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alp227

(33,429 posts) Fri Jul 13, 2012, 02:34 PM Jul 2012

Angela Merkel intervenes over court ban on circumcision of young boys (in Germany) [View all]

Last edited Fri Jul 13, 2012, 03:54 PM - Edit history (1)

Source: The Guardian

Angela Merkel's spokesman has promised Germany's Jewish and Muslim communities they will be free to carry out circumcision on young boys, despite a court ban that has raised concerns about religious freedom.

The government said it would find a way around a ban imposed by a court in Cologne in June as a matter of urgency.

"For everyone in the government it is absolutely clear that we want to have Jewish and Muslim religious life in Germany," said Merkel's spokesman, Steffen Seibert. "Circumcision carried out in a responsible manner must be possible in this country without punishment."

Ruling in the case of a Muslim boy taken to a doctor with bleeding after circumcision, the Cologne regional court said the practice inflicted bodily harm and should not be carried out on young boys but could be practised on older males who gave consent. The ruling applies to the city and surrounding districts.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/13/angela-merkel-intervenes-ban-circumcision

Meanwhile, Israel has also condemned the anti circumcision law.

212 replies

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Highlight:

Angela Merkel intervenes over court ban on circumcision of young boys (in Germany) [View all] alp227 Jul 2012 OP

Child abuse in the name of religious freedom a2liberal Jul 2012 #1

For alot of people it's not religion as to why they do this LynneSin Jul 2012 #6

There's a huge difference between cutting off a useless flap of sensitive, nerve-filled skin Trillo Jul 2012 #2

Well, cutting off hands... awoke_in_2003 Jul 2012 #27

It is not useless. xfundy Jul 2012 #134

what? backwoodsbob Jul 2012 #146

Pile-driver men have nothing to do with a skin flap. boppers Jul 2012 #148

Cosmetic surgery on a nonconsenting child... Scootaloo Jul 2012 #3

cosmetic surgery... awoke_in_2003 Jul 2012 #28

Is there a limit to "religious freedom" in Germany? Renew Deal Jul 2012 #4

FGM is COMPLETELY different kurtzapril4 Jul 2012 #18

What about human sacrifice? Renew Deal Jul 2012 #19

Do some research on kurtzapril4 Jul 2012 #21

Besides marginalizing circumcision.... Renew Deal Jul 2012 #22

You keep changing the subject. kurtzapril4 Jul 2012 #32

The subject is religious freedom. Renew Deal Jul 2012 #35

Its not that different. Minors being genitally modified without consent. riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #49

It is comparable, actually Scootaloo Jul 2012 #46

It is not comparable dflprincess Jul 2012 #107

We don'thave nearly enough information to decide that riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #110

According to WHO the "ritual nicking of the clitoral hood" is very rare dflprincess Jul 2012 #119

I'm not going to argue the moral gradations of FGM severity on this thread riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #121

Along with hair cuts, ear piercings, wart removals, etc. boppers Jul 2012 #149

Explained downthread. Scootaloo Jul 2012 #175

"whole societies", you say? boppers Jul 2012 #182

Already covered it Scootaloo Jul 2012 #183

Yeah, it's unethical, and should be illegal, by I see a possible flaw in your hypothesis... boppers Jul 2012 #192

Did you read my post? Scootaloo Jul 2012 #174

yes, and both are barbaric. nt awoke_in_2003 Jul 2012 #30

It's true. FGM involves removing a portion of the genitals for bizarre religious reasons 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #73

FGM is more the result of cultural or societal norms rather than religious dflprincess Jul 2012 #106

Circumcision is done here mainly for health reasons. xtraxritical Jul 2012 #5

Exactly. It's not an issue of religion. It's an issue of lowering the chances of my kids getting an E-Z-B Jul 2012 #8

Do you live in Burkina Faso? Scootaloo Jul 2012 #10

You really gotta wonder reorg Jul 2012 #24

Little bit TMI there, dude n/t Scootaloo Jul 2012 #45

Boy, you are droll. xtraxritical Jul 2012 #25

I'm also correct Scootaloo Jul 2012 #44

You sure have a lot of time to waste on snark. May I suggest a hobby? Bonobo Jul 2012 #47

