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Alhena

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89. Generalizations are appropriate here ...

Tue May 8, 2012, 04:30 PM

May 2012

Generalizations are appropriate because what I described is ALWAYS the reaction on this board to any government, anywhere, deciding to not repay a debt, to nationalize a company or industry, etc. Not universal reaction, mind you, but it's always a strong majority.

And it just goes against common sense and human nature - for there to be a debtor there has to be a lender. And for a lender to loan his money he's going to need assurances that he will be repaid.

It's possible to be a progressive and still live in the real world. And in the real world the actions of Greece are not sustainable or laudable, so excuse me if I don't join in the chorus of cheers for their actions. In the real world, if you bilk your lenders you need to be prepared to live without getting more loans from them.

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Germans warns Greece: no cuts, no aid [View all] hack89 May 2012 OP

When less western countries refuse austerity measures, they are on the fast trackto invasion/assault WingDinger May 2012 #1

Just who is going to assault them? nt hack89 May 2012 #3

As in South America, sluffing off the IMF strictures gets you branded commies, or terrists. WingDinger May 2012 #11

The IMF, it has long been asserted, is a neo-colonialist closeupready May 2012 #15

Whut? eom BlueCaliDem May 2012 #6

Invasion by whom? 4th law of robotics May 2012 #14

Germany has a track record of doing that. :P octothorpe May 2012 #171

It's time for Greece to pull an Argentina. marmar May 2012 #2

Invade the Falklands? nt hack89 May 2012 #4

Well, that's one way to rid yourself of colonial parasites. marmar May 2012 #38

and replace them with slightly earlier parasaites dmallind May 2012 #44

lol. <3 octothorpe May 2012 #172

or an Iceland ... TBF May 2012 #5

Implement IMF austerity measures and raises taxes in exchange for billions of dollars? nt hack89 May 2012 #9

Maybe read this interview with Iceland president �lafur Ragnar - TBF May 2012 #12

Greece =/= Iceland 4th law of robotics May 2012 #16

Right ... TBF May 2012 #19

No, you can't compare the US to Greece either 4th law of robotics May 2012 #20

So? He says they needed billions of dollars from the IMF and Europe and ... hack89 May 2012 #22

Germany running Europe Again Thrill May 2012 #7

This is a good point. If Germany wasn't prepared closeupready May 2012 #23

The EU is the German Empire without the Kaiser. Odin2005 May 2012 #37

Germany isn't running Europe, but it's funding Europe tabasco May 2012 #66

All I can say is it looks like the Germans needed to find snappyturtle May 2012 #8

I suspect the Greek people wanted a lot of money with no conditions hack89 May 2012 #10

Blame the workers ... nice TBF May 2012 #13

Workers? No. Voters? Absolutely 4th law of robotics May 2012 #21

Crazy talk ... nt TBF May 2012 #24

Deep stuff there 4th law of robotics May 2012 #26

I'm arguing against your premise of supporting TBF May 2012 #27

Which is it: status quo or austerity measures? 4th law of robotics May 2012 #30

I will use simpler terms so you can understand - TBF May 2012 #33

"No, the workers do not want to live under austerity conditions." 4th law of robotics May 2012 #39

Solution - break away from EU and IMF TBF May 2012 #42

The solution is to build a new global economic system in a couple of months? OK. nt hack89 May 2012 #43

Did I say a couple of months? Whatever. I think TBF May 2012 #45

So how do the Greeks get through the next year or so? hack89 May 2012 #49

So break away from the EU and IMF, but still recieve money from the EU and IMF 4th law of robotics May 2012 #46

More crazy talk - that's just dishonest. TBF May 2012 #48

What exactly do the Greeks want? nt hack89 May 2012 #50

The election results speak for themselves. nt TBF May 2012 #51

Did they vote in favor of specific policies hack89 May 2012 #54

You can google as well as I can - TBF May 2012 #55

Good luck to them - they will need it. nt hack89 May 2012 #57

The most popular party was the centre-right pro-austerity New Democracy muriel_volestrangler May 2012 #90

The election results say: we want our cake and to be able to eat it too 4th law of robotics May 2012 #61

What can I say to that kind of right-wing TBF May 2012 #73

Neither right nor left; just math 4th law of robotics May 2012 #86

But who pays for it? The leaders making those calls TBF May 2012 #91

Who voted for those leaders? 4th law of robotics May 2012 #101

When folks don't have any real choices I can - TBF May 2012 #106

So the ruling elites didn't provide the "workers" with a suitable candidate 4th law of robotics May 2012 #117

