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limpyhobbler

(8,244 posts)
103. what should they call it then?
Sat Dec 31, 2011, 10:15 PM
Dec 2011

Due process is required. Period.


The minimum of "due process" is:
A decision by a secretive military tribunal where normal standards of evidence and proof do not apply,
where there is no presumption of innocence, there may in fact be a presumption of guilt, and where the right to defend oneself is significantly less than it would be in a normal court, as there may be no opportunity to subpoena witnesses and evidence. A defense attorney may be required but the accused does not have a right to "an attorney of their choosing" as they would in a civilian court. They get whatever lawyer the tribunal appoints.

Do you find this to be a good standard for American citizens accused of supporting a terrorist organization?


I would, however, also quibble with "indefinite" detention.
The duration of detention is defined by specific parameters.
It has been defined, and thus, is not "indefinite", nor is it "unlimited".

What is the limit? Do you mean until the end of hostilities authorized by the AUMF (Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists)? Seems like that could go on for a long time. The end of that authorization is undefined, no? What would be a better way to describe this type of detention besides "indefinite detention"?


Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

blah blah blah, on with the Police State. ixion Dec 2011 #1
You got it izquierdista Dec 2011 #22
*Change* we can believe in, right? Donnachaidh Dec 2011 #71
Correct. I won't bother emilyg Dec 2011 #73
A signing apology? Fuck you! Fuddnik Jan 2012 #144
blah blah blah, on with the tyranny of those who have no responsibility to protect millions of lives patrice Jan 2012 #146
If you're somehow positing that people with no power (i.e. 'responsibility') are capable of tyranny, ixion Jan 2012 #147
False dichotomy/zero-sum = with power:"with no power". Your self-characterization is somewhat in patrice Jan 2012 #154
power as motive? Hardly. I post to express my concern over the loss of civil liberties. ixion Jan 2012 #157
If nothing else LanternWaste Jan 2012 #169
thanks Angry Dragon Dec 2011 #2
Thanks for posting this. demosincebirth Dec 2011 #3
This part: jaxx Dec 2011 #4
Agree, but future presidents may not be so thoughtful. nm rhett o rick Dec 2011 #7
Doesn't this have to be renewed annually? Ruby the Liberal Dec 2011 #80
"we are only continuing to enforce laws already on the books" quakerboy Jan 2012 #131
Don't believe it does. Authorizations acts primarily couple with Appropriations laws to allocate 24601 Jan 2012 #143
"my administration" JDPriestly Dec 2011 #13
Exactly right. colorado_ufo Dec 2011 #67
Why detain, if he can just kill them without trial? Does he say anything about Fool Count Dec 2011 #70
That comment made me LOL. jaxx Dec 2011 #104
well said Charlemagne Dec 2011 #105
Bingo. And the logic that AUMF trumps constitutional rights is THE SAME. DirkGently Jan 2012 #164
This message was self-deleted by its author DirkGently Jan 2012 #165
well, bless his heart Donnachaidh Dec 2011 #72
Yeah, and once upon a time he said he'd veto this bill. dflprincess Dec 2011 #93
Watch what they do, not what they say. dixiegrrrrl Dec 2011 #101
Exactly. dflprincess Dec 2011 #116
Obama said he'd veto the bill IF the language was not changed, and Tx4obama Jan 2012 #132
The ACLU remains against this bill dflprincess Jan 2012 #162
I find this terribly disturbing. rhett o rick Dec 2011 #5
"existing court interpretations that allow the arrest and indefinite detention of American citizens" boppers Dec 2011 #12
Ssh. Hamdi is inconvenient to the narrative. Robb Dec 2011 #24
I dont find these words very reassuring. rhett o rick Dec 2011 #41
Padilla got his due process, trial, and sentence. boppers Dec 2011 #94
What framework? He was still arrested and detained illegally. That still needs to be rhett o rick Dec 2011 #98
Okay, lets discuss this. boppers Dec 2011 #102
I am sorry but your point is lost on me. Are you suggesting that what happened to Padilla rhett o rick Jan 2012 #151
So you are ok with the courts decision that our liberty is protected by rhett o rick Jan 2012 #152
In hamdi v. rumsfeld the court required due process. That's why Bush admin set up the tribunals. limpyhobbler Dec 2011 #74
Then, the point being made needs to reflect that. boppers Dec 2011 #88
what should they call it then? limpyhobbler Dec 2011 #103
Damn, well stated Charlemagne Dec 2011 #107
Well put. boppers Dec 2011 #120
In Hamdi the court said it was ok to skip due process if ok via an rhett o rick Jan 2012 #161
Cannot agree with the "Bravo" part. truedelphi Dec 2011 #18
I understand. It is a small victory. At least he says he wont arrest and detain American citizens rhett o rick Dec 2011 #42
"At least" doesn't mean anything. "At least" is forever - unless there is a chance in peacetalksforall Dec 2011 #84