That's the dumbest argument I've seen presented in defense of child abuse, ever. Scootaloo Jul 2012 #52

You just ignored the brutal reality for most of the world (again) Bonobo Jul 2012 #63

Oh yes, this argument... Scootaloo Jul 2012 #64

Your whole snark-ument was that it is easy to wash. Bonobo Jul 2012 #65

You're not paying attention Scootaloo Jul 2012 #70

Okay, let me try again. Bonobo Jul 2012 #100

Keep trying Scootaloo Jul 2012 #177

Blisteringly patronizing response, always popular in a circumcision thread. boppers Jul 2012 #150

"Useless" ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jul 2012 #34

Hypothetically, if it could be shown that hacking away at various parts of the female 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #74

Well you don't know any better Boxcar Willie Jul 2012 #75

Thank you, Angela Merkel. JDPriestly Jul 2012 #7

"no compelling reason to prohibit people from doing it"???? alp227 Jul 2012 #9

Parents are the boss when it comes to their kids. End of story. harun Jul 2012 #12

Upbringing yes, grievous bodily modifications no. alp227 Jul 2012 #13

My parents had that philosophy Scootaloo Jul 2012 #14

I hear you Sootaloo Skittles Jul 2012 #152

OK then, lets start hacking off their ears because..."parents are the boss when it comes to their Purveyor Jul 2012 #15

People like you give Liberals a bad name. harun Jul 2012 #43

Yes, on some issues that is the case and its not arrogant or anti-liberty riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #55

No, slicing up your kids for aesthetic reasons is intrusive and anti-liberty Scootaloo Jul 2012 #56

Maybe we should wait until they are 18 before cutting their umbilical cord, harun Jul 2012 #69

A haircut is equal to carving away living tissue on a boy's penis Scootaloo Jul 2012 #71

So, if foreskins fell off, say, at three months, would that be a problem? eom boppers Jul 2012 #151

We all have beliefs harun Jul 2012 #160

wrong reorg Jul 2012 #16

No, they're not. Especially when it comes to harmful practices. nt riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #42

please explain how you believe this is "reminiscent of the Third Reich" reorg Jul 2012 #17

Last I heard kurtzapril4 Jul 2012 #20

irrelevant reorg Jul 2012 #23

I think your hasty generalisation of "irrelevent" is not relevent. xtraxritical Jul 2012 #26

I think you didn't read my post reorg Jul 2012 #29

"STD are of no concern to small children. " boppers Jul 2012 #154

And then the grown up can decide whether to get the procedure done themselves riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #168

In what society do people not have *any* sexual activity before becoming a legal adult? boppers Jul 2012 #179

why are you against masturbation? reorg Jul 2012 #186

Use condoms. Seems to be a pretty standard line to give any teen, girls and boys. nt riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #190

Priests seem to oppose it. boppers Jul 2012 #197

Oh, was there a study done on the percentage of rapes by Catholic priests with and without condoms? riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #200

Sorry, but long-term studies trumps your anecdotal evidence E-Z-B Jul 2012 #36

sorry, there are no studies reorg Jul 2012 #37

"I never had any STD because I know how to protect myself." boppers Jul 2012 #153

That and related "research" is really flawed unc70 Jul 2012 #66

Of course there's reason to prohibit it. It has killed children. It permanently disfigures them. riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #41

Good for her. harun Jul 2012 #11

Free the foreskins! Canuckistanian Jul 2012 #31

I am! kurtzapril4 Jul 2012 #33

Government knows best! AJTheMan Jul 2012 #38

How about female genital circumcision? Families still know best? riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #39

If that's what they want to do, then that is their right to do it. We don't need a big brother gov't AJTheMan Jul 2012 #48

Okay, so please speak up on the next "38 lb 12 year old found in dog cage" story riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #51

Thanks for the welcome. AJTheMan Jul 2012 #53

Noted that you have no answers. nt riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #57

Post removed Post removed Jul 2012 #58

Who let the Libertararians onto DU? Scootaloo Jul 2012 #59

This is about parents making decisions for minor children, not adult women riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #60

