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jeff47

(26,549 posts)

25. No. Voting is not zero-sum.

Thu Dec 10, 2015, 11:32 AM

Dec 2015

Democratic-leaning independents won't vote for the Republican. They'll just stay home. Like they did in 2010 and 2014, and to a lesser extent in 2012 (Obama lost 1/2 of his popular vote margin between 2008 and 2012, largely due to Democratic-leaning independents staying home).

Democratic-leaning independents will not "fall in line". They are not Democrats.
Democratic-leaning independents are not motivated by "Republicans bad!".
Democratic-leaning independents are to the left of the median Democrat. So "pivot to the center" is exactly the wrong thing to do.

We need high turnout among Democratic-leaning independents or we lose. Clinton is starting in a massive hole with them, and shows no evidence of believing it's possible she's below grade, much less have a plan to get out of that hole.

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Most Americans are nervous or scared about Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton [View all] Attorney in Texas Dec 2015 OP

I really love the cleverness of the Bernie Movement in equating HRC and Trump. Buzz Clik Dec 2015 #1

+1 .. n/t obnoxiousdrunk Dec 2015 #2

Agree. What nonsense equating Hillary with a dysfunctional fascist. Hortensis Dec 2015 #26

Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2015 #31

The OP misstates Clinton support BADLY, Hortensis Dec 2015 #34

The OP ... staggerleem Dec 2015 #59

76% of Democrats feel GOOD about Hillary. As for the OP, Hortensis Dec 2015 #69

So NOW your wanting to parse a national poll? blackspade Dec 2015 #62

Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2015 #71

No, it's not. It's polled Democrats. Hortensis Dec 2015 #73

Now That Sounds itcfish Dec 2015 #86

The similarities between the RW and Sanders folks Gman Dec 2015 #55

Funny ... staggerleem Dec 2015 #61

On this forum there are a few non-bernies who have become trollish, Hortensis Dec 2015 #117

A New York Times/CBS poll result is "the Bernie Movement"? nt. m-lekktor Dec 2015 #5

I was NOT speaking of the poll, which is incredibly obvious to those not looking for an argument. Buzz Clik Dec 2015 #91

What did Bernie have to do with this? 840high Dec 2015 #11

Absolutely nothing. Buzz Clik Dec 2015 #92

Rectal extraction at its finest mindwalker_i Dec 2015 #21

I assume you're referring to the OP: I totally agree. Buzz Clik Dec 2015 #93

If I had meant to respond to the OP, I would have responded to the OP mindwalker_i Dec 2015 #99

Yep. But in the spirit of your original response to me: Buzz Clik Dec 2015 #101

the only equation is that they are both the 'front runners' for their respective parties azurnoir Dec 2015 #52

"another day another smear" Indeed. The author of the OP should be ashamed, but we know better. Buzz Clik Dec 2015 #94

The HIllary movement has been equating Bernie to Ron Paul for months. morningfog Dec 2015 #53

Not the same. Buzz Clik Dec 2015 #95

Of course not. Of course. morningfog Dec 2015 #103

The parallel between Gore and HRC in that context is true. Buzz Clik Dec 2015 #110

I am not "having a sad" and I think you are confused. morningfog Dec 2015 #111

Good lord. No idea why I locked in on Nader. That's embarrassing. Buzz Clik Dec 2015 #112

I spend the better part of my day in a brain cramp. morningfog Dec 2015 #113

Yup, that has been the pattern among some for some time. The old Nader still_one Dec 2015 #54

I love the way people use RIGHT WING SOURCES like THE WEEK to make their points. MADem Dec 2015 #57

The CBS poll is equating Trump and Clinton. blackspade Dec 2015 #60

The poll isn't equating ANYONE OR ANYTHING! staggerleem Dec 2015 #63

You're misunderstanding my response. blackspade Dec 2015 #64

It's not the poll that's the problem, it is the OP and posters who make similar comparison. Buzz Clik Dec 2015 #96

The poll is doing the comparing. blackspade Dec 2015 #107

the poll did. jeez roguevalley Dec 2015 #97

Nope. The author of the OP misled the readers with the thread title and supporting text. Buzz Clik Dec 2015 #98

And yet 52% say they'll vote for Clinton, only 32% (down 1% from November) for Sanders. George II Dec 2015 #3

it makes complete sense to restrict the question restorefreedom Dec 2015 #45

Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2015 #72

Which one of these candidates would you like to see the Democratic Party nominate? baldguy Dec 2015 #4

The Democratic party is 30% of the electorate. jeff47 Dec 2015 #6

But the Democratic Party is almost 100% of the Democratic Primary electorate. George II Dec 2015 #8

And that still doesn't win the GE. jeff47 Dec 2015 #9

Except Obama lost independents in 2012....and still won. nt Cali_Democrat Dec 2015 #10

He got enough of them to win. Independents are roughly split 50-50 jeff47 Dec 2015 #18

So Bernie has 30% of the Democrats 30% redstateblues Dec 2015 #104

Virtually all registered Democrats will vote for the nominee. jeff47 Dec 2015 #116

