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happyslug

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149. The problem is NOT Socialism or even Capitalism, but oil and its effect on the non-oil economy.

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 02:52 PM

Feb 2015

Chavez tried to work around it, but I do not believe he ever understood what the problem was. Many of his supporters and opponents clearly do not. Both groups see oil as a boom NOT a curse. The problem with exporting an energy producing commodity is how it affects the rest of the economy. Those bad effects have to be addressed and they have not been for the first choice is to subsidize local industry not protect them. At the same time there is a tendency to protect your friends from the bad effects of oil exportation instead of saying that you will protect ALL of the non-oil economy by spending the money on projects that will produce long term good (dams, roads, etc). There is also a tendency to go for the cheapest price possible, even if that means imports that kill off the non-oil economy.

In simple terms, Venezuela has to do things many people dislike and that includes people on the left AND the right. Socialists AND Capitalists will hate what is needed for both are addicted to the profits from oil production. Both have to get off that addiction but money is something a lot of people have problems turning away from, and in many ways turning away from that easy money is want is needed.

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Venezuela's 'socialist paradise' turns into a nightmare: Medical shortages claim lives as oil price [View all] 7962 Feb 2015 OP

If oil prices are to blame, isn't capitalism also to blame? arcane1 Feb 2015 #1

Because of all the life threatening medical shortages in capitalist countries? Bucky Feb 2015 #3

And relying on f-ing petroleum can't help matters either. arcane1 Feb 2015 #5

Fine, they should diversify more. Ken Burch Feb 2015 #60

"You just hate it that they don't defer to the U.S." Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2015 #159

Actually the problem is in what Economists call the "Dutch Disease". happyslug Feb 2015 #39

you must have missed the drug shortages in the US system, going on since before 2009, and partly ND-Dem Feb 2015 #55

No... building your economy around one commodity is STOOPID. Adrahil Feb 2015 #9

Exactly. They 'put all their eggs in one basket', then the basket got dropped. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #27

Quite correct. Adrahil Feb 2015 #67

The problem is when you have such an export, it pushes out every other exports happyslug Feb 2015 #40

I mostly agree... Adrahil Feb 2015 #65

The problem is, this problem of non-development of the rest of the economy is decades old happyslug Feb 2015 #141

Good Post. n/t Adrahil Feb 2015 #143

Introducing a little history into another Socialism bashing thread is going to get noticed. Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #144

The problem is NOT Socialism or even Capitalism, but oil and its effect on the non-oil economy. happyslug Feb 2015 #149

Why do you assume that foreign companies will build factories in VZ? hack89 Feb 2015 #147

You be surprised what can be made locally with local material happyslug Feb 2015 #148

VZ has not have the regulatory infrastructure in place to attract massive foreign investment hack89 Feb 2015 #150

Well said. christx30 Feb 2015 #151

First Global Companies go where they can make profits.... happyslug Feb 2015 #152

I guess it will depend on who is in charge when the present crisis is over hack89 Feb 2015 #153

Maybe. Corporatism can get in on it too. AtheistCrusader Feb 2015 #12

You mentioned "sustainability." I think that they used to look at sustainability and long term Dustlawyer Feb 2015 #19

I think it's pretty easy, really.... Adrahil Feb 2015 #66

Only if it also gets the credit for propping up their economy when prices were high. Warren DeMontague Feb 2015 #47

Maduro phanbois in 3-2-1... Archae Feb 2015 #2

I'm sure there's some school somewhere that existed in the 1950's that taught people how to protest Calista241 Feb 2015 #24

Wrong-It's because none of Maduro's opponents in Venezuela act out of progressive intent. Ken Burch Feb 2015 #61

Umm, did you hear about former Minister Giordani recently saying that they're in trouble? Marksman_91 Feb 2015 #155

and turning the country back over to neoliberal sociopaths would help people like her how? yurbud Feb 2015 #4

For starters the stores would be full of such luxury items as COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #6

yep, like the rest of latin america whether right, left, or center. n/t Bacchus4.0 Feb 2015 #7

Shhh. You're waking them from their delusion. nt COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #8

Dishwashing liquid! TOOTHPASTE~!!! Baby food~! Chickens!! Oh, those high living snoots! nt MADem Feb 2015 #10

Bunch of goddamn oligarch capitalistic pig wannabe's. Imagine. COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #21

Yeah, expecting to strut into a grocer or pharmacy and find things like baby diapers MADem Feb 2015 #57

And would a taxi drivers wife be able to afford medical care? yurbud Feb 2015 #11

Sure why not? Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Peru, Uruguay, and ostensibly Venezuela Bacchus4.0 Feb 2015 #14

That gave me a good laugh! Thanks nt 7962 Feb 2015 #20

So...if they go back to a strict right wing Koch Brother friendly government... LiberalLovinLug Feb 2015 #41

"wouldn't that give credence to the theory that these items have been purposely squeezed out?" EX500rider Feb 2015 #50

No, it would give credence to there being an exchange rate COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #51