I agree it isnt much. But unlike a lot of other things, he did speak out. Whether he sticks to it rhett o rick Dec 2011 #100
Veto discocrisco01 Dec 2011 #6
Agree. But his own party was against him. nm rhett o rick Dec 2011 #8
I know. This is not the bill Obama would have written. Shameful that he didn't have gateley Dec 2011 #60
Just think with a GOP majority what the next bill will look like. freshwest Dec 2011 #109
+ 1. n/t truedelphi Dec 2011 #19
Its less than a year till the elections so do you really think it wise to make it easier for the GOP cstanleytech Dec 2011 #21
So by your reasoning, we elect A Democat to serve as the President but he must truedelphi Dec 2011 #25
You raise an excellent point RC Dec 2011 #36
If so many democrats in the senate and congress hadnt supported it he probably could have. cstanleytech Dec 2011 #40
That is why the President has veto power over Congress. RC Dec 2011 #45
Not an infinite version though as cstanleytech Dec 2011 #51
So a Congress of right leaning (D)'s & (R)'s does not scare you? RC Dec 2011 #54
No it doesnt scare me......concern, yes but hopefully we can fix the problem eventually. cstanleytech Dec 2011 #82
Please see comment #133 n/t Tx4obama Jan 2012 #134
Its an issue of pragmatism or can you honestly say that if he had vetoed it that cstanleytech Dec 2011 #37
The problem with your argument is that truedelphi Dec 2011 #56
Well your entitled to that opinion of course however I dont believe cstanleytech Dec 2011 #113
No, they are hopelessly idealistic and everything is a battle to the brink treestar Dec 2011 #106
Ive seen Op-Eds on Faux News Charlemagne Dec 2011 #108
He took an oath to "preserve, protect and defend" the Constitution dflprincess Dec 2011 #118
Sadly we live in an age of pragmatic politicans, though truedelphi Jan 2012 #121
And he is doing so because SCOTUS so far has cstanleytech Jan 2012 #125
You are right. We have to deal with the reality of the situation. nt gateley Dec 2011 #62
And by going along with it, they will not run ridiculously false ads against the president? quakerboy Jan 2012 #138
For many people, personal and ethical convictions outweigh political conveniences LanternWaste Jan 2012 #170
Integrity..........in politics? Since when? cstanleytech Jan 2012 #173
Ah, but you're forgetting this important point ... Tx4obama Jan 2012 #133
Expediency over constitution - got it. TBF Jan 2012 #140
By signing it, Obama goes along with it. RC Jan 2012 #141
ask Anwar al -Awlaki's 16 year old (& a US citizen) son,murdered in separate drone attack on Obama's stockholmer Dec 2011 #9
Just giving the man what he wants. Robb Dec 2011 #26
That young man's death resonates with me the same way truedelphi Dec 2011 #27
I think perhaps some research is in order so that you'll have the facts. Tx4obama Dec 2011 #47
By that logic, my very good friend in the seventies, KW, truedelphi Dec 2011 #53
I was suggesting that YOU go and do some research. Tx4obama Dec 2011 #57
research says...... extrajudicial murder stockholmer Dec 2011 #63
My real name Charlemagne Dec 2011 #110
You say: truedelphi Jan 2012 #122
Anwar al -Awlaki's 16 year old son was NOT the target of that drone, A TERRORIST WAS Tx4obama Dec 2011 #31
Don't you just love the lengths the Obama excusers go to justify our atrocities? RC Dec 2011 #38
Yes, he did know they were his father's terrorists buddies Tx4obama Dec 2011 #46
What are WE doing "fighting terrorism" in other countries? If you look at the history, the RC Dec 2011 #52
Standing Ovation OKDem08 Jan 2012 #129
RC makes a good point Charlemagne Dec 2011 #112
The 16 year old son was NOT assassinated and he was NOT the target of the drone. Tx4obama Dec 2011 #117
but his dad was Charlemagne Dec 2011 #119
His dad was also posting video online advocating for jihad if I recall cstanleytech Jan 2012 #126
"I dont see him turning himself in if he was working with bin ladens people, do you?" Charlemagne Jan 2012 #128
Well feel free to update us when the SCOTUS cstanleytech Jan 2012 #130
"do not HANG AROUND with al Qaeda terrorists!" unless of course they are Libyan 'freedom fighters' stockholmer Dec 2011 #64
This message was self-deleted by its author Tesha Dec 2011 #85
Sorry, in my opinion, your statement is so ridiculous that I'm not even going to address it. n/t Tx4obama Dec 2011 #86
This message was self-deleted by its author Tesha Dec 2011 #90
He never got a trial Charlemagne Dec 2011 #111
I think it sounds reasonable and prudent OKNancy Dec 2011 #10
to put trust in any politician is a mistake bowens43 Dec 2011 #14
I feel the same way. And politicians are more "politicians" than truedelphi Dec 2011 #23
Eliminating Posse Comitatus and Habeus Corpus is prudent and reasonable? Uhm, no, it isn't. ixion Dec 2011 #15
Over and over again, Obama shows us that he is a truedelphi Dec 2011 #28
Agreed....and once you give "it" up you're not gonna get it back. Magoo48 Dec 2011 #55