You authoritarinan "government knows best" types disgust me. AJTheMan Jul 2012 #61

Bye! Thank gawd. riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #62

I agree with you and according to a poll taken here awhle back so do 80% of DU members Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #68

Here come all the posters who suddenly care about YOUR kids...nt Bonobo Jul 2012 #40

Right. Because parents should be allowed to do anything they like to their kids. Nye Bevan Jul 2012 #167

Idiot. Fearless Jul 2012 #50

Good for her. Behind the Aegis Jul 2012 #54

I'm glad I was circumcised and I am glad this right is being defended Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #67

People's notions of "rights" and "staying out of a families business" seem to change radically 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #76

right off hand I would say that removing a clitoris is considerably more invasive than removing a Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #78

I would say that removing a hand is worse than removing a finger 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #82

there are lots of things parents decide for their children Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #83

Generally they aren't allowed to make decisions that leave permanent scars 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #85

my parents did many things that I wish they hadn't done. But having me circumcised is not one that Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #87

I guess I really need to ask: why are you so opposed to getting consent first 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #92

describing male circumcision as disfiguring or as mutilation is disingenuous to the extreme Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #93

Def: 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #95

I never, never, never indicated that I'm opposed to asking someone's consent Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #96

You have supported childhood MGM 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #98

as with any elective medical procedure I believe that parental consent should always be required Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #102

But parents can and often are, blinded by tradition and their consent is actually damaging riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #104

no, I don't think parents should be able to make decision in regards to things like child marriage, Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #108

Genital cutting is not a blood test or nursery school selection. riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #112

they don't cut the genitals - just the foreskin Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #116

Gosh, they don't actually cut the genitals on girls, its just the foreskin. riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #117

on girls they cut off the clitoris - that's totally different - I'm against it Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #122

Nope. You're wrong. FGM isnt cutting off the clitoris. riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #123

as I understand it - the procedure with girls is meant to remove the ability to enjoy genital Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #125

Can you point me to a study that pinpoints the exquisiteness of sex riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #126

I don't think there is anything wrong with male circumcision - but it's a family matter none of my Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #127

What you personally, anecdotally think, doesn't matter. You're aligning with cultural relativism riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #128

Perhaps you should advise the Obama campaign to promise a ban on male circumcision? Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #129

Won't be the first time. I also support legal banning of burqas. riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #131

just how invasive of an authoritarian state will people be willing to accept? Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #135

If it is cultural relativism to believe that somethings are wrong and somethings are not particularly Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #130

The overwhelming majority of Americans used to also believe slavery was okay riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #132

sorry, but I just don't see the moral equivalency between slavery and male circumcision Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #133

are you saying that Jews who have their children circumcised should be forcibly stopped and if they Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #136

Yes, just like we do with those who practice FGM. Removing body parts should be an riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #162

To remove the clitoris would require major surgery. boppers Jul 2012 #156

The foreskin isn't part of the genitals now? 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #139

I work in an NICU I have seen the procedure countless times - it really is no big deal Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #141

You said they don't cut the genitals, just the foreskin 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #166

Explain how your argument in favor of MGM could not also be used in 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #137

describing male circumcision as MGM is cynical and disingenuous and crazy talk Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #140

seems like you're conveniently dodging the question reorg Jul 2012 #144

the only authoritarians here are those who are demanding that the state micromanages personal family Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #145

you should try and find out what authoritarian means reorg Jul 2012 #147

let me ask you ..would you suggest that Jews who have their children circumcised should be forcibly Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #142

Yes, just like we do with those who practice FGM. Removing body parts should be an riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #161

Body deformations can be removed without penalty of law. boppers Jul 2012 #155

You may want to look up the meaning of "deformation" 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #165

Yeah, I know what it means. boppers Jul 2012 #181

have you ever been near a foreskin reorg Jul 2012 #184

1. Yes. boppers Jul 2012 #196

Amazing we managed to survive at all without circumcisions 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #188

Have you been to Europe? boppers Jul 2012 #195

Nope. Apparently it's overrun with disease 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #207

A foreskin is a "body deformation"? Really?? nt riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #169

To some, yes. boppers Jul 2012 #180

To some a clitoris is a disgusting 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #189