I'm aware of how capitalists function TBF May 2012 #118

Weak 4th law of robotics May 2012 #119

Look, can I point something out for you that may help? 4th law of robotics May 2012 #87

What is it that you don't understand? TBF May 2012 #92

Being clear which side you are on is not the same as being clear why you are making an argument 4th law of robotics May 2012 #100

What money? I could care less about the predatory banks and their money. nt TBF May 2012 #107

Ah yes, default then? 4th law of robotics May 2012 #116

A revision of the principles of basic mathematics 4th law of robotics May 2012 #63

You're talking about breaking from the EU 4th law of robotics May 2012 #60

Where is your cite for that nonsense? nt TBF May 2012 #93

That they want free money with no consequences? 4th law of robotics May 2012 #99

That's your interpretation - not mine. nt TBF May 2012 #108

And what is your interpretation? 4th law of robotics May 2012 #115

I agree with the KKE in Greece - TBF May 2012 #121

National socialism tama May 2012 #130

I know - TBF May 2012 #133

Necessity is the mother of invention tama May 2012 #135

Do you have any suggestions for reading about what is happening there? TBF May 2012 #136

No good suggestions, sorry nt tama May 2012 #137

Have you ever been to Greece? JDPriestly May 2012 #68

That is how I see it as well - TBF May 2012 #76

Who wants to have a tourism-dependent economy? tralala May 2012 #138

Secession The2ndWheel May 2012 #53

You mean from the EU? Sure I suppose they could try it cstanleytech May 2012 #98

How about aggressively going after wealthy tax evaders? aquart May 2012 #132

Aww... sendero May 2012 #154

The austerity was imposed from without. JDPriestly May 2012 #65

No, austerity hasn't been imposed on anyone 4th law of robotics May 2012 #70

So what conditions did the Greek people say they were willing to accept? hack89 May 2012 #25

I never understood the "people" were formally snappyturtle May 2012 #29

Why should the people accept any "conditions" TBF May 2012 #31

Why should the countries of the EU give them any money? hack89 May 2012 #34

It remains to be seen TBF May 2012 #40

It seems like they agreed to continue doing things exactly as they had 4th law of robotics May 2012 #32

That I sort of agree with - TBF May 2012 #56

How rude of the Germans to offer all this money without first 4th law of robotics May 2012 #17

Germans are offering no money to Greece. JackRiddler May 2012 #79

Germans are offering up money to pay off the debts Greece eagerly acquired 4th law of robotics May 2012 #88

Greece will simply nationalize their banks magic59 May 2012 #18

"Take greed and corruption out of the equation" by putting politicians in charge? In Greece? hack89 May 2012 #28

Saying "bye bye to the Euro" is the tricky stage muriel_volestrangler May 2012 #35

Way too late for that hack89 May 2012 #41

They don't need to set up a currency from scratch Art_from_Ark May 2012 #155

*Had*. It's no longer legal currency there. muriel_volestrangler May 2012 #156

The thing is, Greece had a viable currency before the euro Art_from_Ark May 2012 #157

Again, *had*. muriel_volestrangler May 2012 #158

The Germans are inciting some long-standing anti-German resentment in Greece... Odin2005 May 2012 #36

That resentment didn't bubble up until the Germans threatened to stop cutting checks 4th law of robotics May 2012 #47

I think Germany is running a mercantile scheme on the smaller economies and byeya May 2012 #52

The germans got together and said: 4th law of robotics May 2012 #58

Uhhh, that is a racist term. I'm sad your post got 3-3 to LEAVE IT when someone alerted you Zalatix May 2012 #96

Krauts? Codeine May 2012 #102

Hey Odin, how 'bout editing out the ethnic slur?...nt SidDithers May 2012 #104

Edited, I didn't know it was considered a slur. Odin2005 May 2012 #111

Awesome. Thanks!!... SidDithers May 2012 #112

I feel so embarassed! Odin2005 May 2012 #113

Perhaps it will take Greece literally running out of money for the voters to realize Nye Bevan May 2012 #59

Yeah the time to bail out of the EU was a while back 4th law of robotics May 2012 #62

