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happyslug

(14,779 posts)
20. The key is what is an Armor Piecing bullets under US Law.
Fri Feb 27, 2015, 12:13 PM
Feb 2015

Last edited Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:59 PM - Edit history (3)

18 USC 921(a)(17) Defines what is "Armor Piecing Ammunition"

(17)
(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.


(C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.


The key wording is "may be used in a handgun". If the ammunition can NOT be used in a handgun it can NOT be banned. Thus till the recent introduction of Pistols capable of firing 5,56x45 ammunition, the M855 was legal for it was NOT usable in an handgun.

When an "Handgun" was introduced that could fire 5.56x 45 ammunition, then the first test of being an "Armor Piercing bullet" was met. Then and only then did the second test had to be even reviewed. That second test is in the list of materials that do NOT expand (tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium) or weight of the outside jacket of the bullet that exceeds 25% of its total weight (Common in Armor Piecing bullets NOT common even in Full Metal Jacketed bullets).

Thus the M193 bullet, bring a FMJ bullet but NOT a Core of banned materials OR an outer jacket that consists of 25% of the total bullet weight is NOT an "Armor Piecing bullet" as defined above, but the M885 having a steel core does meet that second test and can be banned but only once a pistol was made in that caliber.

Please note 18 USC 921(a)(17) (C) which gives the Attorney General the option of ruling a round is for MOSTLY sporting purposes, which can include target shooting. That is the law the NRA is trying to use to keep surplus M885 ammunition legal. Notice the statute uses the terms "Finds" thus it is up to the Attorney General to made a decision if the M855 is used mostly for sporting purposes.

The ATF report on banning the M855 ammunition:

http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_projectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf

Senator Moynihan comment on the above Law:

Let me make clear what this bill does not do. Our legislation would not limit the availability of standard rifle ammunition with armor-piercing capability. We recognize that soft body armor is not intended to stop high powered rifle cartridges. Time and again Congressman Biaggi and I have stressed that only bullets capable of penetrating body armor and designed to be fired from a handgun would be banned; rifle ammunition would not be covered.


The report also points out the differences between 17 (B) (i) and 17 (B)(ii), in that when it comes to ammunition banned containing metals cores, 17(B)(i), the key phase in that ban is any ammunition that "may be used in a handgun". In 17(B)(ii), the 25% weight rule, uses the phase "intended for use in a handgun". Thus M855 which was NEVER intended to be used in a Handgun does NOT meet the definition of Armor Piecing ammunition under 17(B)(ii) but it does meet the definition of 17(B)(i) for today we have AR-15 pistols chambered for 5.56x45 mm ammunition. i.e. MAY BE USED IN A HANDGUN is the proper test for a bullet with a Steel Core (the M855), but if the outer jacket is more then 25% of the weight of the bullet the test is "Intended for use in a handgun".

Thus this ban can ONLY apply to M855 ammunition and its steel metal core. The only possible exception would be "primary sporting purposes" and the report handles that to mean what the ATF says is "primary sporting purposes" and that is limited to handguns capable of two shots or less. I have problems with that definition, but the ATF does point out most ammunition are fired at shooting ranges NOT on human targets and thus if the test was where such ammunition was mostly used ALL ammunition would fit under the Sporting Purpose use and that was clearly NOT the intention of Congress Congress wanted to ban SOMETHING. The Report also points out the other extreme was ALSO not want CONGRESS intended, i.e. all ammunition that could be fired in ANY pistol was also NOT the intent of Congress.

THE ATF then decided by its own regulation what Congress intended and came up with the rule that pistols that fires two rounds or less was the rule that fulfilled what was the intention of Congress. i.e. ammunition that could be fired by such pistols is ammunition exempt UNLESS such ammunition can also be fired from pistols that could fire three or more rounds before reloading.

I have problem with that ban, but it relates to the issue of "Short barreled" rifles, which are weapon with a stock that has a barrel less then 16 inches long (18 inches if the barrel is smooth-bore i.e. a shotgun). Variations of the AR-15 has come out with 14 inch or shorter barrels, but without a stock and thus are "Pistols" not "short barrelled rifles". If you see one being carried you will quickly see it is NOT what most people call a Pistol. The better way to deal would be to drop the whole concept of "Short Barrel rifles and Shotguns", and rule anything with with a rifled barrel less then 16 inches or a smooth bore barrel less then 18 inches but barrels longer then 7 inches (The length of Pistols used by the US Cavalry in the 1870s) are "Carbines" and special rules apply to them whether they have stocks or no stocks (which can include the present ban on such "short barrel rifles&quot . This work around the ban on "Short barrel Rifles" is the heart of the REAL problem. Either BAN them completely or legalize them and get it over with. The ban on Short Barrel Rifles and Shotguns is NOT effective UNLESS you address the issue of pistols with barrels longer then 7 inches.