Because I like to watch folks go to great lengths defending their personal and social body choices. boppers Jul 2012 #199

You can remake parts of the labia too 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #206

Decisions on permanent body modifications should be made by the individual when they are an adult riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #191

Foreskins can get HPV, and become cancerous. boppers Jul 2012 #198

Yes Sterling Jul 2012 #97

Who gave you the authority to declare this "insignificant"? riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #77

describing male circumcision as maiming or mutilation is cynical and disingenuous to the extreme Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #79

Nobody's supporting empowering the state to control every little private matter -THAT'S disingenuous riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #80

no I don't believe foot binding should be allowed Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #81

The old "it's ok because we've always done this and a lot of people are ok with it" argument 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #84

I don't believe in slavery, putting children in mines or treating women as second class citizens Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #86

You're arguing that it's ok because other things are worse 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #88

well finally comparing it to slavery, or female genital mutilation was not enough we are up to one Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #90

A keen observer will note that I never said any of that 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #91

It's not going to be banned in Europe either and certainly not in the U.S. Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #94

Well since we've already established that government actually DOES stick its nose into other peoples riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #99

call me old fashioned and square but I think decisions about elective medical procedures Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #101

Nope, we've already (jointly) decided, as a society, that's not going to happen (FGM, tattoos etc) riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #103

Parents make lots of decisions for their children on just about everything, Like most people I Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #105

Parents are legally prohibited from making virtually ANY decision about permanent body alterations riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #109

no I don't agree with foot binding or 10y/o marriage or FGM . I don't know anything about the Maori Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #113

Your cultural and religious relativism is showing. Noted. riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #114

well crazy mixed up me! Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #115

There you go, kicking again bud. Thanks! riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #118

Parents are part of most birth defect decisions. boppers Jul 2012 #157

Flip it around: Germany bans female genital mutilation. A male head of state intervenes and says 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #72

Honest ? Sterling Jul 2012 #89

A famous line from "Yes, Prime Minister" Turbineguy Jul 2012 #111

This circumcision ritual..... DeSwiss Jul 2012 #120

Which would imply god is flawed 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #138

It's also an assumption soundly rejected by atheistic beliefs opposed to skin flaps... boppers Jul 2012 #158

Failing to clean your ears can cause health problems 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #163

The domain name says all about their science that I need to know. eom boppers Jul 2012 #178

this site links to a discussion in the NYT reorg Jul 2012 #185

Oh, reader comments! boppers Jul 2012 #194

Attack the source to ignore the content 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #187

Mole removal is also surgery. boppers Jul 2012 #193

Would you agree that cosmetic surgery to enhance the sexual appeal of a child 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #208

I think this is the right decision DVDGuy Jul 2012 #124

Speaking as one who was affected by this procedure, and had no input xfundy Jul 2012 #143

If you are "hurting women in the process", a foreskin wouldn't fix that. boppers Jul 2012 #159

yes, that logic doesn't hold. If anything, it would seem that a foreskin would "hurt women more" not CTyankee Jul 2012 #170

Why would you think a foreskin would hurt women? reorg Jul 2012 #172

Not my idea, believe me. I read it on one of the posts. It seemed strange to me. Go back and CTyankee Jul 2012 #173

If circumcision had never been done before, and one day someone invented a brand new religion, Nye Bevan Jul 2012 #164

Bingo 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #171

The argument is "If you don't want it done to your kids, don't do it." harun Jul 2012 #201

So I guess that argument would also apply to female genital mutilation. Nye Bevan Jul 2012 #205

interesting article about this subject: Tuesday Afternoon Jul 2012 #176

aren't rituals great snooper2 Jul 2012 #202

Christianity and the Feast of the Circumcision of Christ HockeyMom Jul 2012 #203

Nose Jobs Mutiliation too? HockeyMom Jul 2012 #204

It's a celebration of an event in the life of Jesus, not of circumcision itself ButterflyBlood Jul 2012 #210

You can catch flies quicker with honey than with vinegar. Nine Jul 2012 #209

Good point HockeyMom Jul 2012 #211

Well, to clarify... Nine Jul 2012 #212