So, you want to guarantee Greece dumps the euro? Kelvin Mace May 2012 #64

Hard to say what the impact of dumping the EURO would be. hack89 May 2012 #69

Part of me actually wants Greece to exit the Euro. Nye Bevan May 2012 #71

Right now all Greece needs is some adult leadership hack89 May 2012 #72

Missing From This Debate DallasNE May 2012 #67

Absolutely correct grantcart May 2012 #74

Agree - TBF May 2012 #78

Translation from German: Kill yourselves, or we won't do you the favor of killing you. JackRiddler May 2012 #75

Very similar to what we went through here in a way - TBF May 2012 #77

So the Greek government bears no responsiblity? None at all? hack89 May 2012 #80

So you're for slicing up little kittens, are you? Really?! JackRiddler May 2012 #82

The banks have accepted a 70% loss on their loans. hack89 May 2012 #84

You are again changing the subject to evade acknowledging your false statement. JackRiddler May 2012 #122

The bailout is designed to fund all Greek government expenses until 2014 hack89 May 2012 #124

Bald tama May 2012 #131

Then Greece will never be able to borrow again hack89 May 2012 #139

Yup tama May 2012 #141

But the people would starve too hack89 May 2012 #143

Tae this to heart tama May 2012 #146

. inna May 2012 #114

European banks have already taken up to a 70% loss on Greek debt as part of the bailout hack89 May 2012 #81

So are you Greece supporters buying Greek bonds? Alhena May 2012 #83

My, so clever. Such generalizations. JackRiddler May 2012 #85

Generalizations are appropriate here ... Alhena May 2012 #89

Why would that be someone's position? TBF May 2012 #94

Those are the terms of the agreement they reached ... Alhena May 2012 #95

That's up to the lawyers to figure out TBF May 2012 #97

But the Greeks have a lot to lose. The Germans not so much. hack89 May 2012 #103

The greek workers have nothing to lose but their chains. nt TBF May 2012 #105

And their jobs, pensions and future. nt hack89 May 2012 #109

Disgusting statement, given that you support robbing them of their jobs, pensions and future. JackRiddler May 2012 #123

I am agnostic on the matter. I don't care what choice the Greeks make. hack89 May 2012 #125

This is not crisis of Greece. It is the crisis of capitalism. JackRiddler May 2012 #126

Bye. nt hack89 May 2012 #127

Capitulation accepted, but unfortunately you don't mean it. JackRiddler May 2012 #128

Capitulation my ass. hack89 May 2012 #129

But you do always have time to defame the Greek people as childish and irresponsible. JackRiddler May 2012 #134

So you tell me what the solution is hack89 May 2012 #140

There is no alternative to years of hardship, but there is a choice. JackRiddler May 2012 #142

The answer is for Greece to withdraw from the global economy hack89 May 2012 #144

Your characterization is typically wrong. I provided an answer. JackRiddler May 2012 #145

It's a painfull wake-up tama May 2012 #147

Do you have a solution grounded in reality? One that the Greeks want and will support? hack89 May 2012 #150

Once again, you are misrepresenting what I clearly wrote. JackRiddler May 2012 #151

PS - Do you have a solution grounded in reality? JackRiddler May 2012 #152

I do not endorse any solution - I have no problem leaving it to the Greeks hack89 May 2012 #153

The responsible solution that is grounded in reality: tralala May 2012 #169

Ironic, I presume? JackRiddler May 2012 #173

The transfers to Greece are for European banks. Prometheus Bound May 2012 #148

It also goes to salaries, pensions, health care and other governement services hack89 May 2012 #149

Eurozone crisis: EU moves to loosen grip of austerity muriel_volestrangler May 2012 #110

And so it begins...... DeSwiss May 2012 #120

No fiscal reform can be efficient without growth ChangoLoa May 2012 #159

Structural deficits are bad for growth. hack89 May 2012 #160

An austerity shock will take growth even deeper into negative figures ChangoLoa May 2012 #161

Is it even clear that the Greek people are willing to accept any austerity? hack89 May 2012 #162

Many measures have been already applied and they know they'll have to accept more ChangoLoa May 2012 #163

So the Germans and the EU step back and wash their hands of the entire matter. hack89 May 2012 #164

You mean the EU amputates itself from one of its members? ChangoLoa May 2012 #165

So the Greeks can violate EU monetary policy with impunity hack89 May 2012 #166

It is in the interest long term for EU members that Greece remains a member for a variety of reasons Harmony Blue May 2012 #167

I'm not so sure. hack89 May 2012 #168

Well, a hair cut is tolerated to a certain extent Harmony Blue May 2012 #170