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hack89

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96. Economic sanctions not a blockade

Sun Apr 10, 2016, 06:49 PM

Apr 2016

sanctions in response to Japan waging a war of aggression against their neighbors. The U.S. simply stopped selling oil to Japan - there was no blockade.

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In Hiroshima, Kerry will not apologize for atomic bombs dropped on Japan [View all] jpak Apr 2016 OP

Why should he? It would be lose-lose either way. Blue_Tires Apr 2016 #1

If you don't want an atomic bomb dropped on your country, Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #2

Like Iraq? Nt uppityperson Apr 2016 #3

DAAAMMMN Ash_F Apr 2016 #22

Because they took over Kuwait? JustABozoOnThisBus Apr 2016 #60

I meant shrub's invasion of Iraq uppityperson Apr 2016 #61

Exactly. forest444 Apr 2016 #88

No, not at all like Iraq. EX500rider Apr 2016 #71

" don't start an insane war of aggression'. nt uppityperson Apr 2016 #75

A war to remove a dictator and install a democracy, no matter how stupid, EX500rider Apr 2016 #79

This is nonsense. TowneshipRebellion Apr 2016 #222

Nothing done in or to Iraq comes even close to what the Japanese did in WWII. EX500rider Apr 2016 #224

Right but nothing the Japanese did in WWII compares to the evil TowneshipRebellion Apr 2016 #227

Really the US practiced cannibalism and vivisection and... EX500rider Apr 2016 #231

I don't know... TowneshipRebellion Apr 2016 #309

I am pretty sure if we had killed over 1/2 million people in WWII.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #310

Why should we assume that to be the case. TowneshipRebellion Apr 2016 #311

Actually we definitely had the high ground.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #312

What's your opinion on Russia's role in winning the war? kristopher Apr 2016 #37

Well the Soviet/Japanese war lasted 3 weeks and 3 days.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #74

And the largest Japanese losses were to the Russians happyslug Apr 2016 #202

If the Japanese lost 21,000-83,000 fighting the Russians.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #208

You are missing the POWs the Russians took... happyslug Apr 2016 #241

So, you are trying to,argue the Soviets were more effective? Adrahil Apr 2016 #277

The Soviets were more effective for they were more feared. happyslug Apr 2016 #287

I think that's nonsense. Adrahil Apr 2016 #288

Thus the US agreed NOT to remove the Emperor and post war kept on the old ruling elite happyslug Apr 2016 #289

That Soviets didn't care about human life, after the Soviets invaded Finland, and then Poland, braddy Apr 2016 #154

Excuse me, I had non-Nazi relatives living in Germeny greymouse Apr 2016 #84

Germany was destroyed from the air by bombers anyway.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #127

Actually the post war study on the bombing said the bombing HELPED the Nazis. happyslug Apr 2016 #198

Not really... EX500rider Apr 2016 #209

You forgot the most important paragraph from the cite you use happyslug Apr 2016 #220

I think diversion of military forces was a large factor.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #221

Most of the troops manning the Gun Towers were "exempt" from the front.. happyslug Apr 2016 #236

A Nuclear blast in the middle of Europe??? freebrew Apr 2016 #140

Not that different from a nuclear blast in the middle of Japan. Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #144

According to history... freebrew Apr 2016 #157

You are sick. morningfog Apr 2016 #226

As I have mentioned elsewhere in this thread, Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #229

Yes, I got that. Sickness on display. morningfog Apr 2016 #232

I don't think it's quite as morally unambiguous as you think. Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #234

Sick. morningfog Apr 2016 #237

How about the D-Day invasion, with the hundreds of thousands of casualties Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #239

I'm not talking about actions. I'm talking about your dream bombings from 2016z morningfog Apr 2016 #240

Uh oh. My wife is Japanese and this is still a dangerous topic between us. Kablooie Apr 2016 #4

Hmmm... GummyBearz Apr 2016 #16

Another Nod to Donald Trump at DU noretreatnosurrender Apr 2016 #65

I loll'd GummyBearz Apr 2016 #66

Wow... TipTok Apr 2016 #146

Dont feel bad about saying something, I support your comment, but I wont make Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #151