Here is an AR-15 PISTOL with a 7 inch barrel:



http://www.bushmaster.com/firearms/pistols.asp

The piece that looks like a short stock at the rear of the AR-15 "Pistol" is part of the action of the AR-15 (it is the "Buffer" system used in AR-15 actions). The short buffer is NOT intended to be used as stock. In a full length AR-15 rifle. that extension is inside the stock one uses on a AR-15/M16 rifle, but in these short barrel AR-15 "Pistols" the buffer is NOT considered a "Stock" and thus does not make these AR-15 with 7 inch barrels a "Short Barrel Rifle" as that term is used in Federal Law.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Fortunately there are plenty of alternatives hack89 Feb 2015 #1
one down... mwrguy Feb 2015 #2
They didnt ban .223, just trying to ban one specific bullet Travis_0004 Feb 2015 #3
I know that. mwrguy Feb 2015 #18
The key is what is an Armor Piecing bullets under US Law. happyslug Feb 2015 #20
Kinda stupid, I agree. Adrahil Feb 2015 #52
"The key wording is "may be used in a handgun"." beevul Feb 2015 #85
IMO, our firearms laws are antiquated and silly.... Adrahil Mar 2015 #104
On what grounds? M193 is not armor piercing. nt hack89 Feb 2015 #21
It is not down. former9thward Feb 2015 #23
Great idea. Just wish I could live long enough to see it randys1 Feb 2015 #51
Why do people need armour-piercing bullets for self-defense? DetlefK Feb 2015 #4
Indeed. Exhibit A Feb 2015 #5
But what if they were attacked by a robot? Kevin from WI Feb 2015 #22
Some criminals wear ballistic vests while committing their crime Blandocyte Feb 2015 #45
In that case, ANY center fire cartridge will do. Adrahil Mar 2015 #102
99% of ALL rifle calibers invented since 1894 will penetrate Lurks Often Feb 2015 #10
So very true! n/t Adrahil Feb 2015 #55
Yep. nt Mojorabbit Feb 2015 #84
Yep. Even Great-grandpa's 100-yr old .30-30 Winchester would penetrate Kevlar NickB79 Feb 2015 #92
Yep Munificence Mar 2015 #107
Non-military ammo is actually deadlier hack89 Feb 2015 #11
They are used to hunt. former9thward Feb 2015 #24
Not in my state.... happyslug Feb 2015 #30
ANY modern center fire rifle bullet will penetrate soft body armor. Adrahil Feb 2015 #54
Not a fan of guns, but: MosheFeingold Feb 2015 #73
it's for aggressive and pre-emptive self-defense atop post offices and bell towers. Scootaloo Feb 2015 #81
Any rifle cartridge will Duckhunter935 Mar 2015 #103
If you want to make something popular try to ban it. n/t PoliticAverse Feb 2015 #6
Will not happen Duckhunter935 Feb 2015 #7
And Congress will say NO and that will be that, except everyone will know valerief Feb 2015 #8
What a weird country we are Bagsgroove Feb 2015 #9
It is, in these respects it's a very weird country. I guess it's innate primordial fear that drives RKP5637 Feb 2015 #12
I don't think bullets should be banned notadmblnd Feb 2015 #13
they are taxed Duckhunter935 Feb 2015 #14
I said tax the HELL out of them notadmblnd Feb 2015 #15
What you are proposing is unconstitutional. hack89 Feb 2015 #16
Then by your reasoning... philosslayer Feb 2015 #25
Absolutely not. hack89 Feb 2015 #26
How so? Cigarettes carry exorbitant taxes and no one has questioned the constitutionality of it? notadmblnd Feb 2015 #27
Because smoking cigarettes is not a right specifically mentioned in the Constitution hack89 Feb 2015 #28
The 2nd amendment does give one the right to own weapons notadmblnd Feb 2015 #31
Here is a court case that says the 2A covers ammunition. hack89 Feb 2015 #36
LoL lancer78 Feb 2015 #29
yeah, so? notadmblnd Feb 2015 #33
Smoking kills 15 times as many people annually as bullets hack89 Feb 2015 #32
You didn't answer my question. How is taxing bullets unconstitutional? notadmblnd Feb 2015 #34
Because "arms" includes ammunition hack89 Feb 2015 #37
Taxing ammunition exorbantly would not render your arms useless notadmblnd Feb 2015 #38
I know disarming poor people and minorities is a dream of some hack89 Feb 2015 #40
Lots of poor people still smoke. notadmblnd Feb 2015 #41
I take it you didn't read the court case I sent to you? hack89 Feb 2015 #42
no, there is nothing in my inbox notadmblnd Feb 2015 #43
It is a post in this thread. hack89 Feb 2015 #44
nothing in there I saw about taxing bullets. notadmblnd Feb 2015 #46