Dateline, 2008 Charlemagne Dec 2011 #114
Well then, you will agree to be the first when he, or another President, do not? webDude Dec 2011 #16
LOL - yes I'm a super-duper agent here to OKNancy Dec 2011 #20
The signing statement is posturing. The legislation is what matters. ixion Dec 2011 #32
Not true. Igel Dec 2011 #69
Yes, it true, I'm afraid. ixion Dec 2011 #83
Well done. I anticipate repubs in congress will soon have their knickers all in a twist over this. lamp_shade Dec 2011 #11
The truly horrifying question about our democracy Gringostan Dec 2011 #17
You Are N-A-I-L-I-N-G truedelphi Dec 2011 #30
so he has reservations because of restrictions on his options magical thyme Dec 2011 #29
What about past administrations? boppers Dec 2011 #35
They didnt always say no, check out Executive Order 9066 cstanleytech Dec 2011 #49
Stare decisis. boppers Dec 2011 #99
Its even harder to defend cstanleytech Jan 2012 #127
As predicted the signing contests restrictions on the executive branch. Warren Stupidity Dec 2011 #33
This: FarLeftFist Dec 2011 #34
Obama signed this unconstitutional dreck, which is evidence he needs to be primaried. RC Dec 2011 #43
Yup. Looks like a few folks here didn't bother to read the whole thing. lamp_shade Dec 2011 #44
So he signs our warrants Charlemagne Dec 2011 #61
sounds like extortion limpyhobbler Dec 2011 #68
"seek the repeal of any provisions that undermine the policies and values that have guided my Admin" stockholmer Dec 2011 #75
"seek the repeal of any provisions that undermine the policies and values that have guided my Admin" Charlemagne Dec 2011 #79
Obama ur not JFK, Clinton, FDR or anything of the above.... BenYehuda Dec 2011 #39
None of them have been perfect sadly. cstanleytech Dec 2011 #48
A signing statement? A friggin signing statement? James48 Dec 2011 #50
as long as he can still blow up middle eastern people with drones, he is good..... IamK Dec 2011 #58
Of COURSE he voted for it. He has to do what his masters on Wall Street tell him to do. lib2DaBone Dec 2011 #59
Should have been vetoed - TBF Dec 2011 #65
This is not what I voted for Pavlo Dec 2011 #76
I just said I disagreed with passing this legislation in it's present form - TBF Dec 2011 #81
Me either. joshcryer Dec 2011 #95
It's far deeper than one president - TBF Dec 2011 #96
I was genuinely pissed that he threatened the veto and then pulled back. joshcryer Dec 2011 #97
Please see comment #133 n/t Tx4obama Jan 2012 #135
wait till the spring when the real protests begin... Javaman Dec 2011 #66
where this is really gonna kick the US citizens in the teeth is under Jeb Bush in 2017 (or 2013, if stockholmer Dec 2011 #78
were the Charlemagne Dec 2011 #77
Click the link below if you want to read a GREAT article regarding Obama's signing statement & bill Tx4obama Dec 2011 #87
So he won't detain and torture Americans but other administrations might, ahhh OK, sure. just1voice Dec 2011 #89
BUT RON PAUL SAYS HE'S ANTI WAR. joshcryer Dec 2011 #91
Should have been veto'd but had no doubt it wouldn't. Obama has governed the same as the harun Dec 2011 #92
Please see comment #133 on the current thread. Tx4obama Jan 2012 #136
"The fact that I support this bill as a whole does not mean I agree with everything in it." RUMMYisFROSTED Dec 2011 #115
Weaselly indeed Charlemagne Jan 2012 #123
To veto, or not to veto the appropriation bill funding our national defense cheapdate Jan 2012 #124
that's one of the greatest OPPORTUNITIES handed to the president in decades... mike_c Jan 2012 #149
Good point... cheapdate Jan 2012 #153
And on a minor note. fasttense Jan 2012 #137
Health care provisions are in Title VII of the bill. cheapdate Jan 2012 #155
I don't see references to Sec 1031 & 1032 fredamae Jan 2012 #139
I think they got renumbered in the final version. limpyhobbler Jan 2012 #142
Ahh, Thanks..That could be it as the fredamae Jan 2012 #145
lame.... mike_c Jan 2012 #148
THIS is what supposedly makes it okay? He's griping it doesn't give ENOUGH power to the Executive. DirkGently Jan 2012 #150
Yes but not in the same way Bush wanted more powers. cstanleytech Jan 2012 #156
Nothing wrong with the sentiment. But he never says the law doesn't permit indefinite detention DirkGently Jan 2012 #159
I thought he addressed that in the part where he said cstanleytech Jan 2012 #160
Not when it's argued AUMF allows indefinite detention, and summary execution, of American citizens. DirkGently Jan 2012 #163
Perhaps I am mistaken will you quote please where it says in the AUMF cstanleytech Jan 2012 #166
REALLY? humbled_opinion Jan 2012 #158
Odd. There's nothing humble about your ability to predict "reality". patrice Jan 2012 #167
Do you deny that humbled_opinion Jan 2012 #168
He is a CONSTITUtional Lawyer!!! lovuian Jan 2012 #171
Come up to speed. Major Hogwash Jan 2012 #172
Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #174
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