I Don't feel bad at all noretreatnosurrender Apr 2016 #168

I've had 2 Japanese wives and neither felt/feels that way. kristopher Apr 2016 #36

Hmm thats probably why they say war is hell, every side did things in that war that they shouldnt cstanleytech Apr 2016 #52

+1 kristopher Apr 2016 #54

True. The Fire Bombing of Tokyo was even worse. nt Bonobo Apr 2016 #133

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2016 #314

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2016 #315

Depending on who is doing the counting, the Fire Bomb raid on Tokyo caused the greatest loss of life happyslug Apr 2016 #205

It's hard for those of Japanese decent to come to terms with the terrible way Japan waged war TeamPooka Apr 2016 #58

Yes. I've tried discussing with her but it's too emotional a topic for her. Kablooie Apr 2016 #91

may I ask Skittles Apr 2016 #255

I was trying to describe the silly duck and cover routines I learned as a kid. Kablooie Apr 2016 #272

My wife is Chinese. Rape of Nanking, Unit 731 in Harbin and human experimentation Feeling the Bern Apr 2016 #121

My wife hates the right wing war worshippers. Kablooie Apr 2016 #130

An eye for an eye. ozone_man Apr 2016 #169

Japan was given THREE warnings from the US before whathehell Apr 2016 #238

There is no justification for killing 100,000 women and children ozone_man Apr 2016 #256

300,000 men, women and children in Nanjing. 20,000 women raped in Nanjing Feeling the Bern Apr 2016 #260

I see, it's OK when we do it. ozone_man Apr 2016 #298

"Instantly killing a hundred thousand civilians." Feeling the Bern Apr 2016 #299

It's not a case of one being better than the other. ozone_man Apr 2016 #300

They started the damn war. No one cared in 1931-1938 when they were butchering Chinese Feeling the Bern Apr 2016 #301

It's not revisionist to say that we dropped A-bombs ozone_man Apr 2016 #302

On starting the war... EX500rider Apr 2016 #304

What were we supposed to have done then? treestar Apr 2016 #307

That's the way bullies think. christx30 Apr 2016 #313

Justification is in dispute, whathehell Apr 2016 #280

Yup, being a superpower means never having to say .. FairWinds Apr 2016 #5

"Trying to surrender"? How difficult was it to send a telegram to FDR and Churchill Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #6

Sounds like you have not read much at all . . FairWinds Apr 2016 #8

"............and apologized for you" EX500rider Apr 2016 #128

I just apologized to America for you. You're welcome. nt TeamPooka Apr 2016 #296

Have you ever heard of Prince Konoe? kristopher Apr 2016 #38

What about him? EX500rider Apr 2016 #76

So the answer is no. kristopher Apr 2016 #78

No, the answer was "So what?" EX500rider Apr 2016 #113

Well, getting one to FDR would have been tricky awoke_in_2003 Apr 2016 #73

Talks were under way Scootaloo Apr 2016 #77

Bull fucking shit. tabasco Apr 2016 #9

I respectively disagree with your opinion. olddad56 Apr 2016 #32

I disagree less respectfully. kristopher Apr 2016 #42

Defeated and surrendered are two different things EX500rider Apr 2016 #69

A lot of it was to save the POWs who were dying by the 10s of 1000s, and in fact were braddy Apr 2016 #155

From what is said. Kerry will speak for a nuclear free future karynnj Apr 2016 #13

Correct. kristopher Apr 2016 #43

He should be ashamed to speak of a nuclear free future. SamKnause Apr 2016 #55

He has been an advocate for reducing/eliminating nuclear weapons his whole career karynnj Apr 2016 #99

I don't care if he is speaking for president Obama. SamKnause Apr 2016 #100

Have you ever heard of Obama/Lugar - the extention of Nunn/Lugar karynnj Apr 2016 #102

Here is a link. SamKnause Apr 2016 #104

Anybody who thinks the US should unilaterally disarm... EX500rider Apr 2016 #112

I like how you slipped in a jab to the birthers! scscholar Apr 2016 #57

Ignorant, naive, anti-American crap. Odin2005 Apr 2016 #15

You seem to be the one that's brainwashed. ForgoTheConsequence Apr 2016 #25

Tens of millions? How about billions? Bonobo Apr 2016 #134

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2016 #306

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2016 #308

There is some basis to his numbers melm00se Apr 2016 #142

You do know that Japanese troops fought to pretty much the last man.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #250