You can tax bullets. Never disagreed with you about that hack89 Feb 2015 #47
Taxing them would not restrict their availability. notadmblnd Feb 2015 #48
What is the stated goal of your tax? hack89 Feb 2015 #49
And still you haven't shown me that law notadmblnd Feb 2015 #61
Cigarette tax money goes into the states general revenue funds hack89 Feb 2015 #65
I do believe medicaid $$ come from a State's general fund along with some funding from the Fed Gov notadmblnd Feb 2015 #69
Think for a second why poll taxes are illegal and it will all make sense. nt hack89 Feb 2015 #66
re-read post 61 notadmblnd Feb 2015 #67
Except that cigarette taxes are not used to mitigate the harms of smoking hack89 Feb 2015 #68
perhaps not directly, and yes, the tax on bullets could very well be set aside to defray costs notadmblnd Feb 2015 #71
So bullets are taxed right now at 11% to support environmental projects. hack89 Feb 2015 #74
Somewhere in this thread, a poster said they could get 1000 rounds for 88 dollars notadmblnd Feb 2015 #76
Why? So the manufacturer can make bigger profits? hack89 Feb 2015 #78
That's like saying we need a huge tax on cars.... Adrahil Mar 2015 #100
Show me a state that does not use cigarette taxes as a means to reduce the numbers of people smoking hack89 Feb 2015 #70
no, it's an added benefit notadmblnd Feb 2015 #72
So all you would have to do is calibrate your tax rate so there was no such "added benefit" hack89 Feb 2015 #75
a conservative judge might. notadmblnd Feb 2015 #77
Strict judicial scrutiny. The rock on which gun control founders time and time again. hack89 Feb 2015 #79
So putting a $1000 tax on an abortion would be ok? hack89 Feb 2015 #50
Good to know that I'm right and you have no valid argument left notadmblnd Feb 2015 #53
We are talking about using taxes to limit Constitutional rights. hack89 Feb 2015 #57
No, you are. notadmblnd Feb 2015 #62
The SCotUS has LONG maintained.... Adrahil Feb 2015 #58
see post # 61 notadmblnd Feb 2015 #63
Charging the 100 million plus that aren't murdering anyone... beevul Feb 2015 #86
suicide via smoking is no different, it just takes longer. notadmblnd Feb 2015 #90
Thats not a refutation of what I said. N/T beevul Feb 2015 #91
Every cigarette smoker smoker produces harmful second-hand smoke.... Adrahil Mar 2015 #97
Wouldn't exorbinant taxes on ammo lancer78 Mar 2015 #94
How is not having enough money to buy bullets Politicalboi Feb 2015 #59
Using taxes to specifically restrict the exercise of a constitutional right is illegal hack89 Feb 2015 #64
Try it out on another amendment... Oktober Mar 2015 #96
How is not having enough money to pay a poll tax Adrahil Mar 2015 #98
Actually, making cartridges so expensive that no one can afford to practice.... Adrahil Feb 2015 #56
how much is the retail cost these days per round? Sunlei Feb 2015 #17
Pretty silly, I can buy FMJ regular copper bullets for 1/2 the price. ileus Feb 2015 #19
Some folks want M855.... Adrahil Feb 2015 #60
The Army HATES the.M855 Telcontar Feb 2015 #87
Do you have a link to an article on this? I would love to send this to some rightwing politicians greatlaurel Mar 2015 #105
I dont know of any articles in public domain Telcontar Mar 2015 #106
at first I thought this said Mullet snooper2 Feb 2015 #35
This stuff will get republicans elected in 2016. Purveyor Feb 2015 #39
The gunners will just stock up more than usual, they never know how many people they need to shoot. Hoyt Feb 2015 #80
I'll just keep buying the cheap walmart 100 round boxes of winchester. ileus Feb 2015 #82
Ironically, M855 is the LEAST lethal of the 5.56mm rounds available. US servicemen HATE it NickB79 Feb 2015 #83
So more lead ammo will have to be sold to make up the shortfall madville Feb 2015 #88
I need to come up with some cheap gun thing that i could mark way up and then send out the word dembotoz Feb 2015 #89
We have a winner! It is really is just marketing to get people to buy outdated junk ammo. greatlaurel Mar 2015 #95
You may be kidding... Adrahil Mar 2015 #99
For fun, I went to Sportsman's Guide in West St. Paul, MN, today to see how the gun nuts were doing NickB79 Feb 2015 #93
A fool and his money..... Adrahil Mar 2015 #101
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