Most of Latin America used to be a Capitalist's paradise, milk and honey flowed freely, remember? Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #104

Milk and honey are very common in Latin America with the exception of Venezuela n/t Bacchus4.0 Feb 2015 #135

It doesn't have to be either/or Adrahil Feb 2015 #13

What puts the lie to all this bull shit sulphurdunn Feb 2015 #15

the US exports billions of dollars of agriculture and food to Venezuela each year n/t Bacchus4.0 Feb 2015 #16

Wasn't like they had a natural disaster.. EX500rider Feb 2015 #18

Venezuela's debt to GDP ratio was higher before Chavez than it is today. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #56

A lot of folks here will tell you our debt doesnt matter. 7962 Feb 2015 #62

i don't know that it does; just saying, vz's was was worse pre-chacez & ours is worse than theirs. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #98

Yep. It's all our fault. It's all a US/CIA/Colombian/ COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #22

Why not just keep it simple, and call it what it is: sulphurdunn Feb 2015 #25

And it didn't work. Now what? Tarheel_Dem Feb 2015 #29

That's easy, sulphurdunn Feb 2015 #34

"back into the barrios"? The whole country has become a barrio! 7962 Feb 2015 #44

Let's keep it simple and call it what it is: COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #52

I'll give the Chavistas this: Adrahil Feb 2015 #77

you forgot the Jews!! 7962 Feb 2015 #32

Be careful! sulphurdunn Feb 2015 #35

Just going along with the previous post. Many here blame the Jews for anything that goes wrong. 7962 Feb 2015 #45

Yep. Chavez liked his anti-semitism, too. nt COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #53

It was a nightmare too Manifest Destiny Feb 2015 #17

You are (at least I assume) aware that Venezuela COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #23

When did that happen in Venezuela? Link please? Tarheel_Dem Feb 2015 #28

US-Venezuela Patron-Client Relations 1960�s -1998 Manifest Destiny Feb 2015 #30

WTF does any of that have to do with Maduro's mismanagement of a government controlled resource? Tarheel_Dem Feb 2015 #31

You may want to reread your question Manifest Destiny Feb 2015 #36

Why was it necessary to post a comment that has nothing GGJohn Feb 2015 #37

It has to do with context and the past..... Manifest Destiny Feb 2015 #48

But that's not what's happening now is it. GGJohn Feb 2015 #49

Those who don't learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them. Manifest Destiny Feb 2015 #82

That would apply to the Maduro govt continuing the failed GGJohn Feb 2015 #88

And capitalism American style is a huge disaster and failure... NoJusticeNoPeace Feb 2015 #26

Yet we all can still easily use real toilet paper to wipe ourselves!! 7962 Feb 2015 #33

And our hospitals aren't suffering from scarcity of medicine. eom. GGJohn Feb 2015 #38

No, but plenty of poor and working class people are daleo Feb 2015 #42

And this has what to do with Venezuela? GGJohn Feb 2015 #43

Nothing! You think that matters? nt 7962 Feb 2015 #46

It doesn't matter how bad things are in Venezuela. christx30 Feb 2015 #58

Your concern for the people of Venezuela is noted. Manifest Destiny Feb 2015 #83

The US is crushing them with oil price manipulation? GGJohn Feb 2015 #86

The oil price manipulation began the day after John Kerry left Riyadh. Manifest Destiny Feb 2015 #96

Sorry, but Ven. economy was tanking long before any GGJohn Feb 2015 #100

I admit I have a different view opposite to you Manifest Destiny Feb 2015 #140

When you lead off with "our hospitals" daleo Feb 2015 #160

not quite true, actually. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #54

A link from a Thatcherite rag that has cheered on every right-wing coup in Latin American history Ken Burch Feb 2015 #59

Yeah, I'm sure the stories are all false. Thats why everyone else is reporting the same thing 7962 Feb 2015 #63

Actually, some of the very best DUers cite that "rag" as a source. Nye Bevan Feb 2015 #68

That was once. Three years ago. I've learned since then. n/t. Ken Burch Feb 2015 #112

The Op-eds everywhere cheering for a return to crony capitalism in Venezuela are penned by pathetic Wall Street shills. Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #106

Have you been down there to give Maduro some advice? snooper2 Feb 2015 #110

I am already Minister of Propaganda so why would I accept a demotion, silly? Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #111

Nationalize your oil and TPTB will undermine you at every turn. Scuba Feb 2015 #64

And the US will infect your president with cancer (according to Maduro): Nye Bevan Feb 2015 #69

That makes no sense. The TPTB gets all the VZ oil they want at they price they set. hack89 Feb 2015 #70

More like steal from people, christx30 Feb 2015 #72

I can only assume you mean stealing from the owners of the oil companies ... Scuba Feb 2015 #73

But when you lack the capital and expertise to manage and expand your oil industry hack89 Feb 2015 #74

When you have oil, you have access to capital. How could you miss that? Scuba Feb 2015 #76