Is the name-calling really necessary? FairWinds Apr 2016 #26

You first Hekate Apr 2016 #193

Post removed Post removed Apr 2016 #242

You do place a great reliance on test scores et al, don't you? Bet you "keep score" too. Hekate Apr 2016 #254

question melm00se Apr 2016 #291

Exactly...When they received the warnings on Hiroshima, they knew they were losing whathehell Apr 2016 #282

Trying to surrender? lol They took two atomic bomb hits and wanted to keep fighting TeamPooka Apr 2016 #59

As I mentioned earlier, the Atomic bombing had NO affect on the decision to surrender happyslug Apr 2016 #292

There's nothing like knowing zero about the Axis, especially the Japanese war crimes in Asia. Hekate Apr 2016 #159

That the Japanese were trying to surrender is post war revisionism. happyslug Apr 2016 #219

The 'Empire of Japan' would no doubt agree with you -- Read the Rape of Nanking. whathehell Apr 2016 #281

An easy dodge. To some, being a superpower means never saying anything but "Sorry" whathehell Apr 2016 #285

Saved hundreds of thousands of lives. tabasco Apr 2016 #7

Your assertion is incorrect . . FairWinds Apr 2016 #10

I'm not buying your arguments at all. Hulk Apr 2016 #31

It really doesn't matter if people deny climate change either... kristopher Apr 2016 #46

Way to stay on point Hulk Apr 2016 #51

No it isn't. kristopher Apr 2016 #53

incorrect ... but unfortunately the CW of several generations of Americans karynnj Apr 2016 #97

there is also the question of why a few days after the first nuclear bomb, they dropped another... EX500rider Apr 2016 #148

True, but were three days enough or is it possible that a week or two might have led to surrender karynnj Apr 2016 #150

30 yrs ago I met a friend of a friend of and both were WW II vets and one had been a ... Botany Apr 2016 #11

Ever see 'Unbroken' Heeeeers Johnny Apr 2016 #19

Have they ever apologized for the Rape of Nanking... Heeeeers Johnny Apr 2016 #12

Apologize? They deny it happened! Feeling the Bern Apr 2016 #126

An invasion of Japan would have killed far more lives than the A-bombs did. Odin2005 Apr 2016 #14

Then why did IKE and so many other military leaders FairWinds Apr 2016 #18

Don't confuse them with facts. ForgoTheConsequence Apr 2016 #27

How convenient that the one scenario where it's OK to use nukes is the time we used them. arcane1 Apr 2016 #40

Of course. ForgoTheConsequence Apr 2016 #45

Ike was a pure asshole. Dawson Leery Apr 2016 #49

Ike theater was Europe, his opinion here is just that. EX500rider Apr 2016 #82

Ike an the others didn't have an issue with incinerating civilians via firebombing Kaleva Apr 2016 #118

I've known a lot of WWII vets in my time, even my father who fought the Japanese braddy Apr 2016 #178

+1 Hekate Apr 2016 #194

Thank you -- Same here. whathehell Apr 2016 #286

I might not be here now 47of74 Apr 2016 #116

Don't start no shit, won't be no shit. nt Codeine Apr 2016 #17

So you would be ok with Iraq dropping a bomb on America? ForgoTheConsequence Apr 2016 #28

What would the US do if someone threw up a naval blockade of our oil imports in 1969? kristopher Apr 2016 #48

Nonsense, you are the one who need to read some. EX500rider Apr 2016 #83

Economic sanctions not a blockade hack89 Apr 2016 #96

I didn't say they were. kristopher Apr 2016 #120

Not only oil, but scrap metal and technology. oneshooter Apr 2016 #200

"It is estimated that out of every 6 deaths in the bombings, 5 were civilians and 1 was military." rug Apr 2016 #20

thats how wars were fought in 1950 Travis_0004 Apr 2016 #62

40's :P PersonNumber503602 Apr 2016 #70

87% civilian casulaties does not balance the hq of a starving army. rug Apr 2016 #80

