71

It is never to late to diversify, only takes 2-4 months for a domestic crop harvest! Sunlei Feb 2015 #75

Except Venezuela's oil is a very low quality grade COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #78

they have quality crude aswell as gas and tarsands. one of the largest reserves in the world. Sunlei Feb 2015 #90

I don't see anything that says that their crude is COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #91

Their crude oil has to be shipped to the US for refining because GGJohn Feb 2015 #95

yes, they import gasoline from the US because they lack refining capacity Bacchus4.0 Feb 2015 #97

their citizens have a benefit of gasoline about 10 cents a gallon. so cost of refining must be r Sunlei Feb 2015 #115

One of the reasons their economy is swirling the COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #123

perhaps they can make a deal for a refinery with another country. It's a beautiful country, Sunlei Feb 2015 #128

You know, before Chavez that might have been a possibility. COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #137

Venezuela National Guard beating people in line waiting for food Bacchus4.0 Feb 2015 #85

At least they're not shooting them - yet. nt COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #125

It's said that in outside Feb 2015 #127

It won't be in the US. More likely Nicaragua or Bolivia. n/t Bacchus4.0 Feb 2015 #130

Yeah, that never happens when crony capitalists are in charge......funny stuff. Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #142

Clearly, this is Joe Biden's fault. I believe I heard Maduro say so the other day. hughee99 Feb 2015 #145

at least part of the problem is sabbat hunter Feb 2015 #156

It's the general problem that stems from cult of personality Marksman_91 Feb 2015 #157

It's why I get nervous christx30 Feb 2015 #161

It is the only way he can avoid a coup from the left. nt hack89 Feb 2015 #158