52% of 30% of the electorate Doctor_J Dec 2015 #16

You should be. jeff47 Dec 2015 #22

Wait!!! itcfish Dec 2015 #89

It's independents and cross-overs who win GE elections. Hepburn Dec 2015 #15

And do you know what drives those people away? baldguy Dec 2015 #23

To the people I have spoken with -- what drives them away is... Hepburn Dec 2015 #29

As if Sanders could win the general election, Beacool Dec 2015 #28

Democrats are 30% of the electorate. You don't win a general election with 30%. jeff47 Dec 2015 #36

Would you care to expand on your thoughts? Or is that the extent of your observation? Vincardog Dec 2015 #44

My point was clear. Beacool Dec 2015 #106

Yes see Bernie winning every democratic voter that cares a out winning the GE. The winner is the Vincardog Dec 2015 #108

I saw another poll with Clinton getting 6 percent of the Indpedendent vote CoffeeCat Dec 2015 #7

I'd like to see that poll leftynyc Dec 2015 #13

No, 94% will not vote for Hillary -- that is the issue. n/t Hepburn Dec 2015 #17

So somewhere in that poll leftynyc Dec 2015 #20

You are not getting this, are you? Hepburn Dec 2015 #24

And the Poll STILL hasn't been posted leftynyc Dec 2015 #39

So what percentage will it be? Desert805 Dec 2015 #82

No idea leftynyc Dec 2015 #87

What does it matter? Hepburn Dec 2015 #84

Bullshit leftynyc Dec 2015 #88

Link to the poll please. leftofcool Dec 2015 #105

No. Voting is not zero-sum. jeff47 Dec 2015 #25

So you've seen this leftynyc Dec 2015 #41

I'm not talking about that poll. I'm talking about the make-up of the electorate jeff47 Dec 2015 #48

Take it up with the leftynyc Dec 2015 #65

Are you EVER going to post leftynyc Dec 2015 #40

This poll as presented by NYT/CBS is a pretty bad gauge of the opinions of Americans.... George II Dec 2015 #12

Finally I am in the majority on something Doctor_J Dec 2015 #14

K/R 1K n/t SmittynMo Dec 2015 #27

The majority of Americans don't want their taxes raised upaloopa Dec 2015 #37

When it's framed by right wingers, you are correct Doctor_J Dec 2015 #43

Again you are using talking points upaloopa Dec 2015 #75

I saw him get upset when reporters asked about foreign policy. He wanted to talk about the economy. Laser102 Dec 2015 #74

Why is HRC unwilling to apologize for her vote for a WAR CRIME???? Why KingCharlemagne Dec 2015 #115

Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2015 #19

When the chips are down, I doubt that Trump will be the Republican nominee. Beacool Dec 2015 #30

Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2015 #32

I read that kind of wishful thinking on RW sites. Beacool Dec 2015 #33

Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2015 #38

and you are proud of smearing a Dem on a Dem board!! Shame on you. riversedge Dec 2015 #46

Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2015 #67

Irony ain't just a lump of ferrous material... whatthehey Dec 2015 #49

Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2015 #68

LOL - the cons have leftynyc Dec 2015 #42

Holy False Equivalency, Batman! nt Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2015 #35

Thank you. riversedge Dec 2015 #47

And for the record for all the GD:P people out there..... Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2015 #50

well Bernie is NOT an outsider VanillaRhapsody Dec 2015 #78

Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2015 #51

Why? Thenewire Dec 2015 #56

Everyone I've spoken with agrees that this election SUCKS. There are NO decent candidates. Xithras Dec 2015 #58

One reason, IMHO, is the post-Watergate micro-scrutiny of candidates steve2470 Dec 2015 #109

I admire supporters who work tirelessly for their candidate. LanternWaste Dec 2015 #66

This is such bullshit. murielm99 Dec 2015 #70

Insightful analysis. frylock Dec 2015 #76

22% of Democrats are excited about Clinton. frylock Dec 2015 #77

Why even care about what Republicans think? ThoughtCriminal Dec 2015 #79

Trump cannot win the general election because he has no support among independents and Democrats. Attorney in Texas Dec 2015 #80

There you go again. Another post conflating Trump and Hillary. Nitram Dec 2015 #81

26 years Bernin Dec 2015 #83

Come On Now itcfish Dec 2015 #85

one is a neocon who will continue the endless wars, the other is insane. yurbud Dec 2015 #90

Plain ridiculous that Americans are almost as scared of Hillary Clinton as they are of Trump. Zing Zing Zingbah Dec 2015 #100

A Sanders nomination is scary to me, he does not have a foreign policy Thinkingabout Dec 2015 #102

Your fears about ISIS are misdirected. You are 187 times more likely to starve to death in American Attorney in Texas Dec 2015 #114

This information does not give Sanders foreign affairs knowedge, he lacks in this area. Thinkingabout Dec 2015 #118

Clinton has less experience focusing on poverty than Sanders has focusing on foreign affairs. Attorney in Texas Dec 2015 #119

What, less experience, has Sanders ever went into migrant camps seeking the children in those Thinkingabout Dec 2015 #120