How many of those civilians gladium et scutum Apr 2016 #119

"I ask you: Do you want total war? rug Apr 2016 #136

It is not a matter of what I want gladium et scutum Apr 2016 #161

Rosie the Riveter is not Enola Gay. rug Apr 2016 #162

Correct, but gladium et scutum Apr 2016 #163

There is quite a gap between pacifism and war crimes. rug Apr 2016 #165

Easily said gladium et scutum Apr 2016 #170

That might make sense if wars were still fought with the sword and shield. rug Apr 2016 #171

I do not defend total war gladium et scutum Apr 2016 #173

Yes, you do. rug Apr 2016 #174

I do look at it that way gladium et scutum Apr 2016 #175

No, we didn't have to follow LBJ and we didn't have to drop the bomb. rug Apr 2016 #176

The American Flag gladium et scutum Apr 2016 #179

You're giving me flashbacks. rug Apr 2016 #197

International law during World War II did not specifically forbid aerial bombardment of cities. EX500rider Apr 2016 #211

Oh, in that case it's all better. rug Apr 2016 #214

Something is either illegal or it's not. In this case not. EX500rider Apr 2016 #215

Only if you ignore the prohibition against indiscriminate murder of civilians. rug Apr 2016 #217

100% of all the Rape of Nanking victims were civilians Feeling the Bern Apr 2016 #261

Is that a rationale for committing another one eight years later? rug Apr 2016 #273

Live with the victims and their families as long as I and you fail to feel sympathy Feeling the Bern Apr 2016 #275

Revenge makes shitty politics. rug Apr 2016 #276

Still not a word about the Japanese human experimentation in Unit 731, the Three All's policy Feeling the Bern Apr 2016 #278

Unsurprising since Hiroshima is the topic of the OP. rug Apr 2016 #279

The bomb and Kerry's refusal to apologize provokes the Japanese War Crimes Feeling the Bern Apr 2016 #283

I would walk down Main Street accosting random Chinese residents about the Nanking Massacre. rug Apr 2016 #284

Every year we get into this battle. Archae Apr 2016 #21

You really aren't well informed. kristopher Apr 2016 #50

Someone is certainly not well informed.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #86

In early 1944 the Department of the Army ordered oneshooter Apr 2016 #95

"You are parroting the victor's sanitized version of history" EX500rider Apr 2016 #89

My post was not "Rah Rah USA" Archae Apr 2016 #92

Let's see... kristopher Apr 2016 #93

The fact that you think their was a "naval blockade" of Japan before the war.... EX500rider Apr 2016 #114

You are mistaken about what I think, and most other things on this topic kristopher Apr 2016 #135

Quote from you "What would the US do if someone threw up a naval blockade of our oil imports in 1969 EX500rider Apr 2016 #147

I made a legitimate argument in a legitimate form kristopher Apr 2016 #152

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2016 #206

You really think the US had a economic embargo against the Japanese in place.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #210

"I made a legitimate argument in a legitimate form" EX500rider Apr 2016 #212

Usually it's in early August. roamer65 Apr 2016 #105

Thanks. The rewrite of history at DU continues unabated. It is appalling. Hekate Apr 2016 #195

Let me just hazard a few guesses . . FairWinds Apr 2016 #23

Yep. ForgoTheConsequence Apr 2016 #33

I think you fundamentally misunderstand TeddyR Apr 2016 #107

Veterans For Peace understands . . FairWinds Apr 2016 #246

I just wish we could have dropped an atom bomb on Berlin, Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #64

Interesting thought of what would have happened if the US had the bomb goldent Apr 2016 #72

"Violation of the law"? TeddyR Apr 2016 #110

whether you think incinerating civilians "worked" or not. It is in violation of the law. EX500rider Apr 2016 #213

Wrong again . . FairWinds Apr 2016 #245

Not so fast... branford Apr 2016 #247

Hey X500 and Branford . . FairWinds Apr 2016 #251

My prior comment only concerned the technical legalities of the use of the atomic bombs. branford Apr 2016 #271

No, not really: EX500rider Apr 2016 #248

Why apologize for ending a war of aggression that committed many documented atrocities? GummyBearz Apr 2016 #24