But not enough - why do you think their oil production has been declining for a decade?nt hack89 Feb 2015 #80

If they don't have access to enough capital, it's because the banking .... Scuba Feb 2015 #84

Banks and companies don't invest in countries that break contracts and can't be trusted hack89 Feb 2015 #87

Banks do business with drug and arms dealers and anyone else who can pay ... Scuba Feb 2015 #89

It makes them money. VZ does not. hack89 Feb 2015 #93

I did notice that you think "oil industry experts" should be put in charge. Not surprising. Scuba Feb 2015 #94

Doesn't VZ have oil industry experts that can run an oil company? hack89 Feb 2015 #99

Can you admit that TPTB might not look favorably on any nation that nationalizes their oil? Scuba Feb 2015 #102

VZ nationalized their oil industry 43 years ago. hack89 Feb 2015 #105

TPTB understand the long game. Chavez held them off for a while, dramatically improving ... Scuba Feb 2015 #107

But it was Chavez that drove VZ's oil industry into the ground hack89 Feb 2015 #113

The asset remains intact, not given to foreign investors at discount prices. Scuba Feb 2015 #119

VZ is a member of the largest capitalist cartel in the world hack89 Feb 2015 #121

No, Venezuela disengaged from TPTB when they nationalized their oil. Scuba Feb 2015 #122

What about the 30 years after nationalization before Chavez came along? hack89 Feb 2015 #124

Please return the goalpost to its original position. Scuba Feb 2015 #129

You want to put the blame solely on the mythical TPTB hack89 Feb 2015 #131

Please provide evidence that the meddling is a new phenomenum. Scuba Feb 2015 #132

Spoken like a true conspiracy theorist: "Prove that I am wrong." hack89 Feb 2015 #133

No, it was you who implied that there was no meddling for 4 decades. And I have provided ... Scuba Feb 2015 #136

No - I said that the TPTB didn't give a rats ass about VZ nationalizing their oil industry in 1972 hack89 Feb 2015 #138

Your conclusion that meddling in 2006 means that TPTB ignored nationalization for 30 years ... Scuba Feb 2015 #139

So lets see your hard evidence of ongoing meddling hack89 Feb 2015 #146

Venezuela gives oil to other countries who turn around and sell it for a profit Bacchus4.0 Feb 2015 #134

Would you invest in Venezuela, christx30 Feb 2015 #126

Venezuela�s Oil Industry Exodus Slowing Crude Production hack89 Feb 2015 #81

I'm talking about the drilling equipment christx30 Feb 2015 #79

Hmmm. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #92

In VZ you lose money when you sell that TV hack89 Feb 2015 #101

Then I'd think there would be an opportunity to take those bolivars and Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #108

Export what? 96% of their exports is oil hack89 Feb 2015 #116

Which is why I suggested you'd have to invest in setting up production Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #117

Makes you wonder why the government didn't do this a long time ago. hack89 Feb 2015 #118

Wel, you have to admit, it seemed like a pretty safe bet. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #120

Look at the long lines christx30 Feb 2015 #103

Waitasec, I was replying to something YOU said. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #109

Those lines aren't high demand. christx30 Feb 2015 #114

And the airlines and every other foreign company 7962 Feb 2015 #154

Chavez was and Maduro is not much different from any other political huckster. MohRokTah Feb 2015 #71

It is never to late to diversify, only takes 2-4 months for a domestic crop harvest! Sunlei Feb 2015 #75

Except Venezuela's oil is a very low quality grade COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #78

they have quality crude aswell as gas and tarsands. one of the largest reserves in the world. Sunlei Feb 2015 #90

I don't see anything that says that their crude is COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #91

Their crude oil has to be shipped to the US for refining because GGJohn Feb 2015 #95

yes, they import gasoline from the US because they lack refining capacity Bacchus4.0 Feb 2015 #97

their citizens have a benefit of gasoline about 10 cents a gallon. so cost of refining must be r Sunlei Feb 2015 #115

One of the reasons their economy is swirling the COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #123

perhaps they can make a deal for a refinery with another country. It's a beautiful country, Sunlei Feb 2015 #128

You know, before Chavez that might have been a possibility. COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #137

Venezuela National Guard beating people in line waiting for food Bacchus4.0 Feb 2015 #85

At least they're not shooting them - yet. nt COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #125

It's said that in outside Feb 2015 #127

It won't be in the US. More likely Nicaragua or Bolivia. n/t Bacchus4.0 Feb 2015 #130

Yeah, that never happens when crony capitalists are in charge......funny stuff. Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #142

Clearly, this is Joe Biden's fault. I believe I heard Maduro say so the other day. hughee99 Feb 2015 #145

at least part of the problem is sabbat hunter Feb 2015 #156

It's the general problem that stems from cult of personality Marksman_91 Feb 2015 #157

It's why I get nervous christx30 Feb 2015 #161

It is the only way he can avoid a coup from the left. nt hack89 Feb 2015 #158