Another ignoramus masquerading as a "progressive". ForgoTheConsequence Apr 2016 #29

" . . a war of aggression that committed many documented atrocities" FairWinds Apr 2016 #30

I'm glad Obama found a way to end the Iraq war GummyBearz Apr 2016 #34

The US invaded Chile and Brazil? When? EX500rider Apr 2016 #115

Covert wars of aggression against . . FairWinds Apr 2016 #117

I am quite aware of history.... EX500rider Apr 2016 #124

a bomb is a bomb is a bomb unless you are positioning yourself as some sort of victim instead of msongs Apr 2016 #35

I agree. Hulk Apr 2016 #41

The pro left, the west can never do any right crowd has taken over this thread. Dawson Leery Apr 2016 #39

They haven't taken it over... Hulk Apr 2016 #44

OH NO! LEFT WING IDEAS ON A DEMOCRATIC MESSAGEBOARD? ForgoTheConsequence Apr 2016 #47

Speaking of the Bataan Death March, back when I used to work, ... JustABozoOnThisBus Apr 2016 #216

My only regret Angel Martin Apr 2016 #56

I agree but there was a point not to do that GummyBearz Apr 2016 #85

Nazis already had surrendered to the Soviet Supreme command 4 months earlier :p MillennialDem Apr 2016 #125

Sobering footage: Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #63

If those cities were leveled by conventional bombings, would that require an apology? PersonNumber503602 Apr 2016 #67

Yup. Is there a call for apologizing for Dresden? Berlin? Adrahil Apr 2016 #274

Compared to what Japan did to China, they got off lightly. Zynx Apr 2016 #68

He shouldn't apologize. Turin_C3PO Apr 2016 #81

Indeed. They could have dropped it on Tokyo TexasBushwhacker Apr 2016 #158

Now I am all confused, it's not August yet is it?! EX500rider Apr 2016 #87

Columbus was a genocidal maniac. WHY do we have Columbus Day? Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #90

Feels like it with the better to kill millions whistler162 Apr 2016 #98

Haven't seen any of that... EX500rider Apr 2016 #109

Why would he? ileus Apr 2016 #94

Trendy goldent Apr 2016 #103

If the US Empire ever started apologizing for war crimes.... guillaumeb Apr 2016 #101

I got the same crap about being . . FairWinds Apr 2016 #106

There's nothing to apologise for. Kaleva Apr 2016 #108

Agreed TeddyR Apr 2016 #111

Go to the Rape of Nanking Memorial and walk out thinking anyone owes Japan an apology for anything Feeling the Bern Apr 2016 #123

No one seems to ever give a shit what the Japanese did in Korea, China, Taiwan Feeling the Bern Apr 2016 #122

The problem is that many on DU blame America for everything wrong in the world Democat Apr 2016 #129

Right wing bullshit ForgoTheConsequence Apr 2016 #138

Yeah, not blaming America for all the world's evil is right wing Democat Apr 2016 #143

The "rape of Nanking" was particularly heinous. Beacool Apr 2016 #156

I worked at the Rape of Nanking Memorial Hall for 2.5 years. Feeling the Bern Apr 2016 #164

Are you and your wife Chinese? Beacool Apr 2016 #167

She was born and raised in Danyang, about 80 miles east of Nanjing. Full blooded Han Chinese Feeling the Bern Apr 2016 #196

I'll never understand the cruelty and evil of people. Beacool Apr 2016 #204

You shouldn't brag about consuming and loving modern Chinese hate fetishizing. Bonobo Apr 2016 #233

Saying how my wife feels is bragging? Feeling the Bern Apr 2016 #244

No, here is your bragging: Bonobo Apr 2016 #263

I think the song is good propaganda. Doesn't mean I like it? And I argue with him about it all the Feeling the Bern Apr 2016 #268

Dude, you said it was your favorite song. On a thread about the 2 nukes dropped on Japan. Bonobo Apr 2016 #270

"Dude, you said it was your favorite song" EX500rider Apr 2016 #293

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2016 #305

You're absolutely right. In fact, atomic bomb was barely a factor in their surrender. Nyan Apr 2016 #252

The Japanese high command actually attempted to overthrown Hirohito and confiscate the surrender Feeling the Bern Apr 2016 #258

That has been a traditional approach to this. And it has been pretty much debunked by Nyan Apr 2016 #262

Mass murder of civilians? Why should we apologize for that? nt Bonobo Apr 2016 #131

When they apologize for murdering 28 million Chinese citizens and all the war crimes they Feeling the Bern Apr 2016 #259

They have apologized over and over. And they did not murder 28 million citizens. Bonobo Apr 2016 #264

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2016 #265

Death threat guy, you make me laugh. Bonobo Apr 2016 #266

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2016 #290

You do realize I worked at the Rape of Nanking museum for almost three years. Feeling the Bern Apr 2016 #267

I just responded when you said your favorite song was an "anti-Japanese song". Bonobo Apr 2016 #269

Might want to re-read that as he said no such thing. EX500rider Apr 2016 #294

I totally misread it. nt Bonobo Apr 2016 #297

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2016 #303

Obama's decision. truthisfreedom Apr 2016 #132

oh my god forjusticethunders Apr 2016 #137

Japan's Unit 731 was getting a Plague Bomb ready Herman4747 Apr 2016 #139

Nor should he. They started it. closeupready Apr 2016 #141

And we finished it. Travis_0004 Apr 2016 #177

What's going on here . . FairWinds Apr 2016 #145

Rather than relitigating yesterday's argument, why not read what Secretary actually did and said karynnj Apr 2016 #149

Nonsense. It wasn't an easy decision. closeupready Apr 2016 #181

Where do you stand on Japan's war crimes? apnu Apr 2016 #203

My dad was in Borneo when the peace time sneak attack on Pearl harbor was made. braddy Apr 2016 #153

Has Japan ASKED for an apology? No? then I don't see the need. We all know it was a horrible vkkv Apr 2016 #160

Seriously John? ozone_man Apr 2016 #166

What genocide did the American military conduct against the Indians? braddy Apr 2016 #172

Many and over centuries. ozone_man Apr 2016 #180

That isn't an answer to my question, when did the American military conduct a genocide braddy Apr 2016 #182

One example is Wounded Knee ozone_man Apr 2016 #199

Again, not genocide braddy Apr 2016 #201

Genocide has a broader meaning. ozone_man Apr 2016 #230

It's too broad for me, if fighting and war is now genocide, then it was just about all genocide. braddy Apr 2016 #235

Fair enough. ozone_man Apr 2016 #253

I think largely in terms as a soldier and a lifelong student of military history, starting to braddy Apr 2016 #257

Massacre/genocide not the same thing. EX500rider Apr 2016 #295

Your question is so ill-informed . . FairWinds Apr 2016 #183

I'm a military history buff and an American Army veteran, and it is a legitimate question. braddy Apr 2016 #184

OK Mr. Braddy . . FairWinds Apr 2016 #185

I read that and many others, I also grew up reading of Hitler and genocide against the Jews, it braddy Apr 2016 #186

Well, um, where the heck were you in March, 2003 . . FairWinds Apr 2016 #187

I think of genocide as trying to physically erase a people to death, such as Hitler practicing braddy Apr 2016 #188

Well, you can think what you want about genocide, but . . FairWinds Apr 2016 #189

If we call a battle genocide or a small war genocide, then what do we call Hitler's actual braddy Apr 2016 #190

Hitler's mass murder . . FairWinds Apr 2016 #191

Hitler was only third to the mass murderers of the 20th century, but again, mass murder braddy Apr 2016 #192

Nothing to apologize for. We rebuilt the country & made them a 1st world country. GOLGO 13 Apr 2016 #207

To be fair, I think they were "civilized" prior to the war. JustABozoOnThisBus Apr 2016 #218

Very ugly story tailored to titilate those who are nearly drowning in general hatred. Judi Lynn Apr 2016 #223

I don't know what you were reading.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #225

You seem to have missed the point. Sad. n/t Judi Lynn Apr 2016 #228

Jingoistic Americans just love to incinerate the "other's" children . . FairWinds Apr 2016 #243

Didn't seem to be a point. EX500rider Apr 2016 #249